Fairly urgent - tribunal advice needed

[CaptainMannering]

King I don't understand why they would introduce new documents now, that were not referred to in their statement.

 

It might be worth reading their statements carefully to see if they have deliberately tried to hold these documents back to stop you from seeing them before now. I don't see the point of introducing documents that are not referred too.

 

Can they not refer to these documents at all not even in cross examination if they are not mentioned in their statements?

[kingofrod]

a) Can the respondent add to their witness statements at the last minute (c. one week before hearing) in spite of my opposition to this happening?

no - well that's good news. Thanks for that. I shall bring this up with the Tribunal. I am absolutely astonished that they'd do this but must thank them for including, in the bundle, copies of all the emails between us on this subject, so I know I will have it infront of me to refer the Tribunal to. We explicitly agreed that no further changes would be made unless they were directly related to the specific disclosure and, as this never came through (which I will also raise), there should have been no changes.

 

Upon telling them that I wanted the changes reoved, they said no. Good heavens.

b) Can I refer to newly added documents to the bundle, despite them not being mentioned in my witness statement as they were added after the statements were finalised?

yes your bundle should support your statement - the thing is, the information I want to refer to only went in two days ago AFTER I'd sent my statement. I don't want to fall foul of the rules by changing my statement as that's what I'm complaining about them doing. So I suspect it'd be difficult for me to include reference in my statement, so should I wait and ask about it in my cross examination? (these emails are between myself and some clients and prove that I id NOT conduct a sales visit the employer claims I did.

c) Can I refer to emails between the respondent and myself, relating to my request for documentation and to our agreement that our statements would ONLY be updated to allow for addition of information directly related to these submissions and can I, as a result, oppose the use of the new statements?

if they are in the bundle yes - Superb. I'm pleased that they added them without my having to request them to do so.

 

d) When and how do I do this?

cross examination? - Will I be able to cross examine the respondent's solicitor, or just their witnesses? I don't think it's appropriate to talk to the witnesses about the new statements as they would probably be unaware of the rules etc related to the statements. So do I ask the solicitor about it and question why they felt the need to make these unauthorised changes. Course, I'll also ask the witness why these changes were only made at the last minute. My hope is, though, that the Tribunal won't admit the new version of the statement, but I have to prepare for both eventualities, I guess.

e) Do I need an opening and closing statement prepared in advance, or should atleast the closing statement only be prepared once I've heard the respondent's representations?

it's good to be prepared for both, a good outline for your closing statement then fill in the details as you go - thanks, good advice, how long would the opening/closing statements tend to be and are they more general than specific in their nature?

 

Kgray, no you can't claim your own fees, but that's not to say that you can't say that you have used solicitors and advisors up to now blah blah blah, it's about upsetting teas much as they try to upset you.

I like the thought of going for my own fees, lol, but I'd be happy with a win, some compensation, my employee discounts back or at the very least, not getting costs awarded against me.

 

I like to think they way they've conducted themselves will work in my favour.

[kingofrod]

King I don't understand why they would introduce new documents now, that were not referred to in their statement.

 

It might be worth reading their statements carefully to see if they have deliberately tried to hold these documents back to stop you from seeing them before now. I don't see the point of introducing documents that are not referred too.

 

Can they not refer to these documents at all not even in cross examination if they are not mentioned in their statements?

Good question, and one I'd love the answer to. They added some pages to the bundle and have changed their statements to refer to them. I also added two pages one the same day as they made their additions, but I didn't update my statement because we had agreed not to - more fool me!

 

So I want to refer to these pages. Guess I'll do so when I cross examine, which I think Ibruk alluded to in the above thread.

[kingofrod]

Guys, who am I going to be "fighting with" on the day? The associate who has been communicating with me throughout the process, or someone else? A barrister or something?

 

Cheers

[CaptainMannering]

Guys, who am I going to be "fighting with" on the day? The associate who has been communicating with me throughout the process, or someone else? A barrister or something?

