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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Employment Appeal Tribunal Oral hearing help needed


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I am trying to understand where part of billy's reasoning come from.

I am not saying he shouldn't feel aggrieved or upset because every normal, decent person woud be in his situation and what he went through.

The problem is we only get chunks of info here yet if billy is happy to provide us with more details surrounding his resignation, we will have a chance too see bigger picture.

 

I have seen that "bigger picture" many times on these boards and it is a very ugly big picture. I think that the ET has become irrelevant as it was unable to remain even handed. I think that a lot of Tribunal staff will be sacked in the forseeable as claims dwindle. Will they bother to fill in an ET1 do you think?

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I have seen that "bigger picture" many times on these boards and it is a very ugly big picture. I think that the ET has become irrelevant as it was unable to remain even handed. I think that a lot of Tribunal staff will be sacked in the forseeable as claims dwindle. Will they bother to fill in an ET1 do you think?

 

I hope so, or I'll be out of a job...

 

The legal world is predicting that there will be an increase to the complexity of litigation, because with the two year length of service requirement, people will be sneaking in claims through the back door on the back of discrimination/whistleblowing/health and safety breaches. That will mean protracted litigation and usually a PHR to dispose of any misconceived claims - so I don't think its likely that the ET staff will be out of a job.

 

Lawyers, on the other hand!...

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You should note that you can't seek to bring a claim in another forum (i.e. the county court) which has already been decided by a previous court or tribunal. So there's a good chance you couldn't bring a claim based on primarily the same facts.

 

 

???????

As long as any appeal process is active and one has got strong grounds for appeal (i.e. there was a serious flaw during the process of that particular court), one is encouraged to start claims in different courts.

Edited by ms_smith
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In most cases where there are concurrent proceedings between the same parties in both the court and the employment tribunal, the employment tribunal proceedings will be stayed pending the outcome of the court proceedings. There is a recent case in which the EAT stated that concurrent proceedings should be avoided and it would usually be preferable to stay the tribunal proceedings pending the outcome of the court proceedings. However, a decision here has been made.

 

Therefore, estoppel is relevant here as it prevents claimants from bringing the same claim twice. The only point to consider is whether there are separate issues to be determined - and this is clouded by the fact that an appeal presumably would not be stopped pending a county court outcome, which would be the usual thing to do.

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Isn't it depressing to know that people can get away with all those lies!! Money talks definitely. Browncow when are you going to ET or are you in the middle of a hearing? Is there anything I can do to help you?

 

Thanks for the offer. it is kind of you but I just have to face the reality.

 

I am set to go next week and can only hope for a moral victory.

 

It has cost me a lot of money and it really was just a total waste of time as nothing will change.

 

While I could continue working if I wanted to I really just want to get away from the low lives.

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???????

As long as any appeal process is active and one has got strong grounds for appeal (i.e. there was a serious flaw during the process of that particular court), one is encouraged to start claims in different courts.

 

I think the big legal firms ( ususally acting for large companies or public bodies) have wrecked it for all practitioners because they deliberately targetted Claimants personally and would take any load of s**t to a full hearing just to get more money. The legal and moral arguments became secondary to monetary interests and tactics so the ET became cut off from the mainstream.

 

Employment Law only exists inside the Tribunal rooms. Employers know that they can do what they like and, unless they are really unlicky, get away with it..

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Dear Browncow, let me remind you that Employment Tribunals are designed to seek one's justice. Justice will vary in every case and claimant's feelings but that's different kettle of fish.

 

You have to prove you need justice first, not the money. The amount of any amoney you will claim may be huge but if it doesn't meet with justice you would have to express in the first place, you come across as misconceived.

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Y All the evidence is there and it will be efficiently presented but there are so few remedies in law and the awards are so stingy that it is really a lot of hard work stress and expense for nothing. I am sure that the Tribunal will bend over backwards to exonerate the employer as they did in Billybob's case.

