Work Programme Induction Meeting

[Mr.P]

That was when she threw the toys out the pram

That pretty much sums it up - As a mature adult, I'm sure you'd say the same as myself - Grow up and deal with it.

 

You won't get sanctioned for wanting to control who has your personal data or where it gets sent without your consent.

[Janette40]

wanting to control who has your personal data or where it gets sent without your consent.

 

Many thanks for this phrase It is nicely both concise and a legitimate reason for everything I have done that she complained about. I will use it if for any reason I do end up having to explain my actions to jcp.

 

Thanks again for all your help

 

Jan

[Janette40]

I received a "Good Reason Letter" about this today stating that I 'failed to undertake the activity that the wp told me to do'. I phoned the number on the letter for clarification, he said he can't give specifics on the phone (though may call back later with them) but outlined that it was failing to provide phone number or email, failing to bring cv (which wasn't true - I just refused to let them have a digital copy of it), failing to provide a photo id (which I neither had nor was asked for in advance) - he didn't mention the dp waiver though I'm guessing that was there also, and it also described a generally uncooperative attitude. I'm pretty sure reading these forums that I have done nothing wrong. The dwp person on the phone said I can do 2 things:

 

- 1 take it up with the wp provider so they can write saying they made a mistake (I'm not sure who I would contact within the company - certainly not my advisor, nor her manager who she consulted during my appointment - and I doubt they'd decide they made a mistake) - would it help my case to have at least made the attempt or would I simply be opening myself to further humiliation from them?

- 2 write back to the dwp (which is what the letter also states I should do explaining 'why I did not undertake this activity')

 

Is there anyone here with experience of writing such letters who can help me to write the reply I need to the dwp to help minimise my chance of being sanctioned over this?

 

Many thanks

 

Jan

 

 

PS - things I thought about that might help in the letter (though possibly not all of them would be useful):

- "uncooperative" is a subjective word, since I willingly went through the detailed questionnaire which took up most of the appointment, but did not want to give email/phone details, sign their waiver or leave them a copy of my cv, surely if I was generally uncooperative, I would not have helped with the questionnaire either

- the advisor's attitude showed noticeable anger following refusal to sign the dp waiver, followed by noticeable pleasure at telling me she would pass this back to the jcp. (She also refused to provide me with a copy of the questionnaire - though this might not be relevant - at least at this stage).

- I was not asked to bring a photo ID but she has included this in the referral

- the referral said I did not have a cv, though I had brought one with me but was only asked to provide a digital one they could keep

- this can only be about my attitude (if that is sanctionable based on what happened) as I have not been given any correctly issued MAN activities that I have not completed.

[Mr.P]

On the subject of confirming participant identity: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/264168/wp-pg-chapter-4.pdf

Identity Checks

68. You must ensure that in all communications with participants or their advocates you are satisfied you are engaging with the correct person.

69. To do this, you may decide to ask them to state a combination of their personal information such as:

• Full name.

• Address.

• National Insurance Number.

• Other information; such as details that were included within the original referral from Jobcentre Plus.

• Details you hold on your records.

No reference is made to a photo ID - Unless you have been issued with a DVLA Driver's Licence, or hold a current passport, there isn't really anything else that you could provide. I would contend that there is no legal requirement to carry or provide a photo ID anyway.

 

As for "not providing a phone number or email address" - Not everyone has one of either, and if your preferred method of contact is "in writing", the "benefit doubt" is little more than a spiteful response on the part of the provider.

 

Question: Did the WP provider issue you with a document that describes their complaint procedures ?

 

If not, then they are in breach of DWP guidance, and you should raise this when responding to the "good reason" letter.

 

Question: Did you record this "induction meeting" ?

If you did, then you'll have the evidence to show hostility from the "adviser" and that you had attempted to "engage" as best you could.... You could try "having reviewed the recordings and notes made during the meeting, I can find no evidence of...." even if no recordings were made.

 

Note: I have been accused of "having an attitude problem" - My response was, "No. You are the one that has the problem with my attitude."

[Janette40]

Many thanks for your reply. Yes I had a printed sheet with the complaints procedure, and I will likely be following that once this problem has been resolved one way or the other lol.

 

I think a lot of the issues are individually justifiable, though some more strongly than others, but I'm not sure how to word a response - the sanction doubt may be aimed at my overall attitude by creating a shopping list of otherwise acceptable issues. Should I address these one at a time or try to present an overall picture (or both)?

 

I've seen some threads have included the offer of helping with letter writing, is there another thread/part of the forum I should perhaps post this to for help with this, or maybe start a new one asking for letter writing help (in case the site's letter writers wouldn't think to look at this one from the title)?

