What are a passengers rights?

[foxtrot47]

First time posting.

 

Hi Good Morning all.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

I’m a regular London transport user and greatly appreciate the wonderful public transport

we have here in London.

 

My question relates to what a persons rights are in the event of a mistake.

 

Yesterday I was on one of our new Route Master buses and some ticket inspectors got on.

They did their rounds and when they came to a woman sitting on the other side of the isle

adjacent to me she presented her Oyster card.

 

The female inspector scanned the card and then informed the woman:

“You don’t have enough money on this card. There’s only 60p on here. I

’m going to have to take your name and address”.

 

As I sat there listening to this I was a little surprised as at no point in time did either ticket inspector

offer the woman the chance to pay the difference or additional .085p owed fare.

 

The other thing that crossed my mind was the first thing the woman stated to them was

“But I scanned in?” I

 

t reminded me of an occasion when I was using a Cash Oyster on the tube

many a couple of years ago and it let me enter the tube and the electronic gates opened

but it wasn’t until I got to my destination that they wouldn't open.

 

I spoke to a ticket inspector who told me to go to the "fares window"

and was told I didn’t have enough money on the card.

 

I topped up and was on my way without problem and didn’t think twice of it again until yesterday.

 

Most people have some common sense and if you listen and observe a situation carefully

you can notice quiet a lot that you may not notice if aggravated or flustered or upset.

 

I could tell that the woman was really shocked by the situation.

She felt so embarrassed and yet she sat there quietly, s

he didn’t protest and wasn’t rude in anyway to the inspectors and volunteered information

to all the questions they asked.

 

She provided some photo ID but I guess it wasn’t a valid form of ID

as they then rang someone to try and confirm who she was.

 

She was the complete opposite to the typical foulmouthed, cocky aggressive person

who's looking for a way out of the situation which you can tell they only have them selves to blame

for as someone trying to fare dodge.

 

As I listened the inspectors then started asking her who else lived at the address

she gave and was this her real address.

 

What system are they using to check and what if you’ve just moved or are a tourist or foreigner?

 

All of this was happening on the top deck of a full bus which only had two seats on the top deck that were empty.

 

The ticket inspectors then sat in those two seats and as passengers got on to the bus and came upstairs

they then had to go back down stairs as there where no seats for them to sit in!

 

Now fare paying passengers couldn’ sit in the available seats and other passengers

who had paid there fares where starting to get upset at the way the inspectors were acting.

 

So it got me thinking that in todays world with TFL so desperate and adamant to catch fare dodgers

and crooks of any kind, they seem to make little or no allowance for a genuine mistake

or flaws in their own system. What are travelling passengers rights if a genuine mistake is made?

 

 

1. Why does the Oyster system allow you board a bus or enter the Underground

and make a journey with insufficient funds in the first place?

 

Taking into account late night travel when gates are open anyway or emergencies,

surely denying you access in the middle of the day in first place informs you you haven’t

got enough money and also stops you getting into a situation where it

appears you’re as guilty as a fraudster by making a simple mistake.

 

After all, everyday humans make mistakes... no one is perfect.

 

Even the Police and the Courts get it wrong sometimes.

 

2. Do you have the right to pay the difference or what is owed?

Please correct me if I’m wrong but I thought even a shop lifter had to be offered

the opportunity to pay for the goods they were taking or face arrest?

 

3. Do you have the right to leave the bus immediately and deal with the inspectors outside?

 

4. Should you and is it right to provide details of other people who live at your address?

I appreciate that in certain circumstances this may aid in proving who you are

but this now involves others who may or may not want to be known at that address.

. for criminal or genuine reasons alike.

 

5. Are there any Lawyers on here who act on behalf of Tfl or the Defendants,

whom could add their comments and opinions relating to how you should act if a genuine mistake is made.

If you were a lawyer and made a genuine mistake, how would you have dealt with this situation?

 

I really felt for this woman, whom in my honest opinion had just jumped on a bus,

swiped her Oyster and sat down not knowing she had made a mistake.

