David Lloyds problem

[Dolly1603]

Hi everyone

 

I am also new to this site, but find myself in a similar position to Miha. Back in May of 2008 I signed up with a local gym called Next Generation. The guy who showed me round then gave me the form to fill in and said that there was an offer on whereby I could avoid the big sign up fee and join for only £15. Then he said the deal ended that day. There was no time to think about it and I felt pressured to sign, which I did…and I rue the day. Like Miha, none of the terms and conditions were brought to my attention and I never got a copy of the contract.

 

Over the next year, Next Generation were taken over by David Lloyd Leisure (they called it a merger). After my initial term (of a year) was up, the membership was automatically renewed and I thought nothing of it. I was otherwise distracted with my fight to get therapy services for my children, who have moderate learning difficulties. I was a member for 6 years up until I decided to end in November of last year. I hand delivered a letter to the gym indicating that I wanted to end my membership, giving 3 months notice according to the terms and conditions (as I'd gone through my file, found and read the booklet they sent in September of 2009). Shortly after, my husband rang me and said he'd found information about unfair practices by the fitness industry and that I shouldn't pay them any more money. He cancelled the direct debit that day and the next day I handed in another letter with my key and access card.

 

What followed was a succession of emails then letters back and forth while I tried to argue that I was pressure sold the contract and that I didn't even have the option to suspend my membership for the school holidays when I couldn't come. They said I could have and that lots of their members do…really? "The T's & C's in the booklet say you can ONLY if you have a serious illness ("which cannot be helped by exercise") and ONLY for a "single period of between three and six months within any 12-month period". This does us parents no good during school holidays.

 

Like Miha, I felt royally cheated. When I pointed out that I felt I was pressure sold the membership and that I was "not convinced" by their claim about suspension of membership, they never acknowledged it, they just kept saying they like to treat all their members fairly…(yeah, right) and as such the 3 months notice applied. In the meantime as well the phone calls and emails from Stephen Empson at Central Membership had started. He even said that they would be referring the matter to their debt collector "partners". I emailed back to Mr Empson and there was no reply, but neither was there anything from the debt collectors at the time. The phone calls were sometimes twice a day on mobile and landline. After one phone call (thankfully my son came home from school so I had to hang up "promising" to ring back later) I decided not to answer the phone, but it did leave me fearful every time the phone did ring. It's an awful feeling.

 

In December I requested a copy of a signed contract as I realised I didn't have one in the file, what they sent was a copy of the form I signed in 2008 with Next Generation. The print on the back was minuscule and it even said "3 months notice applies" in brackets under the Initial Term Expiry Date. So I realised that even if I had decided to end after the initial period, they had me anyway. No matter how many times I tried to take them to task over all the phone calls, fairness, suspension of membership, etc. They remained uncompromising.

 

At my wits' end I went to a friend with a legal background and she suggested making them an offer of £100 in full and final settlement. She said if they don't they will have to explain to a judge why they didn't and they might not want to do that. They flatly declined my offer saying "I understand you feel very strongly about this issue and I am very sorry that we cannot accede to your requests at this time. With this in mind, we must decline your offer of £100 in full and final settlement. Our position remains unchanged and, unfortunately, further correspondence from you will not alter our decision." I was furious and wrote back telling them how disgusted I was.

 

After that I heard nothing, but in the back of my mind I knew it wasn't over and indeed, it wasn't for a voice mail came through this week from ARC Europe Limited - sound familiar to anyone? Straight after my mobile rang and I foolishly answered it thinking it was someone else. It was some guy from ARC and after he'd confirmed my phone numbers and that I'd received letters concerning this outstanding debt with DLL, demanded I give him my card number over the phone right then and there! I stalled and said I wanted to check my account and I wanted to speak to someone else about it. When I became angry and upset, he told me to calm down in a "calm down, dear" sort of way. That afternoon I emailed them and said what ever they wanted to say they needed to put it in writing, which they have, stating that if I don't pay the outstanding amount "within the next fourteen days we may pass you account on to our Solicitors, with instructions to prepare court proceedings". Shaking, I started writing a letter back, trying to tell them the situation (the man on the phone wouldn't listen to me), but decided instead to Google "arc Europe complaints". Lo and behold it landed me here where there are so many similar stories…there is quite a pattern here.

