Been referred to the "2yr Work program" what is it?

[Jazzie-Rose]

Hi all new to the site so I'm sorry if I'm not doing this right.

 

Right so I've now been on JSA for 12months and on Friday I went to sign on as normal but was sent to the back of the office where you see the proper advisers without warning and not the normal signing on people.

She didn't ask me about my job searches for the last 4 weeks (was excused from the last sign on day as it was good Friday) but she shoved a bit of paper at me saying I had been referred to the work program which had the name of the company on saying they'd be in touch. She never said when.

I asked her what it was and what it involved, she was trying to rush me off (probably because it was Friday afternoon and she wanted out of there).

She told me she didn't really know what they do exactly and how often I'd have to go or what was involved just that it lasts for 2yrs even if you get a job and that they could want me to go daily to job search (I do this at home just fine why I do need to go in an office to do it?) and they might put me on work placements but she had no idea over all.

I never knew this even existed until Friday.

 

Can anyone tell me how long they take to get in touch with you to give you the first appointment to go see them and how long this initial appointment/consultation takes as I might need to arrange childcare if it's more than say 20minutes.

Also what the hell happens on this work program?

How many days a week do you have to go and how long for? 10, 20 30min? Or hours?

Are you allowed to rearrange appointments with them?

If you can't turn up one day because say you have to be 100miles away to view a property will they allow you to do this if you give notice?

How quickly do they try to get you on a work placement and do they give you enough time to arrange childcare etc... and do they help with childcare costs?

Do they take into account any work limitations you may have such as bad wrist, bad leg etc... like the Job centre do?

Do you know if they will help me with my business plan to go self employed as I was actually supposed to be getting referred onto that next month (after I've moved house well over 100 miles to be closer to a support network of family and friends but they threw me on this instead without warning).

Are the meetings one on one or in group settings (I have social anxiety so this is worrying me)

Has anyone had any issues whilst on this program?

What are peoples reviews of their time on the program? Positive or negative?

Is there anything else you think I need to know?

 

Thanks xx

Edited May 4, 2014 by Jazzie-Rose
wanted to simplify

[neword]

Hello,

 

Sorry but the WP is a pain in the rear.

I cannot give you to much in the way of info with respect to the WP but what I can say is that it is a slightly more intensive version of normal signing.

Theres also the chance they will send you for courses (as they call them) and there's also the chance of Work Placement.

I do not know if the recent changes which have just come online affect WP in anyway maybe someone with better knowledge could help you more than me.

 

What I can say is that if you HAVE been put onto the WP then you can no longer go onto a scheme they had/have running whereby you could get a proportion of you JSA paid each week while you were actively starting up you own business, I think it was called the New Enterprise Allowance

If you had been discussing the prospect of going self employed with them before they placed you onto WP then there is a small chance you could get them to allow you to go on to the Enterprise Allowance but you must do it asap to stand any chance of them letting you do it.

I was in the process of going into self employment and was in active talks with my advisor. On the day I went to dot the i's and cross the t's my advisor was ill and they just gave me another appointment time.

When I went in I was sent directly to the WP desks and was told I was on WP. When I said I was actively trying to go onto the Enterprise allowance they said well thats not possible now because I was on WP. Found out 4 months later I could have appealed but by then it was to late.

 

I know the EA is not a lot but in the first six months of trading the extra money you would have got from them can make a difference between sinking and swimming in the early stages. You would also get access to a £1000 loan as well. Believe that this loan has now been upped to around the £2,500 mark.

 

If you end up staying on WP the time would be 2 years. Also when it comes to an end make sure they tell you you are off it. Once you are off it you have access the the EA again. They failed to tell me for 6 months and I ended up missing out as the main sales period for my products was past and I am now waiting so that I can get it in a couple of months time so it is still running through the main sales period.

 

Good luck

[jasta11]

Hello and welcome to CAG, you can get some good advice from people who've been through it before - I also have done my 2-years 'sentence' and found it a total waste of time and yet another government scheme dreamt up to make it look as though they're trying to help the unemployed.

