Work Programme Sanctions

[starkidsara]

Hi, I'm currently on the Work Programme. I received a phone call from them today saying I'd missed an appointment with them yesterday and that the Job Centre have been informed and I will be sanctioned for 4 weeks for missing my appointment. However, I had no knowledge of this appointment. They didn't contact me by phone advising me of my appointment, they apparently sent a letter to my home which I never received. I have never missed an appointment with them and I normally get my new appointment when I attend but the last time I went I was told by my advisor that he was leaving his job and I would be allocated a new advisor who would call me to arrange an appointment.

 

Has anyone else had this problem and been sanctioned? I can't afford to lose 4 weeks money because of a mail error. The woman I spoke to was rude and blatantly told me "its not my problem" when I explained I hadn't gotten any letter about an appointment.

[Mr.P]

You should get a letter from the DWP in due course which will give you the opportunity to ask for a reconsideration and put your side.

 

If you normally get letters from the WP provider delivered in good time by Royal Mail, this would suggest that there is no problem with your postal service. If the provider claims to have sent out the letter in good time, make it their problem to prove that the letter was actually posted. It would also be worth trying to get a copy of this letter to make sure it complies with DWP guidance on issuing mandatory appointments.

 

Unfortunately, it is difficult to prove that you didn't receive a particular letter - If the provider has a track record of claiming to have sent out letters and failed to post them, or regularly issues non-conforming mandatory notices, you may get a decision in your favour on the balance of probabilities.

 

From this point on, I would recommend recording all conversations (if you have the facilities), demand copies of ALL paperwork and any further postings to use a RM Signed For service (a.k.a. recorded delivery). Never sign any documents until you have had a second opinion from an independent source and question everything they say to you.

Don't ever trust these providers and treat them the same as any door-to-door salesman or con-artist.

[starkidsara]

Thanks. I'll certainly be making sure I record all conversations I have with them in the future.

 

I'm hoping that seeing as I have a good record with not missing appointments with either the WP or the Job Centre that they might not sanction me. If they do I shall be appealing the decision and contacting Citizens Advice and my local MP. I have no idea why they didn't bother calling me, they have my phone number and my email address as well. They should at least ask people in the letters that they send out to ring on receipt of a letter so they know that people have received their correspondence, especially when a mislaid letter can cause someone to lose £280 which I can ill afford to lose.

 

I'm sick with worry that I'll end up with no money for a month.

[Mr.P]

I'm sick with worry that I'll end up with no money for a month.

 

There is nothing I can say that will alleviate that worry. All I (and the others here) can do is offer advice should the worse happen. In the meantime, a small suggestion that might help over the long term.

 

Have a look for a Credit Union in your area - Find one that can offer a good rate on a savings plan (an ISA is best) and commit to saving a little each week. Even if it is only a pound or two saved, it slowly adds up. Once you have been saving for a while, you will be able to access loans at a reasonable rate should you need one.

As an example, I manage to save £10 a week in a CU and can borrow up to £1000 at 12.7% should I need it (I don't as savings now give me that cushion). Oh, and I also get ~3% interest on the savings.

[Grumpyoldgit]

You say they have your phone number and email adress, can you remember if they asked you how you prefered to be contacted ?.

They are supposed to use your "prefered contact method" to contact you, even if you have specified otherwise they usually use the phone.

You have good grounds to question why they have sent you a letter if they have your phone number and your prefered method of contact is the phone.

I have just finished WP but got the date wrong on my last appointment, Ingeus had "tried to Phone" me ( I've no phone, told them 3 times the number they have is unknown to me), my new JCP advisor (nice chap) pointed out they had not used my prefered method of email and he would "make a note" of that giving me the impression this was of some relevance.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Grumpyoldgit
missing word

[Mr.P]

A Mandatory Activity Notice (which can be an appointment) must be made in writing and either handed to the claimant or posted in good time. Notification of a MAN can not be made by way of a telephone call, email, or text message as per http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-3a-22-october-2012.pdf - Further more, the MAN must include specified text which differs depending on which benefit the claimant is in receipt of (i.e. JSA or ESA). Failure to follow the DWP guidance renders the MAN void and provides grounds for a successful appeal should a sanction be imposed.