 

Why should I personally have to pay thousands to illustrate that workers are harassed, policies are flouted or ignored , poor practice is justified and internal grievance processes are a tool of victimization when it is already well known and nobody cares?

 

As for the so called unions - they bear little resemblance to the original organizations that fought for social justice and equal rights -

 

 

Get an accident and injury policy and some legal insurance folks and take them to the county court if your health or wellbeing is damaged by your working environment.

 

 

Browncow I am with you on this one! Every single point you make is so relevant especially the grievance process being a tool for victimisation! I have had another day of enormous stress and anguish all because of my ex-employers. I am growing old and going grey with worry whilst they sit with their huge bank accounts knowing that they will most probably win. I went to watch an Employment Tribunal for a young man on his own. I sat for a couple of days and listened intently to the whole case (it was harassment and constructive dismissal). During the breaks I spoke to the young man and gave him support as he was on his own. The respondent's witnesses were obviously lying. Their stories did not correspond with each other's and whilst one was giving his statement and asking questions the other was sitting look agitated as this particular witness was giving a different version of events to the one he had given. Anyhow I sat their thinking the Tribunal would definitely find in the young man's favour. It was obvious to me that this young man had suffered and was alone with no representation and the respondent was lying! But not to the Employment Tribunal he lost the case! I was so shocked I actually felt like crying because of the injustice. However he simply walked over to them and shook their hand (which I would not have done). As we walked out of the room I told him how sorry I was and how brave he had been and honourable to shake their hands. He said I am the better person and I know I didn't lie. I can now put all of this behind me and get on with my life!

 

I really do think there should be a government support unit/advisory group for people going through the Employment Tribunal process so that at least they have a fair chance at winning their case.

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Dear Browncow, let me remind you that Employment Tribunals are designed to seek one's justice. Justice will vary in every case and claimant's feelings but that's different kettle of fish.

 

You have to prove you need justice first, not the money. The amount of any amoney you will claim may be huge but if it doesn't meet with justice you would have to express in the first place, you come across as misconceived.

 

And what precisely is "one's justice"? I thought it was just justice and if equally applied should not vary all that much if decisions are being made fairly based on the same criteria.

 

There is no money in my claim. I would break even, if I won.

 

I resent your calling me "misconceived" . That is not an adjective to apply to a peson anyway and you have no right to disparage me.

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And what precisely is "one's justice"? I thought it was just justice and if equally applied should not vary all that much if decisions are being made fairly based on the same criteria.

 

There is no money in my claim. I would break even, if I won.

 

I resent your calling me "misconceived" . That is not an adjective to apply to a peson anyway and you have no right to disparage me.

 

 

It is all about principles/justice/compensation/honesty/integrity - that is the whole point of going to Employment Tribunal - it certainly isn't for the fun of it as there is no fun to be had when you are forced into a situation you don't want to be in through no fault of your own. From what I have heard from many people Employment Tribunals just aren't fair at all.

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It is all about principles/justice/compensation/honesty/integrity - that is the whole point of going to Employment Tribunal - it certainly isn't for the fun of it as there is no fun to be had when you are forced into a situation you don't want to be in through no fault of your own. From what I have heard from many people Employment Tribunals just aren't fair at all.

 

Browncow wrote:

 

While I could continue working if I wanted to I really just want to get away from the low lives.

Browncow, how else should this be interpreted?

There is nothing wrong with wanting a lot of money as a way of compensation but one should rather be motivated by justice, rather than "wanting to get away from the low lives".

Trust me, there are hundred ways to get away from sth you are not happy with.

 

I believe in justice (after I believe in the power of truth). I also believe that if you really want it and pursue it, you will explore all possible avenues of knowledge so as to get it.

I agree tribunals or other courts do not always deliver that justice but very often it happens that a lawyer you take on screws up your case so is it really the court's fault?

Also, one shouldn't wait for the judges to take care of everything. They deal with hundreds of cases every year so why should they be an unrepresented claimant's representative?