 

You don't mention which Work Provider you're with but they seem to be pretty much all the same - sadly. Basically, they're supposed to help you get back into work by providing support, training, etc where needed but the main point to remember is that they can claim payment for everything they get you to do - whether it's beneficial to you or not. I was sent on a totally pointless course well below my existing skill level purely so they could claim the appropriate payment for having 'helped' me.

 

If you get a job while there - they get paid (called a 'Job Outcome Payment'. If you keep the job - they get more payments (called a 'Sustainment Payment'). Even if you find a job all by yourself with no help from them, they'll try and claim they found it for you so they can get paid. It's all about them making money by any means they can. A4e in particular have been the subject of a lot of fraud investigations. I was with Ingeus who are no better.

 

The 2 years will consist of job searching, constantly 'improving' your CV by so-called 'skilled' advisers, taking part in workshops such as 'confidence building', 'interview techniques' and other useless rubbish which few actually need. They get paid for all this though and it makes them look good to the DWP.

 

There's a thread on here titled 'Ingeus', which I recommend you read, even though it's a long one. It will give you some idea of what to expect - and what to watch out for. You can download copies of the Work Provider Guidance which they should all be abiding by (but usually don't) and this will let you stay one step ahead. If they think you don't know the rules or won't speak up then they're liable to try even more tricks on you. If they know you're someone who won't be messed about and not afraid to report them they'll tend to leave you alone more and pick on the easier targets. It's a disgraceful way of doing business but that's what these Work Providers are like - many on here will confirm that.

 

You can download the Work Provider Guidance here, from the DWP site. It really is worth reading and might save you being messed about;

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/work-programme-dwp-provider-guidance

 

Sorry I can't say more positive things about the Work Programme, I hope you get decent advisors and they genuinely do help you, but don't expect too much.

[Jazzie-Rose]

Thanks for your reply.

Sounds like the same situation as me then...

Do you have any idea how you go about appealing it? I signed on at 3:45 Friday and she just wanted rid of me wouldn't answer my questions properly and I kept saying about that enterprise allowance (but forgot the name and said the self employment course and she knew what I meant because mentioned the guys name who runs it in that office) I had even taken some of my samples with me on Friday but she wasn't interested or willing to let me continue talking about this let alone get the samples out of my bag. I would have signed there and then on to the enterprise if she'd let me.

Really annoyed how they can be like yes do this then suddenly change everything without warning!

I also took my kids out of school after some bad bullying issues and I am not willing to force them back into a school setting as supposed to be moving next month and it just wouldn't be fair on them to throw them back into a school then rip them out again to move house to a new city. So if they try to put me on some courses I'm going to be screwed!

I have read that they help you to look for jobs but I know how to search for jobs and apply for them, I know how to complete application forms and write a CV this seems like a waste of time to me and a way to make clients feel like an absolute idiot in the process! I mean yes there will be people do need help with that stuff but people who don't shouldn't have to be forced to be babysat through it all. The day I claimed JSA they shoved me on a 2day CV course which we all completed in about half a day but had to stay there for the rest of the day and then come back the next day to not get sanctioned even though we'd completed the forms and our CVs, so after our job searches we just there drinking brews all day clock watching!

I can't believe if I'm made to stay on this program I will have to wait 2yrs before I can get the support promised to me to help me build my business! What a joke! They shouldn't be allowed to make promises and break them, if we did that we'd be sanctioned!

I will go down to the job centre first thing Tuesday to appeal, should I do it by phone or is there a form I should ask for?

The self employment guy who runs the EA is only in on Fridays or I could have grabbed him for 5minutes and tried to get him to sort me out. I remember him telling me that if an advisor tries to put me on a 4 week mandatory work placement then I need to contact him straight away to sort the paperwork out to get me on EA because after the work placement you're not able to do EA either, he never mentioned the WP though, I'd not heard of it before Friday. :/

Wish I had his number still...

[Jazzie-Rose]

Thank you for your reply,

It says on the letter that she just threw at me "Ingeus, or one of their partners will support you whilst on the programme" so I will have a read through the thread you mentioned...

I want to set up my own business so it seems pointless to me to be going on a programme about looking for work and interview techniques it just doesn't fit in with my plan at all...