 

I have also sought help from another friend who isn't practicing anymore due to a career change, but who is called to the bar and he's said it is just "bull--- and bluff". We'll see what happens.

 

Apologies if this is a bit long winded but I did try and tell the whole story as concisely as I could! By the way, DLL also sent me a link to a document - and "undertaking" signed by two reps from DLL in 2009 (after the investigation into leisure industry practices), but the link was to the National Archives. Does any one know of why such a document should be filed there and not somewhere else like the courts or something?

 

Anyway, thanks for reading and if anyone's got any other advice, it would be welcome!

[Dolly1603]

Hi, Miha and Slick132

 

I posted a story similar to this some weeks ago now but haven't had any replies.

 

Have you resolved your matter yet? Mine is still in dispute as I got a letter from the debt collectors saying they "may" pass the matter on to the solicitors.

 

A friend who used to be a solicitor says he doesn't think any of my reasons for not paying will stand up, sadly, but it now all depends on whether or not they will take the matter further.

 

I read a post on here that said these gym matters rarely get to court, so I hope whoever posted that was right!

 

After the phone call from ARC I emailed them saying they should communicate in writing and that the chap I spoke to was condescending, but they disagreed (of course) - having listened to the phone call again, so it appears they recorded it.

 

On advice from my friend, I wrote to ARC saying that I had already given reasons to DLL why I felt I shouldn't be made to pay and I have heard nothing back thus far. I also posted a letter off to the CEO of DLL in the hope that I could appeal to his common sense.

 

It's too early yet for a response, but who knows if he will even see the letter, let alone respond.

 

I'd be grateful to know if Miha has been successful in resolving her issue.

Edited April 3, 2015 by slick132
Spaced with paragraphs - easier to read

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

I've added para. spaces to make your post easier to read.

 

Please use spacing in posts

[citizenB]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?442733-Re-David-Lloyds-problem

 

link to Dolly's thread. Dolly, I think your own thread/post is rather waffly and doesn't quite say what you want help with

[Dolly1603]

Hi there

 

Sorry for the waffle! I just wanted to try and give a good picture of my situation. I guess basically my question is was I right to contest this issue of three months notice with them and to your knowledge has anyone actually gone to court over it?

 

On advice from my legal friend I sent a letter to ARC (debt collectors) saying I have already explained to DLL my reasons why I believe I have been unfairly treated and that I shouldn't be made to pay the notice period. They are demanding £244.85 plus £70 admin, which, in a gesture of "good will" they will take down to £20.

 

I believe I have been treated unfairly for the following reasons:

 

1. They offered me a deal when I signed up in May of 2008 - avoid the start fees and pay only £15…but, they said, it ended that day. I have no way of knowing if it was genuine or indeed whether or not it did end that day, I think they could have used it to pressure me into signing up quickly without letting me read it or even think about it.

 

2. I never got a copy of the contract. It was only sent to me last December when I started taking issue with the three month's notice. When I looked at it, it appears that even if I'd decided not to continue at the gym after the initial period was up, they still required three month's notice. I also don't know if the fact that the contract I signed was with Next Generation, before DLL merged with them has any bearing. I never signed a contract with DLL directly. Also in the minuscule print on the back it appears to be a rolling contract…but then I wasn't given the chance to read it and nothing what-so-ever was brought to my attention.

 

3. They say the notice period is fair and sent a link to a document on the National Archives website, but still no explanation as to why, even when I asked them directly in one of my letters.

 

3. I told them I'd wasted a lot of money when I couldn't come to the gym during school holidays. They said I could have suspended my membership (which they said a lot of their members do) but after what I have seen in some posts here and elsewhere online I seriously doubt they'd have let me. When I pointed this out to them they did not acknowledge it.

