China..

[Consumer dude]

Is China now a capitalist country ?

[unclebulgaria67]

Semi capitalist, but not an open market for people looking to export to them. They apply tarriffs, making some western goods very expensive and they also block goods being sold at all.

 

What worries me is that UK governments are willing to do deals, without gaining enough access to Chinese markets. Also the amount of copyrighted goods that are copied by Chinese companies without any action by Chinese government. We just seem to accept the investment money from China, just hoping that they will change some of their ways of not being fair trading partners.

[Tawnyowl]

Just whipped this post from someone who lived in China.

Read it and pick at it.

It sounds strange, but China is MORE capitalist than the US. Significantly more. In fact, compared to China America almost looks like a socialist state.

 

China's has very few business regulations. The media is heavily censored, human rights are restricted, but business is far less hogtied by red tape than in the US or Europe.

 

Beijing is a soft touch government as far as environmental laws are concerned, and for copyright, too. There is little corporation tax, and small businesses have far more freedom than in the US (Workers have few rights, zoning laws are relaxed, and many can get away with only paying the barest minimum of tax). So it's easier to set up in business in China than it is in the US, and far cheaper. China's also in the WTO and has MFN status with the US.

 

Internally, China's markets are also freer than in the US. For example, in the US each state has its own tax laws and moving goods between states is almost like moving them between different countries (Think alcohol). In China, this isn't a problem.

 

China's state healthcare system is worse than Americas. So, medical care is extensively a business. Private hospitals, private healthcare.

 

It's the same with schools. Even state schools charge fees and work on capitalist principals. Private schools, more so.

 

There is no realistic state support for the elderly, so pensions and welfare is often mostly private, too.

 

There is almost nothing left of Mao's dream of a socialist state. Beijing calls itself Communist, but it's not been communist since Deng's reforms in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The state owns a lot of companies, and a lot of land, but the companies that it owns compete with the private sector, and with each other, and land is't really a capitalist issue.

 

China is proof that you democracy and freedom are not essential components for capitalism, or for a free market. Or for economic growth. China has managed to rise to be the world's second largest economy while remaining a single part dictatorship.

 

Personally till i read about the impact of dumping cheap steel internationally and the effect it is having on people i did not take much notice of China.

Now i am reading about subsidies,human rights,cyber attacks it is slightly worrying.

Are they our friends or not.

Another question.

[unclebulgaria67]

Friends but only on their terms.

 

Interesting info you posted about China being more capitalist than US. I guess it begs the question as what is capitalism ? There cannot be one standard model. UK has one of the most open markets in the world and this can be good in some respects. But it means that UK manufacturers can face unfair competition.

[Tawnyowl]

I suppose we have to admire the ordinary hard working entrepreneurs of China.The people that graft day after day.The ordinary people trying to make a Renminbi or two.

But when you hear about these kind of things as this article talks about,what do you think.

 

Kowtowing to China’s despots is morally wrong and makes no economic sense

Steve Hilton

President Xi Jinping will enjoy the pomp of a state visit this week, but our obsession with the country is misguided

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/18/kowtowing-to-china-does-nothing-for-british-economic-health

[unclebulgaria67]

He does not mention the harvesting of the organs of some prisoners which are then sold on for transplant operations. Has been reported by numerous sources over a number of years.

[obiter dictum]

The EU introduced added price controls on the imports of steel last year from China in response to "Dumping" on the markets

 

The question needs to be asked is why Osbourn signed a trade deal with China to import steel into the UK??

 

The reason why the British Steel industry is in crisis is that UK energy costs along with Business rates are the highest in europe.

 

Labour costs in China are a fraction of those in western economies

 

Take your IPHONE as an example

 

The ore is manufactured by Congolise child labour and exported to China. Your Iphone is then put together by Indentured workers and sold by apple to the western markets.

 

Osbourn has done a deal with China where they will build our next generation nuclear power stations.