I know I'm very capable of looking for work but because I'm a single mum with no support the hours/shifts I could do were limited to Mon-Fri and the kind of 9am-5pm shifts that realistically don't tend to exist any more, They say oh you've been job hunting for 12months now and no luck. No I have been job hunting for 3 years with no luck! Just the first 2 years I was on Income support so didn't "have" to job search. So because there wasn't any jobs for me I tried making my own job and put my skills to use (jewellery making and arts and crafts plus selling imported childrens clothing) and had very promising feedback from the job centre and the self employment guy who does the EA but he needed more samples completing before I got signed on to it so that's what I had been working on (just taken a while due to finances ordering in materials I needed and then my jewellery pieces use real flowers which take weeks of prep to complete).

If I thought I was ready to just start selling now I'd march down the job centre Tuesday and just sign off and inform working tax but realistically I'm not with such a big and expensive house move coming up... Think I need to try and appeal. xx

[antone]

You can't actually appeal a decision to place you with a Work Programme Provider, as such. If you are in one of the claimant groups that is mandated to attend then there's no way to avoid referral.

 

However, have a read around the thread mentioned and other threads on here, as there is a lot of helpful advice from fellow conscripts, er, I mean, jobseekers. In particular, check out the rules regarding mandation and how they are expected to communicate with you, and also remember that anything they require you to do must be "reasonable given your circumstances", and those circumstances include your responsibilities to your children.

[Jazzie-Rose]

So even though they have been telling me to keep working on products to get my samples to get on EA and failing to stick their promise by randomly out of the blue referring me onto the WP on Friday I can't get out of it?

I was really looking forward to going self employed and getting support from EA. I guess I'l just have to go it alone and do the WP until I'm ready to sign off...

If people on JSA didn't keep their promises they'd be sanctioned but when the Job centre staff do it it's acceptable :/ so unfair.

But good to know that they have to work around my circumstances with the children so at least I can stop stressing about that side of things.

Thank you for your response xx

[Nystagmite]

Do they take into account any work limitations you may have such as bad wrist, bad leg etc... like the Job centre do?

 

They're meant to; but from experience they don't. I was made out to be a liar and the unreasonable one. She even got her line manager to email me, tell me to grow up and that I have to do what they say, regardless of my disabilities.

[neword]

Hello there,

 

When I said appeal I didn't actually mean appealing about being on the WP but more in line with appealing to get on the EA as you were already discussing the prospects of it with them. If you persist with it they may just bend a little and let you on it.

And if you find that your inquiries seem to be falling on deaf ears you can always try to speak to someone a little higher up the ladder than the people on the front desk. You need to get someone with a little understanding who is prepared to listen to you.

 

If you haven't already done it take a look at Working tax credits as I am almost certain that if you do it full time you would be entitled to it.

 

As I do not know your age I would suggest taking a look at The Prince's Trust which helps young people but I think it only for those under 30.

They help people and they also supply grants so worth a look if you qualify.

 

You could always start your business up while you are on the WP but you must tell them and declare what you earn. I would seek further advice from them before doing this but it could be a possible way of starting and still ensuring you have money coming in. This could allow you to develop at a slow pace. However there is a down side to this and that they will deduct any "profits" from your JSA/WP payments. They do allow you to keep a small amount of the profits (£5, £10,£20 dependent on your circumstances, status). You will need to make sure that you keep good records and that "ALL" your production costs are spot on, and I do mean "ALL" don't forget to add things like heat,light, stock etc. Oh and you must also make sure that you show them that you are looking for work and meeting your agreement with them to do so.

 

There is always PRIME which is The Prince's Initiative for Mature Enterprise. Primarily its for people over 50 but even if youre younger than that theres is a wealth of information on that site which you may find useful.

 

Theres also the LinkedIn website which is for people in business and you can post about your business and ask for help on that one (even if you are only in the thinking about it process)

 

Hope that you are able to get sorted.

 

Good Luck and if I can remember anything else useful I will post it for you.

Edited May 4, 2014 by neword

[sillygirl1]

You would be much better off signing off completely and going self-employed straight away, and claim working tax credit for being self-employed, especially as you are moving home.

 

The work providers are not very good at helping you go self employed, especially if you are older than 35 as there is no money in it for them.

[kcspurs]

i went on seetec about 3 years ago and its horrible. you have to go there every day from 9 30 untill 4 30 and if you dont get there early then you dont get to use a computer. you have to sit around reading the local papers.