 

Browncow, I just want to warmly advise you to think over what you want from this process. No offence.

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Browncow wrote:

 

While I could continue working if I wanted to I really just want to get away from the low lives.

Browncow, how else should this be interpreted?

There is nothing wrong with wanting a lot of money as a way of compensation but one should rather be motivated by justice, rather than "wanting to get away from the low lives".

Trust me, there are hundred ways to get away from sth you are not happy with.

 

I believe in justice (after I believe in the power of truth). I also believe that if you really want it and pursue it, you will explore all possible avenues of knowledge so as to get it.

I agree tribunals or other courts do not always deliver that justice but very often it happens that a lawyer you take on screws up your case so is it really the court's fault?

Also, one shouldn't wait for the judges to take care of everything. They deal with hundreds of cases every year so why should they be an unrepresented claimant's representative?

 

Browncow, I just want to warmly advise you to think over what you want from this process. No offence.

 

Well you are giving offence.

 

Why are you preaching?

 

There is no issue of " a lot of money". It costs £10000 to bring a 5 day case and it may go on longer. I might break even, if I win.

 

 

I have had to deal with lies and manipulation and while I still have the job I no longer want to work for those people. I will leave after the case win or lose.

 

I really do not need to hear this from you as I go to court in a few days.

 

Please stop trying to justify your views at my expense and don't give me any more advice WARM or otherwise.

 

 

Also do not ask me to"trust you" . The idea that I am spending thousands to get away from an employer is your idea and it is an absurd interpretation of my post.

Edited by Browncow
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Hi,

 

just starting up this thread again.

 

In response to browncow I am sorry what you have to go through mate, I'd be interested to know what you are going through. I am about to submit an review with regards to lodging an appeal. Are you in the middle of the appeal? What is the general consensus? Seems really bad.

 

I want to request a review of my ET hearing, because I don't think the judges read the bundle as the evidence submitted showed without a shadow of a doubt that since the new line manager took over they had a plan to sack me despite the fact that they knew I had suffered a bereavement 6 months earlier and only taken 4 days off (compassionate leave)

 

The line manager picked up on a performance review that had been through at the beginning of the year, again 6 months prior. I need to be honest and state that I was turning up late and had had performance issues earlier in the year. The manager didn’t like me and gave me so much grief those six months after the bereavement I decided to come clean and reveal the true nature of the family death was a suicide. The company took no notice of this and wrote to the GP to seek further clarification. They didn’t believe about this disclosure about the suicide bereavement I had suffered. A week later, I broke down and was signed off.

 

I feel that the company deliberately tried to pull the wool of the judge’s eyes and justice has not been served. I am really upset and have lost faith in the justice system.

 

The judges arrived at the right decision with the evidence they were given, however I know for fact a lot of crucial info. has been omitted by the respondent to pervert the course of justice.

 

Please help as I am at my wits end. I have been on the case for a week now and haven't slept properly or eaten.

 

It is needless to say no amount of money will bring your loved ones back. Alas true justice which has been denied me, is my only consolation

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Hi,

 

just starting up this thread again.

 

In response to browncow I am sorry what you have to go through mate, I'd be interested to know what you are going through. I am about to submit an review with regards to lodging an appeal. Are you in the middle of the appeal? What is the general consensus? Seems really bad.

 

I want to request a review of my ET hearing, because I don't think the judges read the bundle as the evidence submitted showed without a shadow of a doubt that since the new line manager took over they had a plan to sack me despite the fact that they knew I had suffered a bereavement 6 months earlier and only taken 4 days off (compassionate leave)

 

The line manager picked up on a performance review that had been through at the beginning of the year, again 6 months prior. I need to be honest and state that I was turning up late and had had performance issues earlier in the year. The manager didn’t like me and gave me so much grief those six months after the bereavement I decided to come clean and reveal the true nature of the family death was a suicide. The company took no notice of this and wrote to the GP to seek further clarification. They didn’t believe about this disclosure about the suicide bereavement I had suffered. A week later, I broke down and was signed off.