 

EDF energy who will run these stations that come into line in 2030 will charge double the KW it costs to produce that electricIty. It will be the consumer saddled with this debt in 15 years time sealed under contract

 

Madness

[unclebulgaria67]

How many workers die in Chinese factories due to poor health and safety ? When we buy their cheap products, we don't question how they were made.

 

I can recall a protest in China where several people jumped off a building to their deaths because of working conditions.

[Guest]

maybe its a trade off for them buying uk milk/cheese re 'Ms Truss said there was "growing demand for quality British produce" in China....'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/agriculture/farming/11808592/British-milk-and-cheese-to-be-promoted-in-China-in-new-trade-mission.html

 

ps, crossed post

[unclebulgaria67]

maybe its a trade off for them buying uk milk/cheese re 'Ms Truss said there was "growing demand for quality British produce" in China....'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/agriculture/farming/11808592/British-milk-and-cheese-to-be-promoted-in-China-in-new-trade-mission.html

 

Did you know that China is responsible for increased costs of meat ? They did have a mostly vegetarian diet at one time or only eat certain meats. Now embracing capitalism, they buy loads of meat and it has increased market prices.

[Guest]

Did you know that China is responsible for increased costs of meat ? They did have a mostly vegetarian diet at one time or only eat certain meats. Now embracing capitalism, they buy loads of meat and it has increased market prices.

 

my post crossed there, it was light hearted re them being allowed to invest in the uk nuclear industry

[unclebulgaria67]

my post crossed there, it was light hearted re them being allowed to invest in the uk nuclear industry

 

Yes i see.

 

China don't have a reputation for build quality, given the number of bridges etc that have collapsed due to poor buildiing.

 

Osborne even dyes his hair to look Chinese !

[obiter dictum]

The cost of building a nuclear reactor in China is a fraction of that in the west as they cut back on safety protocols

 

Those being redunant back up systems

 

And how do you think China is being paid to build these reactors in the UK???

 

Private Finance Initiative (PFI) underwritten by the Tax payer

 

That is along with the other 61 PFI Partnerships Osbourn has signed off since 2010

[Conniff]

The UK doesn't hold up that well either:

 

1.2 million working people suffering from a work-related illness

2,538 mesothelioma deaths due to past asbestos exposures (2013)

142 workers killed at work (2014/15)

78,000 other injuries to employees reported under RIDDOR

629,000 injuries at work from the Labour Force Survey

28.2 million working days lost due to work-related illness and workplace injury

£14.2 billion estimated cost of injuries and ill health from current working conditions (2012/13)

[determindator]

Panorama now about the Chinese President.

[Tawnyowl]

Quote Conniff-

142 workers killed at work (2014/15)

 

Gave me a shock those figures.

But terrible as it is seems to be dropping.

Back in 2010/2011

In the United Kingdom, for example, there were 171 worker fatalities between April 2010 and March 2011.

 

When population size is taken into account, China's workplace death rate is more than 21 times higher than the UK's.

 

Last year, 79,552 people died in work-related accidents in China, an average of 218 people a day, official figures show.

Note the word official.

 

Source.But the article is 2011

China's workplace safety scrutinised in new report showing over 200 deaths a day

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/asia-pacific/chinas-workplace-safety-scrutinised-in-new-report-showing-over-200-deaths-a-day

 

Some say the figure is really the tip off the iceberg.Hidden the true figures.

Just what is really going on in China.

Seems so many things hidden from the public.

 

Looks like tomorrow is a big day in London.

The howls of China’s prisoners will haunt this royal welcome for Xi Jinping

Ma Jian

The Chinese president’s state visit coincides with the biggest crackdown on his country’s civil society in years. This fawning insults the people of both countries

 

The message from the Chinese to their subjects will be clear: if the queen of the UK, the oldest democracy in the world, lavishes your president with such respect and approbation, then what right have you to criticise him?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/18/china-royal-royal-xi-jinping-chinese-president

 

 

Last thing.Can you possibly believe this is going on in the world today.