 

Note: A provider can falsely claim to have posted a MAN in good time as it is virtually impossible to disprove. The only way to counter this is to demand that all letters are sent using recorded delivery.

[san_d]

Note: A provider can falsely claim to have posted a MAN in good time as it is virtually impossible to disprove. The only way to counter this is to demand that all letters are sent using recorded delivery.

 

Can this request be retroactive? In other words, if you don't ask for recorded delivery before hand or the WPP refuse to send recorded delivery, are you done with it?

[RebeccaPidgeon]

A Mandatory Activity Notice (which can be an appointment) must be made in writing and either handed to the claimant or posted in good time. Notification of a MAN can not be made by way of a telephone call, email, or text message as per http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-3a-22-october-2012.pdf - Further more, the MAN must include specified text which differs depending on which benefit the claimant is in receipt of (i.e. JSA or ESA). Failure to follow the DWP guidance renders the MAN void and provides grounds for a successful appeal should a sanction be imposed.

 

Note: A provider can falsely claim to have posted a MAN in good time as it is virtually impossible to disprove. The only way to counter this is to demand that all letters are sent using recorded delivery.

On the balance of probability, if a candidate has addressed the requirements of each MAN (including attending meetings and activities specified therein), but a candidate did not attend a single meeting, then the likelihood is that either the Welfare To Work Clerk was deficient in not posting any controversial MAN, or that it was misdirected by the Postal Service. However, if the MAN was not handed to the individual in question during the previous meeting as would be commonplace, then unless the W2W Clerk used an audit process (such as recorded delivery), it could not be established beyond any reasonable doubt that the offending MAN was even sent.

[Charlotte_Henderson]

Hi, I'm currently on the Work Programme. I received a phone call from them today saying I'd missed an appointment with them yesterday and that the Job Centre have been informed and I will be sanctioned for 4 weeks for missing my appointment. However, I had no knowledge of this appointment. They didn't contact me by phone advising me of my appointment, they apparently sent a letter to my home which I never received. I have never missed an appointment with them and I normally get my new appointment when I attend but the last time I went I was told by my advisor that he was leaving his job and I would be allocated a new advisor who would call me to arrange an appointment.

 

Has anyone else had this problem and been sanctioned? I can't afford to lose 4 weeks money because of a mail error. The woman I spoke to was rude and blatantly told me "its not my problem" when I explained I hadn't gotten any letter about an appointment.

 

I had this problem once, ingeus sent me an appointment which i never received in the post. they threatened to sanction me unless i could prove i had good reason....how do you prove you didn't get a letter is beyond me?

 

In the end i had to write to the JCP to explain what had happened and lucky for me they believed me! and i didnt lose any money

[srteare]

I've just had a letter today from my work programme provider which is Wise Ability Limited, stating that I failed to turn up for an appointment on the 25th October, I did turn up signed in and out, but I can't prove that i was there, so my next appointment is tomorrow so we will see if they still have the sign in book

[Mr.P]

Record the conversation and demand a copy of the signing book or dated meeting notes before discussing anything else. Play hardball until you get written evidence of attendance on the 25th.

[srteare]

thanks, my appointment is this morning at 9.30am so i will do just that

[srteare]

yeah just got back from my work programme appointment, my adviser is denying that she had anything to do with the sanction for not attending my appointment on the 25th October, I did manage to get a letter from her stating that I did attend the appointment, is there anyway to find out who said I did not attend?, or is there anyway to report these people for their dishonesty

[Mr.P]

I did manage to get a letter from her stating that I did attend the appointment, is there anyway to find out who said I did not attend?

 

You can try asking (demanding ?) a copy of the WP08 from the DWP - This is the form that all providers must be completing and submitting to the DWP each time a benefit doubt is raised (DWP speak for a sanction). Part 5 of this form requires details of "tutor" or "adviser" to be filled in.

