Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Another DVLA Sorn LLP attempted mugging to report!


Crossword
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 3739 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hi CAG! Well I have been through all the usual DVLA LLP nonsense stuff, and now just received response to Dispute form V991 saying how they appreciate that I thought I had fulfilled my responsibilities etc, etc, some of which I will quote below.

 

" whilst I appreciate that you thought you had fulfilled your responsibilities by correctly addressing the envelope, affixing a stamp, and placing in a royal mail post box, regrettably this is not the case. Instead, you have merely deemed to have 'sent' the letter as per section 7 of the interpretation act 1978. Furthermore you can only deem the notification 'sent' providing you can evidence that you put the correct address, inserted the relevant documents into the envelope, paid the correct postage and put the envelope into a post box. That action does not deem notification of change of keeper, and it does not constitute informing DVLA, which is what is required"

 

Then stating if unpaid further enforcement action will be taken as matters cannot remain unresolved and I remain liable for £80 LLP & dispute process now concluded.

 

Long story short, Vehicle owned by my Dad registered in my name, then sent completed V5 to transfer over to my Dad in spring 2013 by royal mail including a Sorn Form V890 completed by my Dad who was with me when it was all sealed, addressed, stamped & posted off to Swansea, my Dad had the car in his garage since Jan 2013 rebuilding the engine and I had earlier declared Sorn online.

 

DVLA sent me LLP notice Dec13 after old Sorn expired end October. Told DVLA I complied re interpretation act with my Dad as witness but they ignored. My Dad has finally got new V5 in his name showing correct date we originally told them after sending in a V62 & a new V890, but vehicle still showing as unlicensed on DVLA website. Informed DVLA several times I am a man of principle and will def defend in court with my Dad as witness.

 

So what chance have I got if it ends up in court! or should I just pay £80 and be done with it! to late to pay the lesser penalty of £40 now.

 

Opinions and advice greatly appreciated!

Link to post
Share on other sites

It could be down to timing and declaring SORN too soon. If they dealt with the SORN declaration before dealing with the change of registered keeper, the SORN declaration will have been in the name of the keeper at that time. When they changed the registered keeper, it automatically cancels the SORN - hence their claim for the LLP.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It could be down to timing and declaring SORN too soon. If they dealt with the SORN declaration before dealing with the change of registered keeper, the SORN declaration will have been in the name of the keeper at that time. When they changed the registered keeper, it automatically cancels the SORN - hence their claim for the LLP.

 

Hi Raykay, I Sorned online as soon as car was off the road at my Dad's 3 months before we sent V5 & V890...DVLA claim did not receive V5 or V890 and they have only just sent my Dad a new V5 with shows date of change of keeper as date we sent in original V5. My Dad had to send them a V62 to get new V5 in his name, he also sent a new Sorn V890 with date we changed keeper.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, I wonder if I'm due one of these letters then? I sent my V991 off in November and have heard nothing...

 

 

 

" Instead, you have merely deemed to have 'sent' the letter as per section 7 of the interpretation act 1978."

 

Given that the DVLA provide a POSTAL address in which to "send" notification to, what else could you have done?

 

In quoting the interpretation act back at you they seemed to have missed out the small part that states:

 

"the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document"

 

Given that the DVLA do not require to send via recorded/special delivery, what more could you have done?

 

You cannot be liable for their failure to process properly or the RM losing it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Always send this type of thing by tracked mail - at the very least obtain a free proof of posting from the Post office.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe DVLA should state this info should be sent in that manner, but they don't. Maybe this method is far too profitable for them, rather than helping their users use the service efficiently..?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Given that the DVLA provide a POSTAL address in which to "send" notification to, what else could you have done?

 

In quoting the interpretation act back at you they seemed to have missed out the small part that states:

 

"the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document"

 

Given that the DVLA do not require to send via recorded/special delivery, what more could you have done?

 

 

The answer that the DVLA sometimes come back with is that as the regulations do not authorise or require the document to be sent by post (the requirement is to 'deliver' the document), the Interpretation Act does not apply.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When I sent the V991 dispute form I included a signed statement by my Dad confirming he witnessed I sent the V5 along with his V890 notifying Sorn from the same date as change of keeper, I also included a copy of the my Dad's new V5 showing the correct date of change of keeper & a screen shot of DVLA web site showing the same date as on new V5 as date of liability which is 8 months before the date of the LLP! So it appears DVLA are quite happy to back date the V5 but as yet they have to notify my Dad that the vehicle is Sorn as web show unlicensed!