 

I want to hold off using any recording as much as possible as they might make that a problem too once they suspect I might be recording. Also the hostility was subtle "passive aggressive" and although there are minor telltales there, it would be difficult to prove from a recording or transcript alone.

 

Many thanks

 

Jan

[Mr.P]

Generally, a "good reason" letter does not provide specifics of any benefit doubt - or at least the ones I've had didn't. As a result, you can only respond to information you have been provided. From what you have stated so far, the main points are:

• Failure to provide phone and/or email address.
  
• Failure to provide photo ID.
  
• Failure to provide a CV.
  

You have already stated that the original induction letter only asked you to "bring a copy of your CV", presumably, no mention was made that it had to be in a specific form or that it would be retained by the provider ?Likewise, no mention was made of a photo ID being required.As for phone and email, I've already commented on that in an earlier reply.The providers are expected to engage with clients with a wide range of personal problems, i.e. Mental health, drug abuse, or released prisoners - If provider staff have not had the training to deal with the more "disruptive" of customers, then perhaps they should be seeking employment elsewhere. Certainly, raising a vexatious benefit doubt for the flimsiest of reasons is contemptable at best.Concentrate your "good reason" response to specific points and avoid matters of opinion or conjecture. This would be along the lines of:

• Failure to provide phone and/or email address - Preferred form of contact is in writing. Not everyone has (or can afford) a telephone or regular internet access.
  
• Failure to provide photo ID - No mention of "photo ID" was made in the mandatory appointment letter, nor is it specified withing Chapter 4 of the WP Provider guidance.
  
• Failure to provide a CV - Was only asked to bring a copy. No mention was made as to retention or what use would be made of the data.
  

Each "good reason" response needs to be specific to the alleged "offence". For that reason, there can be no standard template, sorry.

[Janette40]

Many thanks for your reply I think I probably have enough now for a response letter, you've been very helpful

 

Just a quick question, in your experience (maybe either your own or from the forum), how often do doubts like this get dismissed and how often are they sanctioned even in situations with evidence/good reasons indicating they should not be?

 

Thanks again

 

Jan

[Janette40]

Hi - I have drafted a letter, if possible can you give me any feedback - eg anything I should add or anything that is inappropriate - and also if the wording re the DP waiver is correct and perhaps could be strengthened to match the other points.

 

I am writing in reply to the "Good Reason Letter" dated xxxx which stated that I "failed to undertake the activity that (work programme provider) told you to do." The specific activity was not described in the letter, but following a call to the number on the letter I was given a brief outline of some content from what was apparently a lengthy list of points. I would like to address the points that were given to me.

 

Preferred form of contact is in writing.

Not everyone has (or can afford) a telephone or regular internet access. Also I understand that all MAN notifications must be given in writing.

 

Failure to provide photo ID

No mention of "photo ID" was made in the mandatory appointment letter, nor is it specified within Chapter 4 of the WP Provider guidance.

 

Failure to provide a CV

I was only asked to bring a copy (which I did). No mention was made as to retention or what use would be made of the data.

 

Failure to sign Data protection Waiver and other documents

Signing the data protection waiver or any other Work Programme provider documentation is not mandatory according to DWP FoI publications. Also, my only objection to signing the only other form provided was that it included an agreement to sign the waiver, which I stated at the time.

 

Uncooperative attitude

Apart from the above I complied fully to everything I was asked to do, including a lengthy questionnaire.

 

I would like to add that the advisor appeared to be agreeable to all of these points until the point that I did not sign the data protection waiver. This was clearly the real issue and I feel the other issues were added back in in order to try to encourage the sanction.

 

If there are any further details you need, any issues in the referral that I have not addressed or anything that isn't clear from my letter, please don't hesitate to get in touch.

[Mr.P]

I am writing in reply to the "Good Reason Letter" dated xxxx which stated that I "failed to undertake the activity that (work programme provider) told you to do." The specific activity was not described in the letter, but following a call to the number on the letter I was given a brief outline of some content from what was apparently a lengthy list of points. I would like to address the points that were given to me.

 

Preferred form of contact is in writing.

Not everyone has (or can afford) a telephone or regular internet access. Chapter 4 of the WP Provider guidance states in paragraph 55 "that is for [the provider] to determine the most appropriate means of contact with the participant and evidence of the two way discussion must be recorded". As stated, my preferred form of contact is in writing.

 

Failure to provide photo ID

No mention of "photo ID" was made in the mandatory appointment letter that one was required.

[Enclose a copy of the appointment letter, no need to refer to WP guidance]

 

Failure to provide a CV

I was only asked to bring a copy (which I did). No mention was made as to retention or what use would be made of the data.