 

Thousands of religious prisoners in China 'have organs ripped out while ALIVE to sell to transplant tourists'

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thousands-religious-prisoners-china-have-6567660

 

If any of these rumours are true in my mind the only reason can be that America and Great Britain are skint and will do anything for a good few billion pounds.

And the documentary-The Plague Of The Black Debt.The end is nigh.Some of it may have some truth to it after all.Link-

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?452225-The-Plague-Of-The-Black-Debt.The-end-is-nigh.

 

 

I will now withdraw and watch how this interesting thread develops.

After only a few days looking at things it is hard to take some of the things i am reading in.Hard to believe a nation can treat their citizens this way.

But am no expert by any means.And sometimes i perhaps get carried away.Hard to tell what the truth is.

Easily fooled.But why would this be made up.

[Conniff]

The cost of building a nuclear reactor in China is a fraction of that in the west as they cut back on safety protocols

 

I would like a link to this please.

[determindator]

Here's a report which does cover this point

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/25/china-nuclear-power-plants-expansion-he-zuoxiu

[bd1972]

I work in the steel industry. There are only around 30000 of us left in the uk. This week 1 in 6 is likely to get made redundant due the dumping of cheap chinese steel. That is 1800 at Camparo today 2200 at Redcar last week and another announcement from our company tomorrow of another 1200 jobs to go. We have seen the market get filled with cheap steel from china that is not upto the standards we make or supply in the western world. We see reports everyday of yet more steel failing because of substandard supply. It beggars belief that a conservative goverment can jump into bed with the chinese award high value contracts for hs2 and Hinckley point without knowing what kind of steel will be used and whether or not it will be upto the standard that any British manufacturer could supply. We should forget they are renowned dor producing cheap imitations and their is no different yet this is going to lay railway line and a nuclear power station and should the steel fail the consequences will be dire.

Sorry for the rant but i may be 1 of those people who loses my job for the sake of the goverment making friends...

[tobyjugg2]

Is China now a capitalist country ?

 

Nope, Its a dictatorship that uses capitalism against the capitalists - very effectively.

 

If you think the Wests banking crisis was bad, wait until the China bankrolling system unravels as the smoke and mirrors it also is.

[unclebulgaria67]

Nope, Its a dictatorship that uses capitalism against the capitalists - very effectively.

 

If you think the Wests banking crisis was bad, wait until the China bankrolling system unravels as the smoke and mirrors it also is.

 

Yes, China has huge hidden debts within their shadow Banks. They keep building and building, borrowing more money, often without a return on investment in sight. i just hope UK government have thought about contigencies, if Chinese investment suddenly disappears.

[Conniff]

Here's a report which does cover this point

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/25/china-nuclear-power-plants-expansion-he-zuoxiu

 

There is nothing mentioned about the safety of the reactors or generators themselves.

 

He would like to see China stop its expansion once the plants that have been approved or are now under construction are finished, and then gain a few decades experience

 

Is it worth reminding that Britain commissioned the worlds first commercial nuclear generating station in the 50s and we had no experience whatsoever. So I think that statement from He is bunk.

 

As for the steel, I'll ask again something that no one seem willing to answer - what do you want the government to do ??

[obiter dictum]

Business rates

 

Energy Prices

 

Why is it only the UK that has the highest energy and business rates out of the whole of Europe??

 

Why is Osbourn doing trade Deals with China to import ready made steel at the expense of our own domestic steel industry?

[unclebulgaria67]

Apply standards in regard to the steel imported for safety reasons. Have it tested and if it fails then the manufacturers looses licence to export to the UK.

 

As far as i understand it, the nuclear power station will be mostly French technology with EDF building it. No doubt it will be subject to many safety inspections at all stages.

[obiter dictum]

And nothing was mentioned as to the current and future safety of western reactors.

The west have their own Regulatory inspectors such as the ONR.

 

That report was with China and how ther own reactors have been built and commissioned

 

Nothing like trying to confuse matters as a deflection tactic??