 

I would appreciate some advice as to whether I would win if it eventually goes to court or just pay £80 now....Something I am loath to do as I know I done as required by DVLA and I suppose the only error my Dad and I have made is not being on the ball and chasing the DVLA up re change and new Sorn! The other point is if DVLA had sent me a reminder when Sorn/Tax was due as is usually the case I would have spotted the error for sure and got it sorted but I didn't receive one.:-x

Link to post
Share on other sites

The answer that the DVLA sometimes come back with is that as the regulations do not authorise or require the document to be sent by post (the requirement is to 'deliver' the document), the Interpretation Act does not apply.

 

Yes Raykay, I believe thay have used this very point and I think they have succeeded, but where is it explained how it should be delivered:???:

Link to post
Share on other sites

That is the problem, the regulation states’ shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State – s.22, The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing Regulations 2002. - But it doesn’t state how.

The instructions on the V5C are to send it to Swansea and they give a postal address, and then they lose it and hide behind the small print in the legislation!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

So until the DOT/DVLA are forced to state exactly what method to deliver is acceptable, then they will continue to milk thier cash cow!! No wonder they do not want a Crown Court ruling....I wonder if members of the AA, RAC, etc, could get behind a petition to force DOT/DVLA to clearly state an acceptable method and then ammend s.22? Very unlikely I suspect!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

This Government website plainly says POST if you sell to a trader - but SEND if it isn't a trader.

 

https://www.gov.uk/notifying-dvla-if-you-sell-your-vehicle

 

How about a FOI to DVLA asking how many V5 they receive per year by post?

If not by post, what other methods do you receive V5?

How many V5s do recieve by these alternate methods?

Link to post
Share on other sites

This Government website plainly says POST if you sell to a trader - but SEND if it isn't a trader.

 

https://www.gov.uk/notifying-dvla-if-you-sell-your-vehicle

 

 

The government website is just general advice. Although sending by post is the recognised way of notifying them, the DVLA hide behind the legislation, which doesn't mention 'post' or 'send', when it suits them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well in the absence of anything official from DVLA, given that DVLA is a government agency and that is the government website, it's pretty clear advice imo.

 

 

Like most of the '.gov ' sites, it is only general advice and does not mention, or a link to, the relevant legislation where you can find the exact requirements.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been searching the web for a legal definition of the term "Deliver" re the interpretations act 1978 but I cant find anything specific!!

 

 

One stumbling block is that the Interpretation Act only applies if the act concerned authorises or requires service by post, which unfortunately it doesn't.

Link to post
Share on other sites

From a previous post

 

I have emailed DVLA asking them to define exactly what they consider is a proper way to deliver documents, ie by Royal Mail, hand delivered to Swansea or a local office and given receipt or diectly by hand to the Secretary of State, wonder if they will reply?

 

I am sure that a superior court would throw this out and then this would sort DVLA out, but its going to cost unless a Silk would do it Pro-Bono

 

 

Re my post (#98) I amazingly have had a reply to my questions from DVLA

 

quote: " I can confirm that it is acceptable to send documentation/applications via Royal Mail

 

It is at your discretion to use alternative forms of delivery

 

(signed)

 

L Hodgetts Customer Enquiry Group"

 

Don't know if this will help at all?

Link to post
Share on other sites

So it seems I have no choice other than to pay the £80 to DVLA for losing my V5! Is it known for the DVLA to not bother chasing a LLP after a dispute even though they said "if payment is not received, further enforcement action will be taken, matters can not remain unresolved" but they have not stated any time limit to pay it! Thoughts Please....Also at the end of the reply and after the name of the officer there is a box with:

 

1 As stated in section 7A of the vehicle excise and registration act 1994 (as amended) but I can not see any refference to it in the letter.:???:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd tell them to stuff it and to see them in court.

There is a FOI in progress:

 

Dear Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency,

 

Please can you tell me:

 

A. How many V5C registration certificates you receive per year by

post, for the last 3 years?

 

B. If not by post, please list other methods by which you receive

V5C registration certificates, for the last 3 years?

 

C. How many V5C registration certificates do you receive by these

alternate methods, for the last 3 years?

 

D. Finally, how do DVLA recommend V5C registration certificates are

sent to DVLA?

 

It will be interesting to see who they answer.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...