 

I feel that the company deliberately tried to pull the wool of the judge’s eyes and justice has not been served. I am really upset and have lost faith in the justice system.

 

The judges arrived at the right decision with the evidence they were given, however I know for fact a lot of crucial info. has been omitted by the respondent to pervert the course of justice.

 

Please help as I am at my wits end. I have been on the case for a week now and haven't slept properly or eaten.

 

It is needless to say no amount of money will bring your loved ones back. Alas true justice which has been denied me, is my only consolation

 

I have not had the hearing yet. I spoke to the solicitor yesterday and in his view it is not hopeless. I have no complaints about him. He has been okay and very easy to contact throughout.

 

What has been hardest for me to grasp is that the victimisation elements, which were really important to me, despite stong evidence do not carry much weight it law. I do not really understand it but the fact that hey did it is not enough to win on victimisation you have to prove that they intended to do it which is hard.

 

I think that this is what might have happened to you. The Tribunal could see that you were treated badly but there was not enough there for them to meet the legal criteria.

 

Why was the evidence you needed not included? Did the Respondent fail to disclose it? Did you formally request it?

 

I really know next to nothing about the EAT. Have a look at these links

 

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1083962059&type=RESOURCES

 

http://etclaims.co.uk/tag/appeal/

 

http://www.out-law.com/page-9796

 

This quote is from the 3rd link

 

Mr Justice Underhill outlined the steps that Tribunals should go through when considering racial harassment cases.

 

The law now says that harassment occurs if it has the "purpose or effect" of violating a person's dignity or creating an intimidating atmosphere.

 

"That means that a respondent may be held liable on the basis that the effect of his conduct has been to produce the proscribed consequences even if that was not his purpose; and, conversely, that he may be liable if he acted for the purposes of producing the proscribed consequences but did not in fact do so," said the ruling.

 

Harassment occurs, then, if the perpetrator means it to, or if the offended person feels that it has occurred. Mr Justice Underhill pointed out, though, that any feeling of being harassed must be considered objectively to be reasonable, based on the offending behaviour.

 

"A respondent should not be held liable merely because his conduct has had the effect of producing a proscribed consequence: it should be reasonable that that consequence has occurred," he wrote.

 

"If, for example, the tribunal believes that the claimant was unreasonably prone to take offence, then, even if she did genuinely feel her dignity to have been violated, there will have been no harassment within the meaning of the section. Whether it was reasonable for a claimant to have felt her dignity to have been violated is quintessentially a matter for the factual assessment of the tribunal. It will be important for it to have regard to all the relevant circumstances, including the context of the conduct in question," he said.

 

Mr Justice Underhill said that a further requirement, that the conduct be shown to be on the grounds of race, will be familiar to Tribunals, and that they can use previous cases related to other laws to guide them.

 

"There is ample case-law on the nature of the inquiry required by the (interchangeable) statutory phrases 'on the grounds of' or 'by reason that'," he said.

 

The EAT said that in its assessment the original Tribunal had not misinterpreted the law, and that the award of damages stands.

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Hi,

 

just starting up this thread again.

 

In response to browncow I am sorry what you have to go through mate, I'd be interested to know what you are going through. I am about to submit an review with regards to lodging an appeal. Are you in the middle of the appeal? What is the general consensus? Seems really bad.

 

I want to request a review of my ET hearing, because I don't think the judges read the bundle as the evidence submitted showed without a shadow of a doubt that since the new line manager took over they had a plan to sack me despite the fact that they knew I had suffered a bereavement 6 months earlier and only taken 4 days off (compassionate leave)

 

The line manager picked up on a performance review that had been through at the beginning of the year, again 6 months prior. I need to be honest and state that I was turning up late and had had performance issues earlier in the year. The manager didn’t like me and gave me so much grief those six months after the bereavement I decided to come clean and reveal the true nature of the family death was a suicide. The company took no notice of this and wrote to the GP to seek further clarification. They didn’t believe about this disclosure about the suicide bereavement I had suffered. A week later, I broke down and was signed off.