 

i went on ingeous more recently and that was okay because you only get to see them once every 2 weeks and sometimes they would forget about you.

plus its normally for about 30mins

[Jazzie-Rose]

You would be much better off signing off completely and going self-employed straight away, and claim working tax credit for being self-employed, especially as you are moving home.

 

The work providers are not very good at helping you go self employed, especially if you are older than 35 as there is no money in it for them.

 

I have been thinking about this since Friday and still debating it, the problem with this is that technically you're not supposed to sign off until you're starting to earn (but that's easy enough to wriggle out of by saying you're working on some custom peices and being paid at the end of completion which means you're doing paid work and as long as it's over 16hrs a week I can also put a claim in for working tax etc...)

The problem is I'm still saving for my deposit and moving van to move and on a very strict budget, once you sign off JSA I have been told it just stops the day you sign off and there is no 4 week run on like there is with Income support apparently.

Though because I've been on JSA for a year I can still get the 4 week run on of housing benefit so that's good, but I was told working tax don't pay for the first 4 weeks of the claim is this true? If it is then I will be losing £53 a week (I get deductions for loans off the JSA so it's lower) £53 might not sound like a lot but it will be make or break in moving plans as I need to be putting away £100 a week to cover the costs. (we're on an extremely tight budget as it is to get that £100)

So I don't think I can afford to sign off just yet, and although I have people wanting products off me already I don't have the funds to buy in bulk amounts of stock, I only have little amounts for the samples I was working on so not ready to be going ahead with actual making/selling yet and having even started the importing side yet because I'm importing from China and it can take a month to come and could be moved by then so starting all that once moved...

I know there used to be that in work credit thing for loan parents but was told they stopped it last year. If working tax will be paid from the claim date then I'd go for it seen as it's only a month or just over till I move, but the job centre told me they don't pay for the first 4 weeks of the claim.

I'm posting off a budgeting loan form first thing tomorrow 1st class and hoping I have paid off enough to get about £200 back out on loan and I get my JSA this week (well provided she actually sent the payment because usually they say they have sent it and turn the screen around and she didn't and I forgot to ask as was rushed off rudely) I can't remember how long the loan takes I think it's only a couple of weeks (my last one at xmas was 2 weeks I think?) So may do 1 more sign on and the week I get the payment for that sign off...

But in all honesty I do currently spend at least 3 hours a day on my business plan, researching wholesalers and communicating with them to try and get discounts, designing more products, working on more samples and working on trying to improve my painting and drawing techniques I'm just not earning anything as of yet, so don't think it would much of a stretch of the truth to sign off... It's just unpaid work, for myself. lol

 

Oh and I'm 28 xx

[Jazzie-Rose]

i went on seetec about 3 years ago and its horrible. you have to go there every day from 9 30 untill 4 30 and if you dont get there early then you dont get to use a computer. you have to sit around reading the local papers.

 

i went on ingeous more recently and that was okay because you only get to see them once every 2 weeks and sometimes they would forget about you.

plus its normally for about 30mins

 

Hopefully they'l just want to see me fortnightly and forget about me too then haha, I could live with that

Going daily for 7hrs a day just for job searches is pointless, many websites have exactly the same vacancies listed, so the majority of the time you're just sifting through the same jobs looking for one you've not yet seen on previous sites. You can do that home (if you have a comp and internet if not you can even do it in the library) so you go and if there's no computer you sit and read newspapers for duration of your time...? What a waste of time! Doesn't take long to read through the job section of newspapers and phone any up that sound suitable. :/ xx

[Charlotte_Henderson]

The WP is a totally waste of time and money, usually run by muppets who haven't got a clue.

 

If you are lucky you will attend once every 3 weeks like i do, where i get interrogated for 5 mins then i leave.

 

Or you could be one of the unlucky ones, who have to attend 3-4 times a week for stupid job searches, spec letters, or put a stupid course. where even the advisor doesn't know what they are doing!

[sillygirl1]

Go onto Turn2us.com and see what you can get - don't listen when they say you can't have working tax credit for the first four weeks, that is to keep you on JSA long enough so they get a bonus for passing you to a WP.