 

4. They hassled me with incessant phone calls to my mobile and landline to the point where I felt stressed every time the phone rang. I finally requested communication in writing only.

 

5. When I offered to end the whole issue with a £100 full and final settlement, they turned it down flat with no explanation.

 

Since my letter (mentioned above) to ARC I have heard nothing further. I'm not sure what will happen now and I dread the possibility that court documents will arrive in the post…but for £244.85, would it be worth the hassle for them?

 

I have also written to the CEO in the hope of appealing to his common sense, but who knows if he'll even see the letter and if he does, whether or not he'll bother to respond.

 

Thanks for listening and for any advice you might have.

[slick132]

Hi Dolly and sorry this was not answered last month. I've no idea why that happened

 

I'm going to take your post from Miha's thread and put it here so all the info is in the right place.

 

[slick132]

Hi Dolly. Posts now merged.

 

Our experience with gyms suggests that you may not have heard the end of this. However, the chances of this turning into a court case is very slim and, if court action happens, we'll do our best to help you defend.

 

I hope the silence persists but please keep us updated of any developments. We'll respond quickly from now on.

 

I suggest, in the meantime, that you seek input here before making any further contact with the gym or ARC.

 

A lot of what you've said about matters relating to years back is really no longer relevant. However, we still feel that DLL's need for 3 months notice to cancel is unfair and should be challenged.

 

[Dolly1603]

Thanks, Slick132

I hope the silence persists, too, but I'm not holding my breath! What really gets me is that they even required three months notice on expiry of the initial period, but more, that they won't even give an explanation as to why three months is fair. Can't believe the OFT let them get away with that one. Neither would they give an explanation as to why they turned down my settlement offer…wonder what they'd say if asked by a judge…but I really don't want to end up in court! I suppose, though, that they fight everyone who challenges them because if they don't it will open the flood gates…well too bad, I say. Will keep you posted!

[slick132]

Dolly,

 

Do you have the agreement that you signed on joining the Next Generation gym.

 

Did you ever sign a new agreement with DL.

 

Have you considered making a complaint to Trading Standards.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

I do have a copy of the contract signed with Next Generation. They only sent it to me last December when I started challenging the three month notice period. When the merger with DL happened I never signed a new contract directly with them.

 

As I might have mentioned, they did send me a link to a an "Undertaking to the Office of Fair Trading" signed by them in 2012 (obviously not admitting to any past wrong-doing!) that does state they will require three months notice. There's no Government or OFT logo/letterhead or anything on it. It is filed at webarchive.nationalarchives.co.uk. I know the OFT is now disbanded so I can't contact them. Citizen's Advice wasn't much help, neither was the consumer helpline. I just don't understand how they convinced the OFT that three months was fair.

 

It did actually cross my mind to contact Trading Standards, but I haven't yet done it. Think it might make a difference?

 

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

Contacting Trading Trading Standards will make no difference to your personal case but, if enough people do this, they may take action. Therefore every complaint counts.

 

The print on the back was minuscule and it even said "3 months notice applies" in brackets under the Initial Term Expiry Date.

 

Where it said "3 months applies", was this part of the printed T&C's or was it hand-written.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

I'll definitely contact Trading Standards, then. Hopefully others will have also.

 

The print saying "3 months notice applies" was unfortunately printed (not hand written) right under the initial period expiry date. This was never pointed out to me, though, neither were any of the T&Cs on the back of the form.

 

Also today received another letter from ARC saying that are "disappointed to note that you have not cleared your balance following our previous letter". I did send them, on advice from my legal friend, a brief letter saying that I had already explained to DLL why I believe that I should not be made to pay the 3 months notice. They go on to say that "on advice from our client, we can now transfer the matter to our Solicitors, Majorlaw Ltd., with interactions to prepare a County Court Claim against you for recovery of the debt." They say the court claim will be prepared 14 days after the date of this letter (14th April) , unless they receive payment.