 

I feel that the company deliberately tried to pull the wool of the judge’s eyes and justice has not been served. I am really upset and have lost faith in the justice system.

 

The judges arrived at the right decision with the evidence they were given, however I know for fact a lot of crucial info. has been omitted by the respondent to pervert the course of justice.

 

Please help as I am at my wits end. I have been on the case for a week now and haven't slept properly or eaten.

 

It is needless to say no amount of money will bring your loved ones back. Alas true justice which has been denied me, is my only consolation

 

If I may pop in a few words of mine...

 

The judges might have been convinced that there was no harassment or bullying in your case because your former employer said they invited you for a coffee to talk about it when you said you are resigning and you agreed (if I am correct) to talk about it.

 

However, if you agreed to attend that meeting but shortly after decided to continue to resign and didn't work at all following that (I hope), then it still could be viewed, I reckon, as that you completely lost your trust and confidence in your employer and decided to escape humiliating, offensive and degrading environment - that if there was, in you, ever any slight remaining of hope that they will change and understand your situation, it has been blown away following that meeting - nothing constructive was proposed, such as their deepest apologies to start with, and you had no other choice but to continue to resign.

This might be your key argument, in your application for a review as well: is there any evidence in the bundle or their own witness statements that they have apologised for anything during that meeting? Have they even expressed any words of sadness over your personal loss or proposed any constructive solution to their attitude, etc?

 

 

If you can point again to the evidence that they did commit various acts of insensitive conduct that could be viewed as potentially harassing and viscious, then you could say you based your decision to continue to resign on that final meeting (with no words of any apologies whatsoever, from them). Of course the question is: what would made you happy not to continue to resign following the scope of harassment they subjected you to and whether it was offered to you during that "coffee" meeting?

Don't be afraid to give an honest answer, you are anonymous here anyway.

Also, can you specify what exactly made you tell them you want to resign after what they wanted to talk it over?

Forget what I told you before. If you want to win, you may have to push it that way.

Please respond asap.

 

I am not saying that this is the case in your case - just a general point of law: in certain circumstances (and depending on those circumstances), employees can even work their notice until the end of it following the final straw that made them arrive at a decision: "I have got enough! I resign!"

 

Sorry to read about your loss of a loved one.

 

Regards

Edited by ms_smith
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Hi Browncow,

in relation to proving the victimization, The company has submitted, many internal emails, showing the senior members of staff are gossiping behind my back, viewing me with contempt, and not taking my requests for counseling seriously, on three occasions they had the chances to grant my counseling request despite the fact the request was from a GP. It took them four months to grant one day off a week, for counseling. My question is why did they drag it out for so long, even though they knew the facts of my bereavement??

 

Yes mate, my legal, representative made a request for records of this evidence, the respondents solicitor could not provide it. However the HR manager emailed me late at night asking for my mobile and then rang me the next day on my mobile. Conveniently rang FROM the personal MOBILE. Perhaps this was done in an unofficial manner so that the conversation could not be traced. Once this conversation took place, the HR manager disappears from existence within the bundle of evidence submitted by respondent.

I miss re-iterate, this was not brought up in the hearing because

a) I was so nervous

b) the junior barrister was absolutely nervous. Probably more nervous than I was

c) how is the judge and panel supposed to make a sound decision if they have been misguided by the respondents and had the wool pulled over their eyes?

Thanks for your 3rd link, this is really helpful! I particularly like this one, and I hear it loud and clear

The law now says that harassment occurs if it has the "purpose or effect" of violating a person's dignity or creating an intimidating atmosphere.

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Hi Browncow,

in relation to proving the victimization, The company has submitted, many internal emails, showing the senior members of staff are gossiping behind my back, viewing me with contempt, and not taking my requests for counseling seriously, on three occasions they had the chances to grant my counseling request despite the fact the request was from a GP. It took them four months to grant one day off a week, for counseling. My question is why did they drag it out for so long, even though they knew the facts of my bereavement??