 

It takes a couple of weeks for the benefit to come through and it can be backdated - I would phone up the Working Tax credit people first and check with them, and don't forget to register your company with the HMRC, doesn't cost anything and will protect you should anything else happen.

 

Once you are awarded WTC you can inform the local council of the amount and they will reassess your eligibility for HB/CT.

 

Yes, there is no four week run on of JSA but there is a run on of HB/CT.

[Mr.P]

Jazzie-Rose: Do you have a date for your move ?

It may well be worth your while checking to see which providers operate in the area you are moving to. If Ingeus do not have an office within easy reach of your new address, then it is pretty pointless going through the attachment process. Get in contact with your JCP office and ask (insist) that the referral is postponed until you have moved - This may not be easy, but JCP advisers do have the option to delay a referral under certain circumstances.

 

Once you have been "attached" to the Work Programme, access to Enterprise Allowance and other DWP help/support for self employment is denied. The WP providers are supposed to provide this support and give help in securing funding, but they do not have the expertise or ability to do so.

 

The initial "induction" appointment should take place within fifteen days of referral, so you would need to move pretty quick to delay the process.

[Jazzie-Rose]

Hi thanks for all of your replies to my queries. I have just had a phone call off Ingeus to make my first appointment which is set for this Friday! (That happened quick lol)

I explained my circumstances about homeschooling the children and moving next month and trying to go self employed and explained I have no support here so no one to have the children for me and the only way to not have to bring them with me for appointments would be to pay for childcare which I can't afford. She told me to just bring the kids along (they obviously don't want to pay for childcare lol).

She said because of my circumstances with the children that they will probably only want me to come in every fortnight, so I'm feeling a lot happier now! Yay!

Also they do not have offices in Manchester (where I am moving back to) so she said once I move I will stay with them but we will have the "meetings" via phone every 3-4weeks.

She said I sounded totally unsuitable for the work programme and has no idea why I've been referred to it and agrees I should have been put onto the Enterprise Allowance instead.

She was actually really nice and understanding and said my advisor will be able to me if they can help with starting my own business or not because they have had a few of their clients go self employed (though I'm not holding my breath here haha just because one of their clients went self employed doesn't mean they didn't do it alone does it).

At least I can relax now and stop getting anxious about being forced to put the kids back into a new school for 4-6weeks which was my biggest worry as would have been totally unfair on them with moving in June!

I'l let you know what they say on Friday! xx

[Jazzie-Rose]

Go onto Turn2us.com and see what you can get - don't listen when they say you can't have working tax credit for the first four weeks, that is to keep you on JSA long enough so they get a bonus for passing you to a WP.

 

It takes a couple of weeks for the benefit to come through and it can be backdated - I would phone up the Working Tax credit people first and check with them, and don't forget to register your company with the HMRC, doesn't cost anything and will protect you should anything else happen.

 

Once you are awarded WTC you can inform the local council of the amount and they will reassess your eligibility for HB/CT.

 

Yes, there is no four week run on of JSA but there is a run on of HB/CT.

 

Thank you I had a look and says I should be entitled to around £75 a week working tax credit and still most if not all of the council tax and housing benefit I get now while on a low income (I did a few varying calculations £0 £50 £100 £150 £200 profit to see how it varied as obviously in the beginning for a while the profit will be £0 after start up costs) So I'm happy with that knowing once we move we will able to afford to live whilst setting up and hopefully as the time goes on I will be relying less and less on benefits (fingers crossed anyway if all goes well lol) xx

[Mr.P]

I explained my circumstances about homeschooling the children and moving next month and trying to go self employed and explained I have no support here so no one to have the children for me and the only way to not have to bring them with me for appointments would be to pay for childcare which I can't afford. She told me to just bring the kids along (they obviously don't want to pay for childcare lol).

 

Well, they should be reimbursing you for child care costs and travel expenses - Make sure that you get the bus tickets refunded in full for yourself and the children.

 

Also read everything that they give you to sign carefully - You are under no obligation to sign any document or agree to a Data Protect Act waiver. It is also worth recording all meetings with them just to compare with any written records they may produce.

[Jazzie-Rose]

Well, they should be reimbursing you for child care costs and travel expenses - Make sure that you get the bus tickets refunded in full for yourself and the children.

