How long is s21 notice valid for if landlord doesn't act on it?

[reallymadwoman]

Parents in private rented property were given s21 notice as landlord wanted to sell. Daughter has been trying to get a mortgage to buy the property and in the meantime the parents have stayed put with the landlord's permission. Notice expired over 2 months ago.

 

The sale is taking longer than the landlord would like and they are threatening to pull out. If they do, will they have to issue a new s21 notice?

 

Am I right in advising that the parents are under no obligation to allow access for viewings etc whilst they are still living there?

[legalistic]

RMW, I have wanted an answer to this question and have tried to find out.I can see nothing in statute, case law or procedure that says how long a s21 notice persists. My guess is that it would be impossible to define given the way in which such a notice may have been written.The nearest thing I found was in CPR 55.15 (4)(a)(b) which says that, if a claim has been filed under the accelerated procedure and there has been no defence filed then, after 3 months, the claim will be stayed.I think the rental and the buying position are two entirely different things. So long as a landlord is happy for someone to stay, even if s/he has served a s21 notice, then that's OK.There is also the question of a possession order and the execution of it. Even if a possession order has been made then, if the tenant remains, and no bailiff has been appointed then, again, nothing happens.

[mariner51]

AIUI a valid s21 served remains valid after Notice expiry date fof that AST particular AST and resultant SPT.

After full implementation of the De Regulation Act it is probable that a s21 will only have a life expectancy of 2 months after expiry of due Notice period.

If sale falls through and no new fixed term AST is signed, the LL does not have to re-serve s21.

Depending on wording in AST, the T can deny access for viewings (if they are not concerned about a LL ref), but rather than a blanket NO, most would suggest T notifies LL in writing, of 2-3 permissible time periods/week for viewings convenient to T, eg Mon 11-2pm, Thu 6-8pm and Sat 11- 2pm, but at .no other days/times or unaccompanied viewings. 1 regular LL member has suggested offering T £20 for each permitted viewing slot, if property is presented clean & tidy.

[reallymadwoman]

Does it make a difference that in between times the landlord has died and the property is now owned by his beneficiary - the original landlord signed the s21 notice.

 

The situation is really complicated - the tenants are both seriously disabled and the property has been adapted for them. Finding another suitable property is proving impossible, even if we subsidise their rent heavily, hence wanting to buy it so badly. We've even approached the council, but as they've lived in the area for less than 2 years then they're not eligible for help despite having moved there to be close to family for support. Any suggestions as to the way forward would be very welcome. We can certainly afford to buy the property between us, but it's neither a straightforward buy-to-let situation nor an ordinary residential mortgage.

[mariner51]

Interesting Q though belated extra info.

If the property title has been transferred to inheritor - I don't know about s21. it is akin to sale to new LL. If it is still part of deceased's estate with Executor in charge, I would surmise orig s21 is still valid. Title does not cease on death.

What is the delay in arranging sale? I assume new LL still wants to sell, so make him an offer to buy at below market value but above Probate valuation. eg sitting T valuation.

[reallymadwoman]

Delay is getting the mortgage - it can't be a buy to let as it's intended to be occupied by relatives and getting a residential mortgage that's not absolutely straightforward is a nightmare even where everyone has more than adequate income and spotless credit histories. The computer will never say yes so it's finding a lender who is willing to go beyond that and look at individual circumstances.

So far as I know probate has all gone through and deceased wife now owns property.

[legalistic]

RMW, I suggest you try a mortgage broker to help with mortgage problem. Some of them are really knowledgeable.

[mariner51]

Do you or parents qualify for Govr Help to Buy Scheme? May be buyer will be investor LL willing to let elderly Ts stay on.

[raydetinu]

Suggest if you have good credit to go and see Bank Manager or Mortgage specialist advisor.

I am sure they will sell if you get the mortgage and make an offer that makes it worthwhile for them! don't under value it too much!

[reallymadwoman]

Our mortgage broker, who is absolutely brilliant, has been totally unable to find anyone who will lend in these circumstances, so it's now down to whether or not the landlord relies on the original s21 notice or issues a new one as to how long we have to find somewhere else for the parents to live - we can't rely on the new buyer being willing to let to them. Mum is 80 this weekend, what a birthday surprise to be told she's going to have to move from somewhere she loves.

[legalistic]

With all due respect RMW I suspect that your mortgage broker is not absolutely brilliant as you say though he might be very nice. I was listening to a, mortgage expert, last night doing a phone-in on LBC Radio. He had all manner of tips and advice for people with complex problems. You say the computer will never say yes. The mortgage expert said that a good mortgage broker will go beyond the computer so to speak. Just because your mortgage broker has been friendly and helpful does not mean that another broker might not have better connections and better answers.

 

Additionally, the s21 matter and obtaining a mortgage are two entirely separate matters in law. You are probably not helping yourself by linking them together, although the circumstances are factually connected.I'm wondering why the LL is in an apparent hurry to sell. What is his position?

Edited April 21, 2015 by citizenB
Removing firm's name.

[tony3x]

The problem you are having with the majority of lenders is that they do not allow a vendor to stay in the property. Have you looked at lenders that do a second home scheme, this is based on affordability, you can have family living there but there must not be a tenancy agreement. Halifax used to do them, not sure about now.

[reallymadwoman]

Update - our mortgage broker did eventually find someone who would lend which made the s21 issue irrelevant, however we did get legal advice which I'll pass on in case it helps someone else.

 

In this particular situation accepting rent from the tenants after the notice expired probably wouldn't have made any difference as there would have been no intention to create a new contract - the tenants were only being allowed to stay whilst we sorted out the purchase of the property. However, it would have been down to a court to decide whether this was actually the case which would take longer and cost more than just issuing a new notice.

 

Where there are no external factors, it would appear that if a landlord continues to accept rent after the notice period expires there would be deemed to be a neew contract in place and therefore the landlord would need to give notice again if he wanted the tenants to leave.

 

Bottom line is that if you're the landlord, just issue a new notice. If you're the tenant, you could stand your ground but it's really only going to delay the inevitable and may end up costing you.