 

You may find that the DWP initially refuses to provide a copy of this form. If this is the case, then file a Subject Access Request for ALL data held by subcontractors (WP provider) and the BDC for your area.

[srteare]

You can try asking (demanding ?) a copy of the WP08 from the DWP - This is the form that all providers must be completing and submitting to the DWP each time a benefit doubt is raised (DWP speak for a sanction). Part 5 of this form requires details of "tutor" or "adviser" to be filled in.

 

You may find that the DWP initially refuses to provide a copy of this form. If this is the case, then file a Subject Access Request for ALL data held by subcontractors (WP provider) and the BDC for your area.

 

OK will try that and thanks for the help

[silverlight]

Hi, I'm currently on the Work Programme. I received a phone call from them today saying I'd missed an appointment with them yesterday and that the Job Centre have been informed and I will be sanctioned for 4 weeks for missing my appointment. However, I had no knowledge of this appointment. They didn't contact me by phone advising me of my appointment, they apparently sent a letter to my home which I never received. I have never missed an appointment with them and I normally get my new appointment when I attend but the last time I went I was told by my advisor that he was leaving his job and I would be allocated a new advisor who would call me to arrange an appointment.

 

Has anyone else had this problem and been sanctioned? I can't afford to lose 4 weeks money because of a mail error. The woman I spoke to was rude and blatantly told me "its not my problem" when I explained I hadn't gotten any letter about an appointment.

 

I'm not too sure if the same regulations apply to the WP as they do to the DWP.

 

Under those regulations it is sufficient for them to show that they posted the notification to the last known address and that the correct postage was paid. Whether you received that letter is here nor there.

 

I actually lost a case at a Tribunal on that basis recently. The DWP said that they had posted the letter to the last known address. I refuted that as I did not receive it. When I received a copy of that letter many weeks later, I found that it had been addressed to an address that I had not lived at for a year or two. The DWP refused to accept that as a valid reason for a late appeal which was agreed by the Tribunal some 12 months later.

In the Judgement the Tribunal made a point of saying that the DWP had carried out their duty and it was not their fault that I never received the letter.

[Perseus1]

In the Judgement the Tribunal made a point of saying that the DWP had carried out their duty and it was not their fault that I never received the letter.

 

I like your useful replies.

 

I receive quite a lot of misdirected Government letters (one a month) and some Government forms (about 1 in 50) sent to me go astray.

 

The other trouble is that some addresses get repeated misdirections. It happened more than three times so I had a word with the postman. I usually deliver them myself but this may be a day or two late.

 

I had a word with other people signing on. They said when the WP first started up locally they were understaffed and letters did not get sent out and people got sanctioned, but all were overturned when the same thing happened to more than one person.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Perseus1

[joeski]

can you get sanctioned if you call and say you can't attend an appointment because you arn't feeling well?

[Nystagmite]

can you get sanctioned if you call and say you can't attend an appointment because you arn't feeling well?

 

This came up on here recently. You can't be sanctioned and need to be covered by a JSA28, I think it's called. This is a form you fill in to say you're unwell and can't carry out job seeking activities.

[joeski]

This came up on here recently. You can't be sanctioned and need to be covered by a JSA28, I think it's called. This is a form you fill in to say you're unwell and can't carry out job seeking activities.

 

my friend was supose to see his advisor today but he isn't feeling well so he telephones the provider (ingeus) and said he won't be able to attend as he isn't feeling well. whoever he spoke to said they would get his advisor to call him. will they just re book the appointment or will anything else happen?

[honeybee13]

joeski, I think you have answers on another thread about this...

 

HB

[joeski]

joeski, I think you have answers on another thread about this...

 

HB

 

 

i know ive seen them and replying on the ingeus thread

[honeybee13]

It would be helpful not to have two sets of questions and answers please, joeski.

 

HB

[joeski]

It would be helpful not to have two sets of questions and answers please, joeski.

 

HB

 

true.