ESA Stopped for failing to attend appointment. Can somebody please help?

[bs0lth]

Well I am now holding bets that the DWP decision maker does not call be back before 5pm anyone else want to bet me anything different..

 

Ruby... I am really impressed with the app, I really needed it at the beginning of all of this, especially over the last three days, I just wish I had thought about it earlier.

 

and it works on a phone that actually was as cheap as chips...

[Guest]

methinks I am gonna look into this

[bs0lth]

Haha... I have another update... I did not believe that at 5 to 5 tonight that I would get a call from the DM, you could have knocked me down with a feather...

 

Can't believe this ....

 

and the call recorded all hour and five mins of it... you could hear the hoovers going in the background

 

I got to speak to the real live DM that was the start of all this shambles... and to be honest he explained everything a lot clearer, he explained why he made the decision. He went through the procedure for appeals as well, I was pretty shocked at the information I was given.

 

Upshot of all of this is, my claim was disallowed because 6 out of 7 letters / forms / appointments had gone missing, the fact that I got the last one which was a failure to attend proved that they had the right address. He said that his job was to make the decision on the evidence he had and it was probable that the letters had arrived with me because they did not come back. He said he could not see the letters on ATOS system but what he could see was a spreadsheet stating that they had been sent. He also said that Atos had not made the phone calls either..

 

We went all the way back through my claim and looked at the amount of mail that really does not get to me, so far in the last two weeks there are three letters from them informing me of their decision, how to appeal and the reasons I did not get the decision overturned when I asked for reconsideration. These letters have been sent out and I have not received them, so the problem is a little bit bigger than I first thought, it is not just ATOS letters that have gone missing.

 

Now he said that if I can get ATOS to confirm a problem with the letters or if they had been returned then he would look at my claim again. Well that is not going to happen is it? ATOS wrong of course not...

 

But he did say that he would also accept something from the Royal mail. most of my dealings with the Royal Mail has been through the customer helpline or phoning the delivery office direct. I got the number from the postman who was as concerned as I am. He suggested me contacting Royal Mail to ask them if they have a record of the times I have contacted them over the last year or so..

 

Which I have agreed to do tomorrow.

 

However, in November I reported the problem again of missing mail through the internet, I was sent an acknowlegement email from them dated November, and to be honest I had not thought about it, I also followed up the email in January, actually before the appointments were sent out by ATOS because i was waiting for a letter from the PPI claim I had made and after phoning the Credit card company I logged another complaint because they had written a month before with a settlement figure....

 

I also made another complaint in March and another in January... both of these were before I was sent the stuff from ATOS

 

I mentioned the email sent in January and the DM asked if I got a reply... while he was on the phone I looked for the reply and got it I read out the email to him, and he said that he could accept that as proof that I had reported problems to the Royal mail before my appointment letter was sent out...

 

I have an appointment at JCP tomorrow to get the printed copies of the emails sent over to him tomorrow...

 

He has agreed to have another look at my case and if he thinks there is justification and the reason is good enough he will overturn the decision tomorrow and I will have a payment by Friday...

 

my only other regret is I can not find the reply from the Royal mail in November, I think I might have deleted it by mistake, but i have printed out the acknowledgment and that can go in with the bundle to fax

 

The only concern though now is future appointments, I did raise this with him and he asked if there was anywhere else that I could have the ATOS letters sent. he suggested using my mums address as a c/o address until I got my appointment and then change it back to my address once I attend which seems like a reasonable request.

 

So tonight I am hopeful that I can get the decision over turned....

 

fingers, toes etc crossed

[bs0lth]

Ruby...

 

bought the cheapest android phone I could find a couple of months ago, search record telephone calls in the market and downloaded a free app to do it.

 

It looks like it works well and the feedback for it has been fantastic...

 

just looked and the app is called auto call record..

 

[Guest]

Good luck this all gets sorted for you tomorrow....and thanks I will look up the phones/record.

[bs0lth]

I am not holding my breath, if I am being honest I am convinced its going to go to tribunal, but I would love to be proved wrong...

 

please prove me wrong....

 

thanks for you help Ruby_Tuesday, appreciate it.. I will of course update tomorrow afternoon....