 

Yes mate, my legal, representative made a request for records of this evidence, the respondents solicitor could not provide it. However the HR manager emailed me late at night asking for my mobile and then rang me the next day on my mobile. Conveniently rang FROM the personal MOBILE. Perhaps this was done in an unofficial manner so that the conversation could not be traced. Once this conversation took place, the HR manager disappears from existence within the bundle of evidence submitted by respondent.

I miss re-iterate, this was not brought up in the hearing because

a) I was so nervous

b) the junior barrister was absolutely nervous. Probably more nervous than I was

c) how is the judge and panel supposed to make a sound decision if they have been misguided by the respondents and had the wool pulled over their eyes?

Thanks for your 3rd link, this is really helpful! I particularly like this one, and I hear it loud and clear

The law now says that harassment occurs if it has the "purpose or effect" of violating a person's dignity or creating an intimidating atmosphere.

 

 

You really need advice on this review and appeal stuff as the time is short

 

Relationship between an application for review and appeal

An application for review does not change the time limit for making an appeal to the Employment Appeal Tribunal (EAT), ie you may appeal to the EAT while waiting for the result of the application - see the page in this guide on appealing against an employment tribunal judgment.

 

You must also lodge with the EAT a copy of the application for review and, if the application has been heard and determined, a copy of the tribunal's decision on the review

 

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1083961758&r.i=1083972304&r.l1=1073858787&r.l2=1074207487&r.l3=1083960053&r.s=m&r.t=RESOURCES&type=RESOURCES

 

Is inadequate representation grounds for appeal? Did that junior barrister belong to a firm or was he a sole practitioner?

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Hi Browncow thanks for this.

 

No, I don't think that "inadequate representation", is grounds probably not grounds for a review, however a misguided judgement, leading to:

a) new evidence has become available since the conclusion of the hearing

b) the interests of justice require such a review

are grounds for review.

 

The Barrister was part of Bedford row chambers, I have already lodged a complaint with the legal ombudsman.

 

In terms of making an appeal, in my case the Employment Tribunal has made a mistake in how it applied the law. This is grounds for a review. What sort of costs am I looking at for going to the EAT???

 

Kind Regards

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Dear browncow,

 

I see from your post on the unions 05/march/2012...you state that you have been in touch with the EHRC [equality people] Who would be the very top person there to get in touch with?

 

I believe my human rights have seriously been breached.

 

thanx

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Hi Browncow thanks for this.

 

No, I don't think that "inadequate representation", is grounds probably not grounds for a review, however a misguided judgement, leading to:

a) new evidence has become available since the conclusion of the hearing

b) the interests of justice require such a review

are grounds for review.

 

The Barrister was part of Bedford row chambers, I have already lodged a complaint with the legal ombudsman.

 

In terms of making an appeal, in my case the Employment Tribunal has made a mistake in how it applied the law. This is grounds for a review. What sort of costs am I looking at for going to the EAT???

 

Kind Regards

Free representation before the Employment Appeal Tribunal

The factors governing the availability of free representation operate differently at the level of the EAT than at first instance, and claimants who cannot afford to pay for representation will have a better chance of finding someone to act for free if they understand a certain amount about how this works.

 

There are two significant factors. The first is that appeals are normally much shorter than employment tribunal hearings. This is because, except in very unusual cases, no witnesses will be heard, and because the questions on which the EAT will hear an appeal are narrowly defined. Appeals only rarely last more than a day, and a large number will be completed in half a day or less. This also means that preparation for an EAT case is normally much lighter than for a first instance case: witnesses do not have to be interviewed, statements do not have to be prepared, documents do not have to be requested and disclosed, the hearing bundle will be much shorter and so on. This means that offering free representation on an appeal is less daunting in terms of work for the lawyer who makes the offer. (This is especially so for someone who is acting for free in the sense that they themselves are doing the work for no pay – this is a distinction that may be lost on the client, who does not pay in either event, but it can be useful to be aware of it. A lawyer working full time for a legal charity that provides free representation is normally paid a salary. A lay adviser at a Citizens’ Advice Bureau, a Free Representation Unit volunteer or a barrister acting for no fee is giving his time for nothing, so the longer the case takes the more time he loses from paid work.)