 

[Remove section on signing forms - Not relevant at present]

 

Uncooperative attitude

Apart from the above I complied fully to everything I was asked to do, including completing a lengthy questionnaire.

 

I would like to add that the advisor appeared to be friendly during the course of the meeting and became hostile when I declined to sign a Data Protection Act consent form. This was clearly the real issue and I feel additional spurious claims were included to add weight to a vexatious benefit doubt.

 

If there are any further details you need, any issues in the referral that I have not addressed or anything that isn't clear from my letter, please don't hesitate to get in touch and provide a copy of the compliance doubt form submitted by .

 

Some background information: The DWP have issued generic guidance that is common to all programmes that are contracted out, including the Work Programme. Annex 1 of Chapter 5 is worth printing out should the WP provider require you to sign a DPA consent form.

 

I'll sleep on it and see if I can come up with anything further to add.

[Janette40]

Many thanks for your helpful changes - did you come up with anything further after sleeping on it? Also one quick question:

 

Chapter 4 of the WP Provider guidance states in paragraph 55 "that is for [the provider] to determine the most appropriate means of contact

 

- couldn't that be interpreted as that the provider gets to make the choice?

 

Thanks again for all your help and the time you have put into this

 

Jan

[Mr.P]

The WP provider decides that contact will be made by way of text message with all participants. - Neither "appropriate" or reasonable. Whilst many have mobile phones, there are some of us that refuse to pay for, or carry such devices.

 

It is "appropriate" for the provider to discuss "preferred means of contact" that is reasonable in the participant's circumstances. If the participant does not have access to a computer or a telephone, then email/txt is not appropriate - I can think of any number of reasons why someone may not have a computer (condition of probation, fear of technology or lack of training, costs)...

[Beatrice Bee]

I have no camera on my current mobile but it looks like we have to go to JCP / WP meetings with a camera to take pictures of forms we are given to show why we refuse to sign it and what the form includes. Eg data protection waiver bundled up with action plan and only one place to sign the whole lot.

 

Obviously, they will refuse to give you a blank copy of the form you refused to sign so even better: if I refuse to sign, I keep the form to have evidence to post to the decision maker what kind of bull*cks it was they wanted me to sign.

 

It is illegal to bundle up data protection waiver with other docs and allow one signature for the whole lot. Dirty tricks they've got up their sleeves to rob you of your data protection rights.

 

Got a copy of the form you refused to sign? WP provider may get into trouble if you do and complain about it to JCP.

First you have to complain to WP provider, then to JCP if the issue is not solved.

 

What harm can come out from them having my mobile and email address? Apart from JCP googling them and catching out those working in the black market or holidaying abroad while not telling the JCP and posting pictures on Facebook of their third annual overseas holiday this year.

[Janette40]

Well the letter is on it's way, thank you for all you help

 

I was considering going through the provider's complaints procedure. Perhaps it would be worth waiting for the outcome of the compliance doubt first, whether or not it goes my way might affect the strength of my argument.

 

Also is making a complaint likely to lead to the issue I have seen on other threads of being pushed into applying for unpleasant jobs and onto silly courses out of spite? If so should I just move on and hopefully improve the relationship or still go ahead (and maybe try and prevent further bullying/intimidation).

 

I have no camera either, I'm also not very good at subtly taking pictures, if I tried to take a pic there is no way the advisor wouldn't be aware of what I was doing.

 

It is illegal to bundle up data protection waiver with other docs and allow one signature for the whole lot.

 

Is there anything I could use to back this up in case I need to appeal against a sanction?

 

Maybe if I do use the complaints procedure, I could add this in too, (though then I'd be complaining about the advisor and the company and so perhaps would get less help for or interest in the initial problem).

 

I'm still not sure of the pros and cons of giving out email/phone number and would welcome any suggestions/ideas either way. Sometimes the reason not to do something only becomes obvious after you have done it by which time it is too late.

 

Thanks again

 

Jan

[Beatrice Bee]

Common sense. They should be held responsible for what they have been up to because you probably not the first client whose signature they wanted to obtain under duress.

 

Consent should be informed and freely given. Under the threat of a sanction if not signing: how is this consent freely given when customer has been referred for compliance doubt for refusing to sign data protection waiver?

 

They should have given you notice in writing to bring a photo ID to the app. I'm from a post communist Eastern European block so won't be caught without my ID on me as it sits in my purse same place as credit card and Oyster. The British won't carry ID on them so where is their letter mandating you to bring photo ID to meeting?

 

Send a copy of the mandation letter as an attachment to your good reason letter and once a liar always a liar: prove it at one point [iD] that they are lying and their credibility is gone.

 

Who will quote the law about consent to be well informed and freely given?