 

Further, they say that if this is necessary, DLL will be entitled to claim interest under the County Courts Act 1984 together with fixed court fees and Solicitors' costs amounting to a further £85. They go on to inform me that should the debt remain unpaid, DLL can apply for a formal Court Judgement against me, affecting credit rating for 6 years.

 

I've sent the letter off to my legal friend in the hope of some advice, but would welcome your thoughts as well.

 

Thanks

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

I find it amazing that, after being a loyal member since 2008, DL are seeking to enforce their 3 month rule.

 

It does not matter that the original T&C's were not pointed out to you - it's your responsibility to read before signing.

 

I would have advised that you continue to ignore ARC's demands and wait for their pet solicitors to make contact.

 

But you should see what your legal friend suggests.

[Dolly1603]

I read somewhere amongst these posts that they are the only ones who have a 3 month notice period - but they insist it is fair but don't explain why. An employer would want this amount of time to find a replacement but does a gym need to find a replacement member?

 

I've had no reply from the CEO yet, so I don't know whether he just isn't interested or if some PA has fielded the letter…into the shredder!

 

I've just finished a letter to Trading Standards as well - like you said, not that anything will come of it, but hopefully others have done the same.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi there

The latest is that I received a letter from ARC last week saying they "can" now hand over the matter to their Solicitors, Majorlaw, Ltd - a name with which I am sure you are familiar. I have read other posts that mention them, but does a case ever end up in court? I haven't heard back from my legal friend yet, but wonder if I should look for a solicitor just in case?

 

Haven't heard from legal friend yet, but will follow up.

 

Also ARC assured me that they would comply with my request to put everything in writing, however over the last few days they have rung me three times, the most recent was on the landline this morning.

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

We're aware of Majorlaw, previously know as Major & Co Sol'rs I think.

 

Let us know when they contact you and we can advise appropriately.

 

Keep a log of all calls to your landline or mobile, in case a formal complaint is needed.

 

[Dolly1603]

Thanks - Will do.

I've still got all voice mails and phone calls on my mobile and landline and was already intending to log it all down. Not long after I sent that message there was another call on my mobile, so that's two in one day. I've re-written to the CEO and replied to ARC saying that they've gone back on their word and that again, I have already explained to DLL why I believe I have been treated unfairly and why I should not be made to pay.

 

I hope (against all hope, I don't know) also to hear something back from Trading Standards.

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

The exact content of each call is not important.

 

But do keep a note of the time and date of each call, who it's from and just brief detail of caller's comments, before you tell them to clear off.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

Yesterday I completed diary of events in this case and also noted the phone calls' dates & times. I've not picked up the phone so there has been no conversation. Their voicemails are automated.

 

I received another letter today. They said they had agreed not to ring if I sent "payment proposals" or "detailed dispute/defence", but they didn't hear from me after 24th March and did not ring me until 16th April. Perhaps I should offer them the settlement I offered DLL. Further they say they are acting with their client's instructions, and "within current rules and guidance"...Did I not read in a post on here that £70 admin fee was unlawful? They are charging me with that in addition to the amount DLL say I owe them.

 

This afternoon I sent a copy of the ARC letter to my legal friend for his thoughts. He's been questioning whether or not I really want to go through the hassle of fighting this if it goes to court. Truthfully I don't - and that's what they're banking on, I'm sure. He's not heard of these things actually ending up in the court room but then I'm not really a chance taker. But there's also a part of me that just wants this to be over so I don't have to think about it any more.

 

Honestly, this is getting ridiculous and stressful.

 

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

You've misunderstood ARC. They're saying they are instructed by DLL to chase the debt so they're just following instructions. The "rules and guidance" they refer to are simply what they agreed specifically with The OFT about gym memberships, and generally about the old OFT Debt Collection Guidelines.

 

Re the £70 admin fee, WE say it's an unlawful penalty but, of course, they don't want to accept this as it's a great source of income for them.

 

There has been a previous court case some years back and there's another running currently that we're helping to defend. So, understandably, your legal friend is probably less experienced with gym cases than we are. If YF is a practising sol'r, I doubt he would come across any gym cases as it wouldn't be worth paying a solicitor's fees defending a gym court case.