 

The other factor is double-edged. This is that appearances before the EAT, which is the next step up the legal hierarchy, tends to be regarded by representatives both as more interesting and more intimidating than appearing in the employment tribunals. Hearings are often presided over by High Court judges, and proceedings are superficially more formal. Some advisers who conduct cases routinely and skilfully in the employment tribunals simply lack the confidence to appear at the EAT and may be unwilling to take cases to appeal because they feel (although unqualified advisers are allowed to appear there and often do) that the EAT is the preserve of barristers and solicitors. The other side to this, however, is that many advocates will be more willing to take on appeals for free because they provide valuable – and comparatively rare – experience.

 

Both of these factors mean that a claimant who has failed to secure free representation at first instance from a local legal charity or other body should not assume for that reason that he will be refused help with an appeal. It is worth asking again at this stage, especially if the appeal raises a question that could be of general importance to other claimants in the future.

 

It is worth mentioning two specific sources of free representation at the EAT, both of which tend to find it easier to help at this stage than at first instance. One is the Free Representation Unit (FRU), and the other is the Bar Pro Bono Unit. Both organisations are London-based, and part of the reason they are more likely to be able to help with appeals is the simple geographical fact that the EAT for the whole of England and Wales has its hearings in London.

 

Claimants who live or work(ed) in greater London will often be able to be referred direct from their local Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB) or law centre.

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Dear browncow,

 

I see from your post on the unions 05/march/2012...you state that you have been in touch with the EHRC [equality people] Who would be the very top person there to get in touch with?

 

I believe my human rights have seriously been breached.

 

thanx

 

I do not know who is the head honcho at the EHRC as I just spoke to one of the telephone advisors.

 

I also spoke to the Disability Law Service. I made an appointment by phone and a lawyer called me back on a specific day at an agreed time. It is a free service and the link is here.

 

http://www.dls.org.uk/advice/index.html

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Hi Browncow,

 

many thanks for your posts this is very valuable info.

 

Please can elaborate: You took an Employer to the EAT and it cost £9K, I think you mentioned. Is this because you lost and had to pay the other sides costs. Did you get free representation?

 

My only concern with going to EAT is that respondent (who has millions) will try and drag the whole thing out in order to financially crippe and potentially bankrupt the claimant. Is this the case?

 

Kind regards

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Hi Browncow,

 

many thanks for your posts this is very valuable info.

 

Please can elaborate: You took an Employer to the EAT and it cost £9K, I think you mentioned. Is this because you lost and had to pay the other sides costs. Did you get free representation?

 

My only concern with going to EAT is that respondent (who has millions) will try and drag the whole thing out in order to financially crippe and potentially bankrupt the claimant. Is this the case?

 

Kind regards

 

I have not been to either the ET or the EAT Billybob. I go to the ET at the end of next week. The £9K is the cost of my ET in total, which I have to pay for. I have already paid half and will have to cough up the rest after the case.

 

I am not likely to win because victimisation (outside of the context of discrimination - disability, age, sex etc) is difficult to win. However, who knows?

 

There is no chance of costs being awarded against me at the ET my brief assures me of that.

 

I think that the Respondent was astonished that I forked out the cash to pay for this case because I am unlikely to get much more than that if I win.

 

Also, they know if you are paying for it yourself or if a union are paying because the solicitor you use makes that clear. They only thing they do not know is the terms of the deal made with your solicitor so they keep him occupied with letters and objections and requests for postponement in the hope that every hour is costing you big bucks. Cheque book justice to be sure.

Edited by Browncow
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