 

Also read everything that they give you to sign carefully - You are under no obligation to sign any document or agree to a Data Protect Act waiver. It is also worth recording all meetings with them just to compare with any written records they may produce.

 

Oh yes, she did say they will refund my metro ticket but she wasn't sure if they could refund the kids ticket but told me to ask anyway.

She mentioned a 10am-2pm possible time frame for some meetings then said "but we'l make sure it fits around school times" I said "I just told you I homeschool they don't go to school" a bit dizzy! lol. But then she said well no more than 40minutes then so just bring the kids.

Will have to see if what she and my advisor says match come Friday as if they're anything like the job centre staff they all sing from different song sheets and contradict each other! Staying hopeful though... Fingers crossed the story stays the same!

I told her straight on the phone that they will NOT be sending me on any CV courses as already to do one and doing another would be pointless. She agreed.

There's a dater protection waver? I will NOT be agreeing that.

Good idea about recording the meeting, do I have to ask their permission first? Or do it sneakily? xx

[jasta11]

Good idea about recording the meeting, do I have to ask their permission first? Or do it sneakily? xx

 

Section 36 of the Data Protection Act - which nobody at the JC or WP ever seems to have heard of (or pretends they haven't) - gives an individual the right to make covert recordings for the purposes of gathering information for their own domestic use. Just do it, no need at all to tell them. The recordings can be transcribed into written words if you need to present evidence. Switch your mobile to 'record' and keep it in your top pocket. (I'm a bit less subtle; I stick it down on the desk in plain view between us at the JC when I sign on).

 

They'll try and say it's not allowed and that you must first tell them of your intention to record so a private room can be set up for 'data protection purposes' - which is a load of cobblers seeing as how their offices are open-plan and you can hear everyone else's business anyway!

 

Anyway, the whole point of recording them is to catch them doing something wrong; if they know they're being recorded they'll obviously be on their guard.

 

Your advisor sounds remarkably decent - but be aware that they usually are at the start until they gauge just how much they can get away with. I hope you really do get a decent advisor as it makes it at least bearable. Read up on the guidance; that's your best defence against them if needed.

[Charlotte_Henderson]

She said because of my circumstances with the children that they will probably only want me to come in every fortnight

 

NEVER EVER believe anything an ingeus advisor says

[Jazzie-Rose]

Section 36 of the Data Protection Act - which nobody at the JC or WP ever seems to have heard of (or pretends they haven't) - gives an individual the right to make covert recordings for the purposes of gathering information for their own domestic use. Just do it, no need at all to tell them. The recordings can be transcribed into written words if you need to present evidence. Switch your mobile to 'record' and keep it in your top pocket. (I'm a bit less subtle; I stick it down on the desk in plain view between us at the JC when I sign on).

 

They'll try and say it's not allowed and that you must first tell them of your intention to record so a private room can be set up for 'data protection purposes' - which is a load of cobblers seeing as how their offices are open-plan and you can hear everyone else's business anyway!

 

Anyway, the whole point of recording them is to catch them doing something wrong; if they know they're being recorded they'll obviously be on their guard.

 

Your advisor sounds remarkably decent - but be aware that they usually are at the start until they gauge just how much they can get away with. I hope you really do get a decent advisor as it makes it at least bearable. Read up on the guidance; that's your best defence against them if needed.

 

Thank you. I'l have a mess about with my phone and test it out before Friday, I've not recorded anything on it before. The lady on the phone wasn't my adviser she just phoned me to make the appointment and I'm now wondering if she's just a glorified receptionist with no right to make promises? hmm... xx

[essexmat]

Been referred to the "2yr Work program" what is it?

 

It is a place you go to where you get harrassed, get no help whatsoever, constantly under the radar for sanctions and if you are lucky enough to get any help at all i.e. CV writing the document will be riddled with spelling mistakes and be useless. I got more help in one hour from a friend of mine than in 1 year 3 months under JCP and INGEUS

[Jazzie-Rose]

NEVER EVER believe anything an ingeus advisor says

 

not as positive about Friday now... :/ I might lie and say I already have an address and moving date for 4 weeks time then hopefully they might find me of no value to them... I can live in hope... xx