Am I liable to pay back money missing from takings??

[jemajem]

Hi all, I'm just new here tonight so sorry if I'm in the wrong place

Ok, here's the problem, on Sunday morning I opened up the shop were I work and had to do all the figures and bankings etc, when I counted Saturdays takings there was £20 short, I checked and checked all the cash but it was not there :/ My manager, myself and another member of staff (will call her"Jiill" were the only ones in on Saturday and our tills were correct (not showing any loss) so the money has to of gone missing from the back shop! This is not the 1st time this has happened, we have had issues with stock loss and money loss since "Jill" started, however our security system is very out dated and we cannot watch vids back also there are no cameras in the back shop! I phoned the Manageress at home on Sunday to tell her what had happened and she got angry and said we would have to pay the money back, I refused and stated that she had been working too so she was as guilty as she was making me feel. I also put across the point that I wouldn't mind stealing every week if I only had to put a percentage back, yes? Which she agreed! She phoned me today saying that the area Manager had said that all 3 of us have to put this money back and that she wasn't very happy. I have said that I am not paying this back, to which she replied "well they will take it out your wages!!" Can they do this? With no proof of who took it?

Like I said earlier this has happened before when "Jill", myself and another staff member were in working, £80 was missing and we paid it back between the 3 of us, I really really regret agreeing to this now but at the time I cant afford to keep paying back for someone else's greed!!! What can I do???

[Sidewinder]

Hi Jemajem. This is a tricky one, and I can understand your frustration, but in retail work, the employer is entitled to deduct wages to make good till shortages. The situation is complicated by the fact that you know that the tills were correct the previous day, and the fact that three of you were responsible for takings on the previous day, however from the employer's point of view, if the till was short (as it will be deemed as there is only your collective word for it that everything balanced) then they can take back the money unless it is paid voluntarily.

 

You say that you have concerns over the fact that this is not the first time, so I would strongly suggest that all of you raise a grievance to say that you are concerned and distressed that money has gone missing after you have balanced the tills, and that you are not happy that this should continue to be a problem for the sake of the CCTV not working. For your own security, I would also not cash up and account for takings on your own. Insist that the balances are checked and agreed with a colleague and that you each sign to say that this is the case.

 

In answer to your question though, I do not see that the employer is acting unlawfully, however I would make it clear that you are repaying under protest and demand that a grievance over the lack of security is dealt with.

 

I have moved the thread to the Employment forum.

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I asked this last time, because I'm not in retail and I don't quite see the justice in this. If the till is over, it must happen sometimes, do you get to keep the surplus?

 

I'm sure Sidewinder will shoot me down in flames.

 

My best, HB

[jemajem]

Thank you so much for getting back to me!

 

@honeybee, no we don't get to keep overs, only two weeks ago when I did the till we were up £15 and it got banked this is one of our arguments on having to pay shortages back!

 

@sidewinder, It is tricky because there are only 5 of us who work there and we do shifts say manager 9-5 then me 5-10 then next day another member 9-5 again, so 95% of the time we are working on our own! Even if we are doubled up at weekends we both have access to the till and safe :/ as was the case on Saturday night. Its not possible for there to be 2 of us in the shop at the same time the company will not give us the extra hours

 

I realise that its only £20 but its the principal of the whole thing, I know that I haven't taken it and I know that the manageress hasn't taken, its such an awful situation to be put in

[jemajem]

Hi, back again!!

Ermm how do I go about this grievance procedure? Never had to do anything like this before :/ Would all 3 of us do it? Together?

This whole things really got me chewed up

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

Does your employer have their grievance procedures in writing? You could start by reading that. There is also information on the ACAS website with guidelines to how disciplinary and grievance procedures should work.

 

HB

[LaughingGirl]

Do you have a staff handbook? It should explain how to raise a grievance according to their policy.

 

EDIT: Oops, HB beat me to it.

[millitant]

does the shortage have to show as a deduction on your wage slip, and what if a deduction takes you below the national minimum wage

 

a companies own t&c may say one thing but it does not overide statute?

 

You can't legally hold any cashier accountable for shortages unless you can prove theft.

 

If it is written into the contract of employment, then when you signed it, you agreed to the deductions

[LaughingGirl]

does the shortage have to show as a deduction on your wage slip, and what if a deduction takes you below the national minimum wage

 

a companies own t&c may say one thing but it does not overide statute?

 

You can't legally hold any cashier accountable for shortages unless you can prove theft.

 

If it is written into the contract of employment, then when you signed it, you agreed to the deductions

 

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that the company may not take you below the minimum wage threshold - they would have to recover any payments in installments.

 

Like I say, could be wrong!

[millitant]

you are correct

[jemajem]

Hello again.

 

Does your employer have their grievance procedures in writing? You could start by reading that. There is also information on the ACAS website with guidelines to how disciplinary and grievance procedures should work.

 

HB

 

I will have to look tonight, I am in at 5. Just wanted as much info as possible before I go in to see my manager.

 

I have to go now but will let you's all know what is said, thanx again

[LaughingGirl]

I've just realised that if someone is on minimum wage, it's legally impossible to recover payments from their wages, then.

[ajj]

What are the initials of your area manager? (just trying to work out if you are working for the same chain as me, it all sounds very familiar & I may be able to help)

[Gbarbm]

Ajj

CAG do not encourage posters to give out information such as that you are requesting.

This is because CAG is a public forum and it may identify the poster and compromise their position if that information gets back to the employer.

 

Kind regards

Gbarbm

[ajj]

Ok sorry. I didn't realise

[Gbarbm]

No problem ajj; I appreciate that you're trying to help, it's just that there have been occasions where the employer (or someone acting on their behalf) has got hold of the info and has used it against the employee.