 

So, you need to decide :-

 

1. You say you aren't willing to go to court to defend, you're not a chance taker and you just want this to be over. So you could pay up and it'll be over.

 

2. Fight DLL and ARC on the basis that they have no agreement between you and THEM; that the 3 month requirement is unfair to you as a consumer; that the 3 month rule is ludicrous bearing in mind that you'd been a paying member since 2008.

 

If you decide to fight and stand your ground, we'll help you.

 

But you need to commit, one way or the other.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

Sorry I've not been in touch for a while. The latest is that - since they said I should pay or give "detailed dispute/defence", I sent a letter back to ARC (without revealing any details) telling them to ask DLL about the manner in which I was signed up, suspension of membership and the settlement offer. This was 29th April and I've heard nothing back since, although I'm not holding my breath as I've been here before.

 

Trading Standards did get back to me with an unsigned letter referring me to Citizens Advice but saying that the information such as that which I have provided will be collected and collated and used to support their "intelligence led approach to actions and enforcement". They use the assessment to decide how best to use their resources. So, as predicted, no real help here but at least they can add my complaint to what I hope are many more. I might even write back and refer them to this website, if that's okay.

 

Referring to your point 2, I would like to try and fight on this basis, but I'm not sure what the law is on the contract with Next Generation and whether or not it is valid even after David Lloyd merged with them.

 

Will let you know if I hear anything back.

[slick132]

Hi Dolly and thanks for the update.

 

It may be better if you seek input here before next replying to ARC.

 

Have you had any further contact from DLL. When did you last write to the CEO.

 

Can you tell us roughly what you said in your last reply to ARC.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi there

 

I last wrote to the CEO on 18th April and there's been no further contact from either Central Membership at DLL or the staff at my local branch.

 

What I said to ARC was basically what I already mentioned. I told them to ask DLL about the manner in which I was signed up, suspension of membership and the settlement offer. But I did say that DLL never responded to any of these things when I challenged them. That's it, really I offered no details at all.

 

Hopefully I won't need to reply to ARC at all, but as I said I'm not holding my breath!

 

[slick132]

Hi Dolly,

 

I stand by what I said earlier - you really should ask here on CAG before writing to the gym and/or ARC.

 

There's no point in complaining now about being pressured when you signed up back in 2008.

 

Nor is there any point in mentioning that you should have been allowed to suspend m/ship during school holidays.

 

You need to keep your communications brief and to-the-point !

 

Let us know when you hear back from ARC.

 

[Dolly1603]

Hi Slick

 

As I said in my PM, I heard from a Regional Manager of DLL today via email. She thanked my for my recent correspondence concerning my experience at the High Wycombe Club and apologises that I have had cause to write to her - which I didn't, I wrote to the CEO, who evidently has passed the buck.

 

She reassures me that DLL has gone to a lot of effort to ensure their terms are legally acceptable and fair to the consumer. But "considering the situation" and as a "gesture of good will" she is "happy to waive the £70 ARC fee if the outstanding balance is paid within 10 days of this letter". Therefore I should contact the Central Membership and pay the outstanding fees to settle the account.

 

In closing she appreciates that this might not be the response I was hoping for, she trusts that this confirms her position. So no explanation from the CEO himself, but from someone lower down, and still no explanation or answer to any of the issues I brought up in my letters.

 

My legal friend says perhaps the best thing I can do is to end this. Although they probably won't take this to court - the whole case could get sold so another debit collector who will then start the harassment all over again.

 

My husband thinks they are slowly backing up, since ARC's efforts didn't pay off. ARC said in one letter that they "could" pass the case on to their solicitors to prepare a court action, but nothing has yet materialised. If it does go to court, my other legal friend said that they would have to explain to a judge why they didn't accept my settlement offer.

 

I would like to write back and request she address all my issues directly, but I doubt I"ll get anything - it seems their policy is neither confirm nor deny anything.

 

Anyway, I'd welcome more thoughts/advice - yet again!

 

And again, thanks for all your help