 

ahhhhhhhh

[Guest]

Well if you can prove there was an issue with your mail, which it sounds like you can, then surely they have to consider that. I would also be playing merry hell with royal mail over all this, just what the hell are they playing at? its a shame government depts. sending out this kind of mail (and the sidekicks atossers) don't have some kind of way of proving it was sent and then tracking it. The cost of tribunals must be ridiculous the amount that get heard.

I haven't helped much really, only my thoughts and things I have done in the past albeit with the dwp but different situation.

Fingers toes and if I could eyes crossed lol for you tomro.

[bs0lth]

Hi Ruby_Tuesday,

 

You say you haven't been much help, but to be honest everyone that has answered me has been a great help. The fact that people have given me new ideas to explore or just given me advice on where to look next has helped. Also what I have found helped the most is actually writing it all down, even if it got me nowhere its made me list things as they happen. My memory is shot to bits with the stress and this way its actually cementing it in my head...

 

When the DM called today I had a list of points that I wanted to discuss with him. I would have never thought about writing down specifics, but because I have been on here as much, and have read so much over the last week I felt armed enough to ask questions, demand answers and the whole conversation was focused. Which meant that if I did not understand a point he raised then I asked him to explain, and then I clarified it..

 

One of the links armed me with the information I needed to tackle the missing post issue. Because I was prepared with the question, it was expanded on and at this point when I asked, If I can prove that I have had problems before the appointment was sent out would you reconsider your decision and overturn it.

 

and all he said was Yes of course I will...

 

I then asked about emails if they were classed as valid proof...

 

so dont knock what you do, every little helps.

 

its funny though, I did say to him, I have faith in what I am saying, I am not lying and I know I will win on appeal.

 

he did say he knew I would win on appeal, and he knows that it will cost the taxpayer in the long run, but he had rules that he had to adhere to which was not personal, not vindictive, but part of the job he did. Which is understandable.

 

I am about to go to bed now, I really really hope that what I have found is enough. I did not ever dream that I would have to prove that I was not getting mail delivered otherwise in hindsight every complaint I lodged I would have done over the internet so there was a paper trail.

 

you live and learn....

 

and thanks for crossing everything... my eyes have been crossed for the last three days I have done so much reading into the night

 

[speedfreek]

Upshot of all of this is, my claim was disallowed because 6 out of 7 letters / forms / appointments had gone missing, the fact that I got the last one which was a failure to attend proved that they had the right address. He said that his job was to make the decision on the evidence he had and it was probable that the letters had arrived with me because they did not come back. He said he could not see the letters on ATOS system but what he could see was a spreadsheet stating that they had been sent. He also said that Atos had not made the phone calls either..

 

see rightsnet thread as the spreadsheet doesn't prove anything nor can they produce the ATOS letters so...

 

We went all the way back through my claim and looked at the amount of mail that really does not get to me, so far in the last two weeks there are three letters from them informing me of their decision, how to appeal and the reasons I did not get the decision overturned when I asked for reconsideration. These letters have been sent out and I have not received them, so the problem is a little bit bigger than I first thought, it is not just ATOS letters that have gone missing.

 

Now he said that if I can get ATOS to confirm a problem with the letters or if they had been returned then he would look at my claim again. Well that is not going to happen is it? ATOS wrong of course not...

 

Erm no! This is not your job it's his to prove that they were sent/received! This is a classic misdirection and they are trying to place the responsibility from them to you. This is unacceptable!

 

But he did say that he would also accept something from the Royal mail. most of my dealings with the Royal Mail has been through the customer helpline or phoning the delivery office direct. I got the number from the postman who was as concerned as I am. He suggested me contacting Royal Mail to ask them if they have a record of the times I have contacted them over the last year or so..

 

Which I have agreed to do tomorrow.

 

Whilst I would do this, this could take a lot of time. Plus all it will do is add weight to your mail problem argument! It does not address the issue which is 6 out of 7 allegedly sent mail has not arrived, nor does it prove anything was sent at all.