 

Kind regards

Gbarbm

[numbers666]

Ok....

 

i) were the tills cashed up on sat and witnessed and signed ?

 

If so, and the balance was ok, then it is clearly theft. If this is not the procedure then your company has procedural issues that need pointing out to them. Certainly security issues if the cctv is in-effective.

 

ii) did you sign a contract and any particular terms ref deductions from wages...

 

direct dot gov

Retail work: extra protection from deductions

 

If you work in retail (such as a shop or restaurant) you have extra protection against deductions from your wages. If there is a shortfall in the till or stock shortage, your employer is not allowed to take more than 10 per cent of your gross wages for a pay period. If the 10 per cent isn't enough then your employer can continue to take money from your wages on subsequent paydays. However never more than 10 per cent at a time.

An example

 

There is a shortfall of £50 in the till. Your employer wants to deduct this from your earnings. You are paid £250 per week before any deductions for tax or National Insurance etc (£250 gross pay).

Your employer can take ten per cent of your gross earnings. They must only take £25 one week and then make another deduction from your next pay cheque for £25.

If you leave your job, your employer can take the full amount owed from your final pay.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Pay/DG_175878

 

 

The employer has to inform you in writing of any planned deductions.

However, the minimum wage does affect the deductions, BUT if the employer was to get rather ****ty about it they could use the courts to get the monies back. I doubt for the value above they would bother.

I would not be paying anything for till shortages unless i was sole responsible for the short till, or they had evidence otherwise. Also they should account for the overages in a seperate account....

 

 

N

[jemajem]

Hi all, back again )

Seems we are agreeing to have £6.66p taken from our wages each for the £20 that went 'missing' Have been given a form to fill in asking for a statement of what happened. Still not happy about it at all but don't see what else we can do! Apparently we are getting a new security system any ways at the end of the month and between us we have come up with a system of checking takings at the take over point, personally I am still not pleased with this as I don't know that the money in the till is correct at the take over, I can check the days takings and float but not the till. Any how thank you for all your help and replies in this matter, really appreciated )

[lbruk]

So they have no evidence that it was a single person, and it seems that they cannot track where the money goes from the time you put it in and it is cashed up, is that correct? Who does the cashing up? Have they had it deducted as well, what about the duty manager? Have they had it removed.

 

This doesn't sound right to me, too many things here cannot point to a particular person, so they are punishing everyone? That i'm fairly sure is not allowed......

[Sidewinder]

This doesn't sound right to me, too many things here cannot point to a particular person, so they are punishing everyone? That i'm fairly sure is not allowed......

 

Sadly I think they are probably just on the right side of the law. Retail employment allows for deductions to cover stock or till shortages (providing that the contract makes provision for it) and in the event that a till was used by more than one person the shortage is recovered equally from each person unless blame can be apportioned to just one person. There are consitions attached in terms of notifying the employee and the amounts that can be recovered, but the principle I'm afraid, is sound.

[lbruk]

I worked in retail for 16 years as a manager and never dealt with this!

 

When a cashier had a shortage I gave them a warning and that was it unless they had stolen the cash, then they were sacked and costs charged through the courts etc.

 

I never knew that the amount short could be charged back to the cashier! I still don't think it is particularly fair!

[Gbarbm]

The manager can do till readings to account for the money in the till; maybe you can insist on this being done prior to a different cashier signing on to the till thus will highlight any shortages and will help to pin point the culprit.

I've copied and pasted some information about this below from an accountancy website that deals with retail clients.

I agree that having the shortages taken from pay us unfair particularly if you haven't done anything wrong, but I suspect that it us included in your contract.

 

What are X & Z Readings?

 

The X Reading is a subtotal of where the cash register is for the day.* The Z Reading is the total reading for the day and brings the starting total for the next day back to Zero.

 

Any busy business will perform a number of X Readings everyday and particularly at times that employees don’t expect.

 

Some Danger Signs to Watch Out For

 

If there is substantially more money in the till in the till on a regular basis, this is because the money has been put into the till but not rung up.* With this usually done with a view to taking the money out at a later stage.* If there is less money in the till than what the X or Z Readings denote, then there has been money removed from the till and you need to question where it is.

[Sidewinder]

I worked in retail for 16 years as a manager and never dealt with this!

 

When a cashier had a shortage I gave them a warning and that was it unless they had stolen the cash, then they were sacked and costs charged through the courts etc.

 

I never knew that the amount short could be charged back to the cashier! I still don't think it is particularly fair!

 

Likewise - I spent a fair time in retail management and we never forced a cashier to repay a till shortage. Discuss, warn to be careful, improve training and monitor and it was never an issue. Certainly the till could be a few quid short (or over! on occasion, but it wasn't our policy to take it back. The fact that there is a special exclusion for retail work which allows for till shortages to be recovered from staff seems to have been used more in recent times than was once the case - usually in the restaurant trade.

[lbruk]

It would be worth asking if they give the till excess back to the relevant employees as well as take the money off of them when they are short, because i would see that as not a fair and reasonable policy if they do not.

[Bullitinagain]

When did it become legal to deduct losses from an employee’s wages? It certainly has not always been the case. When such an issue arose the “truck acts” were always sited.

A number of years ago there was a chain of petrol stations who were deducting all losses from employees, including shop lifting and drive aways. These people were in a position that each week they were deeper in debt and no wages, it was quite a scandal at the time (i think Ester Ransom covered it on “Thats Life”). It was also the case that if an employer put such a clause in a contract, that to could be over ridden by the unfair contracts act. Do building society and bank staff have to pay back after a robbery? There cash would be short?