[Beatrice Bee]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/29/section/7

[Beatrice Bee]

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/EU-Directive-95-46-EC--Chapter-1/92.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Act_1998

[Beatrice Bee]

EU Directive 95/46/EC - The Data Protection Directive

CHAPTER I - GENERAL PROVISIONS

Article 2 Definitions

For the purposes of this Directive:

(h) "the data subject's consent" shall mean any freely given specific and informed indication of his wishes by which the data subject signifies his agreement to personal data relating to him being processed.

[Mr.P]

Consent should be informed and freely given. Under the threat of a sanction if not signing: how is this consent freely given when customer has been referred for compliance doubt for refusing to sign data protection waiver?

 

Who will quote the law about consent to be well informed and freely given?

 

I refer you to post #34:

Some background information: The DWP have issued generic guidance that is common to all programmes that are contracted out, including the Work Programme. Annex 1 of Chapter 5 is worth printing out should the WP provider require you to sign a DPA consent form.

 

The afore mentioned document clearly states that consent is optional and will not affect a claimant's benefits if it is not signed.

[Janette40]

I think I'm going to take a few days away from this for now, now that the letter has been sent I feel I need a break from it. This is a completely new and stressful situation to me (I imagine a lot of people posting on the forum have at some point felt the same way) and I appreciate all the help and support you have given me. My confidence in the situation has grown and I feel a little less naive and a little more informed about the issues.

 

I've not been through any kind of complaints procedure about someone before so I will likely come back later and ask for some help on this. Thank you for the information you given so far and I will certainly include that. I know you have said I am not a nuisance but I still feel I am being with all of my questions. Thank you for your continued patience and help working through this.

 

Jan

[Beatrice Bee]

So if I do not sign the consent form to allow WP provider to contact my future employer, how will they confirm that I actually work there? If they can not confirm, they can not claim a job outcome payment.

 

Which would make me believe that with those who refuse to sign the consent form WP provider does not make as much effort to help them find work than with those who sign consent.

 

I did not sign the consent form. Finished WP a few weeks ago and don't feel provider helped me much. Is it the refusal of consent that they did not make much effort?

[Beatrice Bee]

WP Provider Guidance: Chapter 5Evidencing / Validating Payments

Job Outcomes and Sustained Job Outcomes

 

Written and Informed Consent via Designation Order

For legacy JSA and ESA Claimants

17.Providers are required to present all of their customers with a leaflet explaining the Departmental position in respect of

consent to contact an individual’s employer. (A fair processing notice)

18.DWP now has a designation order in place that allows the Department and Providers to contact the customer’s employer directly to validate employment details for the above benefit groups.

19. There is no longer a requirement for you to obtain customer consent to allow DWP to contact a customer’s employer or for you to contact an employer in connection with Outcome or Sustainment payments.

20.You may also share this information with the Department for Work and Pensions. For Contributory based JSA or Contributory based ESA for Universal Credit Claimants. 21.For the above claimant groups it is still necessary to obtain consent to contact an employer. See Annex 1.

 

[Mr.P]

Which would make me believe that with those who refuse to sign the consent form WP provider does not make as much effort to help them find work than with those who sign consent.

 

It makes no difference to the degree of "help" that you receive from a WP provider in finding employment. With or without your consent, the provider is the "data processor" and the DWP remain the "data controller". So what ever information you give to one can be shared with the other and any other (sub)contractor that the DWP/WP provider uses.

 

refusing to sign a DPA consent form is little more than an act of rebellion but does give a participant grounds to question what purpose personal information will be used for - If a satisfactory answer is not provided, then the demand for personal information can be rejected.

 

Let's face it, most of these WP "advisers" know nothing about the Data protection Act or their role as a data processor - Use the DPA to your advantage.

[Janette40]

Hi just a quick question - what is the situation if I have another meeting with the wp provider before the decision maker has made a decision, and the adviser starts asking me again to do the things I declined in the first meeting.

 

Many thanks

 

Jan

[Mr.P]

Tell him/her that you are awaiting conformation from a senior manager at the DWP. You could also suggest that the adviser consults Chapter 5 of the generic guidance notes that the DWP has published, specifically Annex 1. After reading it, ask him/her to justify the demand for personal information (i.e. CV) within the framework of the Data Protection Act when consent has not been given.

 

The same stance would be applicable should they ask for a photo ID (either passport or driving licence), with the added assertion that no mention of it was made in any mandation letter, nor is it required within the framework of Chapter 4 of the Work Programme guidance.

[jasta11]

I did not sign the consent form. Finished WP a few weeks ago and don't feel provider helped me much. Is it the refusal of consent that they did not make much effort?

 

No, I think most of us have found that the WP don't make too much of an effort with anyone, regardless. In that sense, they're very fair