 

However, in November I reported the problem again of missing mail through the internet, I was sent an acknowlegement email from them dated November, and to be honest I had not thought about it, I also followed up the email in January, actually before the appointments were sent out by ATOS because i was waiting for a letter from the PPI claim I had made and after phoning the Credit card company I logged another complaint because they had written a month before with a settlement figure....

 

I also made another complaint in March and another in January... both of these were before I was sent the stuff from ATOS

 

I mentioned the email sent in January and the DM asked if I got a reply... while he was on the phone I looked for the reply and got it I read out the email to him, and he said that he could accept that as proof that I had reported problems to the Royal mail before my appointment letter was sent out...

 

This is all good! Especially as you can produce it now.

 

I have an appointment at JCP tomorrow to get the printed copies of the emails sent over to him tomorrow...

 

He has agreed to have another look at my case and if he thinks there is justification and the reason is good enough he will overturn the decision tomorrow and I will have a payment by Friday...

 

my only other regret is I can not find the reply from the Royal mail in November, I think I might have deleted it by mistake, but i have printed out the acknowledgment and that can go in with the bundle to fax

 

The only concern though now is future appointments, I did raise this with him and he asked if there was anywhere else that I could have the ATOS letters sent. he suggested using my mums address as a c/o address until I got my appointment and then change it back to my address once I attend which seems like a reasonable request.

 

So tonight I am hopeful that I can get the decision over turned....

 

fingers, toes etc crossed

 

Well that all looks a lot better and since you can prove that you have reported issues with post, coupled with the lack of telephone calls (although this is a minor issue as they are a courtesy. Only the letters have to be legally sent) and the fact that you replied to the only letter you had promptly (plus everything else you have now done) all looks good.

 

I'd collate what you have now and send that in and say that you have made a request to the post office for further information. BUT the evidence you have should be sufficient even without that so you wish a decision now.

 

The DM trying to shift responsibility to you and reaffirming the argument we sent them and you received one so... that's the worrying part especially as the rightsnet thread say they know a tribunal should rule in your favour with the evidence you have.

 

So let's hope that the DM sees sense and apply the rules correctly.

 

Remember too this will take time and there's still the chance it will not go in your favour even with all this.

 

Sorry to be a bit of a damp squib but.... you have to be prepared for that! So continue pushing for that WCA just in case and the stuff with your MPs.

 

Now we still have your day to day issues.

 

So get that food parcel etc off the Council. - you're not receiving benefits at this point so do it!

 

If the recon goes in you favour then hit the DWP for a ST benefits advance.

 

Also investigate the GP/medical care side of things as they might be able to get you access to a food bank or know of other help available. Everything is worth a shot here.

 

You should go and see your GP anyway as a precaution before any WCA! Since there's always the chance you will fail the WCA (even death is no guard against being declared Fit For Work (sic)) Seeing them before hand and updating them on your condition so that they have a current point of reference makes it easier for them to write a new fitnote/MED 3. Especially since it usually takes at least 2 weeks for the DWP decision and your GP will have to back date the fitnote to the date of failure. GPs are under pressure not to backdate so doing this as a precaution makes it far easier trust me.

 

Now with what you are going to send to the DM remember at the top of every sheet of paper you send in mark it thus;

 

Name: XXXXXXXXXX ESA NI No:XXXXXXXXX - Date: XX/XX/XX Page No:X

 

Include a list of what you have enclosed referenced by page No:

 

I think that's it. Now go get em tiger

[Guest]

Yeh give it to them big style ....

[bs0lth]

Morning Speedfreek,

 

Thanks for replying in such detail.

 

I quoted your from your link on rightsnet about Atos not being able to produce the letters nor does the speadsheet prove that the letters were sent only that my name was entered onto their spreadsheet not proof that the letters were sent at all.. but he deflected this, because the last of the letters arrived then he still until the last bit of the conversation was adamant that I had received them all. I failed to get the questionaire from ATOS then failed to get the follow up letter, so the DWP wrote to me to tell me they were stopping my ESA, so I called them and said I had not received it. So filled one in that I picked up from Then I missed an appointment and the BF223 did not turn up, hence the letter in November sayiing my benefit was stopping... then the appointment letter did not turn up but the BF223 did.. which is what he has based his decision on... all of the times that the letters did not turn up dont count. I know if I send something and it does not turn up then I have to prove I sent it. I would send everything recorded delivery for a signature but it gets expensive, thats why I get the certificates of posting, proves I sent it, but not that it was delivered.