 

I appreciate that as inspectors they deal day in and day out with criminals and fraudsters

trying anything and everything to evade the fare, the law and the fine

but I felt this woman was criminalised in public without any attempt

to offer her to correct her error and pay the difference.

 

It really isn’t any of my business or problem... until it happens to me.

 

Your Thoughts please?

[rebel11]

Hi foxtrot

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will advise as soon as they are available, long paragraphs, might be an idea to shorten them.

[BazzaS]

If a traveller makes a mistake they are likely to NOT be charged with travelling without having paid their fare in advance, with intent to avoid their fare. Were they to be so prosecuted they'd likely be able to offer a defence.

 

There will be a bylaw covering not showing a valid ticket in demand which covers where there is no intent to avoid a fare.

 

There should be discretion both at the initial "interview" stage and at "decision for prosecution" stage. Thing is, how do you tell who is a persistent fare dodger? One of the steps will be the "onboard" staff making a report, the prosecutions office can then decide to take no action, or might write to the passenger, asking for their comments. At this stage, any previous occurrences (or lack of them!) can be considered.

In the end it is the responsibility of the passenger to hold a valid ticket or adequate funds in their "electronic purse".

 

"Do you have the right to pay the difference or what is owed? Please correct me if I’m wrong but I thought even a shop lifter had to be offered the opportunity to pay for the goods they were taking or face arrest? "

 

No, you have an obligation to have paid your fare in advance / have adequate funds on your Oyster (with some specific defences)

If someone shoplifts it is theft. The store doesn't have to offer them a chance to pay once they have left the store without paying. How about I nip round your house and take your expensive items - you come home just as I leave your front door. Do you want the police called and me arrested? How about as the police arrive I bung you a load of cash and you have to let me go free?. Crimes are criminal offences partly so there is a deterrent factor.

 

"3. Do you have the right to leave the bus immediately and deal with the inspectors outside? "

Unless arrested or informed that you are being detained you can leave the bus. So they can't claim they thought you were going to run off it would be wise to say something like "I've made a mistake but am finding it embarrassing being questioned here, I'd like to get off and you can interview me outside"

 

4. "4. Should you and is it right to provide details of other people who live at your address? I appreciate that in certain circumstances this may aid in proving who you are but this now involves others who may or may not want to be known at that address.. for criminal or genuine reasons alike. "

Judgement call. They only have the right to take your name. & address but if they aren't happy they are valid they might call the police ......

 

"5. Are there any Lawyers on here who act on behalf of Tfl or the Defendants, whom could add their comments and opinions relating to how you should act if a genuine mistake is made. If you were a lawyer and made a genuine mistake, how would you have dealt with this situation?"

 

I'm not a lawyer, but (here goes, as a non-lawyer)

I'd apologise for my error

I'd try to remain calm

I'd comply with any reasonable question

I'd hope that no report got made, or that the prosecutions unit would decide not to proceed

 

If I got a letter from the prosecutions unit I'd apologise again for my error, and the time taken up of the staff, explain it was a mistake (and how it had happened), give an undertaking to be more careful in future and offer to pay any outstanding fare and reasonable expenses / admin costs.

 

I'd do this as

A) it's the right thing to do due to my obligations, even if it was just a mistake, and

B) I'd prefer not to get a criminal record (not for intent to avoid a fare, but the more minor bylaw offence of "not showing valid ticket ")

 

The passenger also has the legitimate expectation to be treated fairly and with courtesy by the travel company's staff. However, the time to complain (if necessary) about any lapse in this is once the ticketless travel issue is resolved, else it can look like an attempt to sidetrack that issue.

[rambo]

Very few people make genuine mistakes, IME.

[andydd]

I was under the impression that you couldnt swipe in on bus or tube if there isnt enough money on your Oyster for the cheapest far.

 

For example if I only have £2 on my Oyster and I try to swipe in, it will refuse me entry, BUT if I have enough for a single Zone 1 journey (£2.20) it will let me swipe in and if I travel to zone 4 or 5 for example it will debit the amount of approx £3.50 from my card, it will let me out but the card will have -£1.30 on it, I havnt avoided any payment and the money will be taken, next time I top up my Oyster.