 

I know that its all mis-direction, and if it went to tribunal they would have to prove the letters were sent, but a tribunal is months away, my new claim and medical is months away, I needed to do something to get them to change the decision now. It is one of the reasons I wanted to talk to a DM rather than one of the call center staff, they just parrot what is in front of them. In my case wrongly or misinterpret what they are reading which causes more problems not solve them.

 

Most of the time I have talked on the phone to Royal Mail, my postman gave me the local delivery office number to call them, as they are the ones that deal with sorting my mail out. Stupid I know, because there is

no paper trail, so it comes back to my word your word... nothing to prove that I was actually talking to them. The only reason that I used the internet in November was I was on the Royal Mail site looking for information on what they could do to help, I needed to know if there was any way to get them to do something more than they were doing. Having them say that they will be more careful of my mail in future and that they will make the sorters aware that there is a problem just hasn't been doing it. I had my computer on in front of me during the conversation, this is why I asked about emails as proof...

 

Right, the good news I can produce the emails, strange the way they are dated, but when something has happened I have reported another missing letter, with all of this going on I made another complaint a week

ago and followed it up yesterday when I was make aware that another three letters have gone astray... but your right it takes time to get information back from companies. Even if I was to do a SAR on the Royal mail (I have my own account/complaint number now) you are still looking at 40 days which yet again takes me all the way to June... I am going to do it, just for future reference if this happens again.

 

I have the emails all ready printed out and ready to go also a covering letter, you make a good point about putting my name and NI number on each page. What I am supposed to do is go to my appointment at 1pm and have them fax them directly to the DM and then ask the person I am dealing with to either phone or email him to confirm that they were in his hands. As he said it could end up in new claims, or in a different department so it will take days to get to him... so thats another reason for the covering letter with FAO his name.

 

I know that this might not be enough, the DM did say that he had no doubt at all that I would win at tribunal, which makes this whole thing crackers in my mind, that it has to go as far as a tribunal for something that they know they are going to loose. I did say this to him as well..its a complete waste of money and resources. But looking at t cynically is it? how many people just dont fight and listen to what they say and then go sign on for JSA? it gets people off ESA which is what they are wanting...

 

I have a meeting with my GP early next week, need to go through stuff with him and timing is right as well...

 

council should now help, I need to phone them back, at least it will give me a couple of days help.

 

DM said that if he overturned the decision then I will have backdated money tomorrow... he is willing to look at the evidence as soon as he gets it and make his decision. but he did ask if I had anything at all from Royal mail about the problems that was before ATOS sent out the appointment letter...

 

One other thing I asked was would it make any difference to get the guy from the other 6 mystreet to write to them to explain the problems we are having with the mail and the system we both have of me dropping his mail off and him dropping mine off, and he said to be perfectly honest it wouldn't do any good, he needed stuff from Royal Mail.

 

I know I am going to fail the WCA I have in the past, it went to tribunal and I won, so that's not going to phaze me I just have to be prepared I will go back to my doctor as soon as I get the medical and start to collect sick-notes from there.. I have learned.

 

I know that this is not a done and dusted thing today, but its the first time that its all started that I feel I might have a chance, i also have the recording of the conversation yesterday, my only regret is that I have no credit left on my phone so I have to use the job center ones today and will not have a record of the conversation.

 

Hopefully it will be a good outcome, but nothing is certain, however if it does not happen today I will be back to them wanting a full breakdown of why it was not overturned. so fingers toes and eyes crossed that he sees reason...

[bs0lth]

Speed freek

Just put my name and NI number on each sheet with FAO DM's name... your right nothing to be too careful

 

Ruby+Tuesday

 

Thanks...

[Mr.P]

Even if I was to do a SAR on the Royal mail (I have my own account/complaint number now) you are still looking at 40 days which yet again takes me all the way to June... I am going to do it, just for future reference if this happens again.

 

A SAR on Royal Mail will probably turn up very little. Copies of your emails, maybe a note or two of when you telephoned and if you are really lucky, the postman's delivery notes - Each delivery round has an accompanying set of notes. Which house has a dangerous dog, unsafe access, and so on.

I'd suggest ringing the local delivery office and asking the manager if he could send you a copy of the notes for your house and for the other number 6.

[bs0lth]

Hi Mr. P.

 

I had no idea that this is what goes on, I will give the delivery office a ring and ask if they can send them out to me.

 

Do you know how far this will go back, I have had problems for a while now, and if it would go back 12 months or so would be a great help

 

Thanks for your reply you have given me more to do

[bs0lth]

So went for my 10 min appointment with the JCP...

 

I took all of the information that I had, including a cover note, The nice lady I saw told me that she would send the information over, when I asked her to fax the information straight away because the DM would be expecting it by then she told me she couldnt do that. after arguing for the full 10 mins appointment she went and faxed it over and put a copy into their mail system. The appointment sheet stated that i was there to fax documents over because this is what the reception asked ... and I know the DM had put his fax number on the appointment sheet so they would go directly to him so what on earth was her problem.

 

I asked if she could email over a question that I had with the documents and was told no you will have to use the phones to get the benefits center to do it for you....

 

Ok so phoned the call center again...

 

and if I did not have I copy of what I was told last night I would seriously doubt that anything was going to get done.

 

Seemingly this is only the call center script merchants version of this...

 

I have my original case opened and the new will have to be closed because i cant have two claims open at the same time and that I should not have made another claim for ESA when it was open in the appeal stage.. but it was closed on teh 15th of march I tell him... no it wasnt and you should not have been advised to open another case until you appeal was heard... erm no thats not what I have been told.

 

Oh you wont get paid until you go for a medical...

 

oh and its not good enough that you have emails from royal mail we have to investigate them and contact royal mail to see if there is any problem with your mail or if you have reported problems...If this was the case why did the DM not start the investigation 6 weeks ago, why did I have to prove that I have had dealings with the royal mail, if they are going to investigate and its going to take 6-8 weeks why hasnt it been done before closing my case, or when I asked for reconsideration???

 

reading between the lines, I think my claim might have been reopened all ready, because he also said that an enquiry has been sent to the mortgage team... erm I havent asked for that, thats what I was going to do after the claim had been reopened..

 

Is it just me?

 

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Guest]

keep the MP updated.......

[bs0lth]

Hi Ruby_Tuesday...

 

:whoo::whoo:

 

Im so happy so so happy....

 

I have just had a phone call from the DM

 

He has received my fax, and has reopened my claim

 

Basically what he said is that he will now take the emails from royal mail into account, it shows that I have been proactive about sorting out the problems with the mail and that I was dealing with it before the last set of letters was sent out. He is happy that there is a reason for not getting the mail.

 

I am still convinced that ATOS has a problem at their end but we shall see what happens next.

 

So he has reopened my claim, I will get a payment tomorrow...

 

he is closing the second case because I cant have two open at once

 

he has all ready contacted the mortgage people to sort that mess out and get me sorted there

 

he has all ready notified the appeals section to tell them that he has over ruled the decision

 

and he was shocked when I told him what the call center staff had said on the phone, and even more shocked when I told him the JCP was not going to send the fax....

 

so for now I have a result, I think

 

:whoo:

[bs0lth]

I still want to complain about the misinformation... and I will update my MP, and to be honest I still need to go through the stuff from the SAR

 

now do I go back to the LA and ask for my 3 days of food ?

[bs0lth]

I never in a million years thought that I would be updating this again as soon... I was happy for a little while but thought i would just show you how bad this has got..

 

At 16.56pm yesterday I was called by the decision maker, we discussed things as per above, and I felt happier that something might actually be done...

 

At 14.47 pm today I was called by the DM and told me that he had revised his decision, that he was happy with the proof I had given him

 

At 15.57 today I was called by the DWP and told everything was sorted out, new claim closed, that they had made a payment into my bank, and that once that had gone into my bank they would sort out the missing mortgage help

 

At 16.12 pm today I was called by the DWP to tell me that they got asked to call me, (numpty from this mornings call got it all wrong) and proceeded to tell me that because I had failed to attend a medical that no payment would be issued until I attended the medical. Also they would make sure that the appointment was fast tracked so I should her from ATOS within 4 weeks....

 

There was stunned silence on the phone when after she had told me this I told her...

 

I am very sorry but you have this wrong, my appeal had been heard, the decision has been overturned and they have allready issued a payment..

 

she said I am sorry but you are wrong...

 

then she said... oh I dont know whats happened by your claim has just been updated, your new claim has been closed...

 

Its getting more and more unbelievable by the hour....

[bs0lth]

It doesn't look like I will be getting any help from the local authority...

 

because

 

My ESA has just been put in my bank.....

 

[SWLABR9]

Good, but you should still keep your MP informed about all of this.

[Guest]

What a fiasco......yes please.......keep your MP informed about this!!! Am glad you got the ESA but please do make sure your MP knows all of this.

[bs0lth]

Hi Swlabr9 and Ruby_Tuesday.

 

intend to keep everyone informed, its a joke the call center after talking to the DM he was telling me a whole load of rubbish, but he passed on my query to completely the wrong person in completely the wrong department, he passed it onto new claims.. Hillarious especially when I gave him the name of the person to pass on the information to... And then to get a call back telling me I could not have any money until I had a medical after they had done the bank transfer is just a farce. The last woman was adamant that I was completely wrong and did not know what I was talking about until she double checked.

 

It would save a whole lot of time and money and stress if everyone double checked the situation before spouting off what they think is going on.. sigh

 

Well this battle over and done with i now have to fight to save my house... cos got problems there, but at least its starting to get sorted which is a step in the right direction.

 

What a mess all because I did not receive a flaming appointment letter in the first place.

[Guest]

Agreed...and I really hope it gets sorted re your house. All the more reason for this situation to get the full "airing" to anyone with any clout that may be able to help. Its not just the DWP, I find so many places now just don't know their a*** from their elbow, in some cases due to so many staff cuts those who are there have a ridiculous workload, in other cases I really wonder how they got the job in the first place, it beggars belief.

 

Good Luck and stay strong. We are all here to listen and put in our thoughts, experience and knowledge, if needed.

[bs0lth]

I just really upset with the whole thing, i worked from 16 to four years ago, I worked full time as my daughter was growing up and because I earned £4 more than the limited for working tax credits I got no help what so ever with child care or anything else, my friend at the time worked 18 hrs a week on minimum wage and after we both added up exactly how much she got, with benefits, wages help with her rent and council tax and child care she actually got £8k a year more than me. at that point I really wondered what I was doing, but got through it.

 

I hit a seriously bad time 4 yrs ago, I worked in IT and had major problems with my boss, he decided that he did not like women working in IT and in the two years that he worked there he managed to get all of the women to leave. I actually put in a formal complaint against him when he offered the "lads" on the team with the job description as me the training I had been denied for the two years previous, that he then declared all out war on me when HR upheld my complaint...

 

the stress nearly killed me, its not a good way to work, and in the end I had a nervous breakdown and ended up finishing because I just could not do the job any more. The head of HR knew what was going on and tried everything to get me to stay, even offering me a job in a different department, but I really did not want to do that..

 

In the end I was diagnosed as being Bipolar which actually made a lot of sense to my family, and even though I get wobbly head occasionally now I know how to cope and get my meds upped.. my biggest thing though has been trying to keep my house, its been bad it gets better but after I was on top of things for months its ended up that this has wrecked what the keeping it together, so now I am basically back to square one.. i was one payment away from loosing it over the last year. I am going to try to do damage limitation again, its been a nightmare but at least with money in the bank and the DWP sorting out the mortgage payments I might be able to avoid disaster...

 

However tonight I am not going to think about it, thats going to be the job for tomorrow and the weekend, I need to change heads so to speak.

 

I really just want to go back to work, go work pay my bills and plod through life again... but the medication I am on makes it really difficult to do.. that and the fact my spine is crumbling... not good if I go back into IT and try to lug round the equipment.

 

Sigh it never stops, but tonight I am celebrating the fact that I got the decision overturned and I just cant believe it...