 

Cheers

 

King

 

Depends on how much money they have to waste. My resp didn't turn up at CMD (company employed sol) instead they sent a local barrister from a firm. In short they can send who they want, the sol you have been dealing with may well have been collating info. They would have hired the barrister thi week to look over the case and represent them

[kingofrod]

That's very interesting. The guy I've been speaking to has said that he'd spoken to his barrister about something related to the case. So that goes to suggest it's possible that this fella might not be there at all and the barrister will be the one doing the bullsh*tting?! Interesting, thanks.

[CaptainMannering]

Yeah I guess so, I've had the same, dealt with sol but never seen him. But the barrister won't be able to answer specific questions you will have in relation to the business, decisions it made etc surely?

[lbruk]

The CMD is normally a legal matter, so the solicitor would be there rather than the barrister.

 

I find it disheartening that they have amended their statements with these new documents, but you have not been able to amend yours? that doesn't sound very fair to me, playing dirty i feel.

[kingofrod]

They haven't said that I can't amend mine specificall, but our agreement was that we WOULDN'T amend them unless the amendments were related to new information recieved as a result of my SDO. As no documentation was provided relating to my request, I presumed that no changes would be made to the statements.

 

I want to play by the rules in the hope that they are seen to be bending them and it goes against them.

 

As it happens, they added a number of pages about other things, including internal procedures etc., and amended their statements to discuss these new pages.

 

I don't find it disheartening, I find it a fu*king joke. They know they're not allowed to do it, and I'll fight them on the day.

 

I'm having to prepare two sets of questions, two sets of bundle references etc.

 

I am going to re-do bits of my own statement to refer to the RELATED information we got today, but it's too late to get it to them before the hearing, owing to the bank holiday. So I will prepare it and talk to the Tribunal next week and explain that they've submitted a raft of information at the very last minute, despite my request for such information having been in for over a month.

 

I'll request that my new statement be admitted as it is in compliance with our agreement, but will do all I can to make sure their new statement is not admitted, or that if it is, they get into some both for not playing by the rules.

[kingofrod]

Four days to go.....

[CaptainMannering]

Four days to go.....

 

Hi king, I thought it was tue?

[kingofrod]

Hi king, I thought it was tue?

Sorry. Did I say Tue? I meant Thur.

 

How's things? Any idea if I'm alowed a laptop into the hearing?

[lbruk]

well good luck, keep us updated throughout the tribunal. I'll keep my eye on the forum and if you need help i'll try!

 

I think you should just take em to the cleaners!

 

How many days is your hearing been allocated?

[lbruk]

yes you are allowed to take a laptop

[kingofrod]

Cheers guys. I'm headed down south so am in my hotel now. It'll give me a chance to concentrate on the bundle a bit more and work out any last minute questions I want to ask.....

 

My god I hope I win. Even if I only get £1.00, I want them to admit that they were wrong to sack me.

 

And if they thought I brought the company's name into disrepute before, just wait until this is all over! Haha!

 

Can I just confirm again, if I'm asked a question by the respondent, will it be addressed to me or to the panel?

 

And do I respond to "sir/madam" on the panel or to the respondent?

 

I know I'll get to chat over this briefly with the tribunal people, too.

[CaptainMannering]

All your answers are aimed at the panel and you address them as sir/madam. As long as your professional I guess you can call the respondent what you like

 

Be prepared for lots of last minute correspondence between now and Thursday morning anything can happen

[CaptainMannering]

Nothing new as yet king?

[lbruk]

Probably making sure he has his case right, hotel broadband can be expensive as well.

[CaptainMannering]

Probably making sure he has his case right, hotel broadband can be expensive as well.

 

Either that or they've settled and he's on a beach in Barbados

[kingofrod]

Hi guys,

 

Hope this message finds you all well.

 

I apologise for the lack of communication since my hearing. I didn't want to think about it, talk about it, remember it or have any feeling about it until such time as a decision had been reached, as the judgement was reserved. I'd been stressed for months because of it, and was enjoying the break from it. I didn't want to appear as though I'd taken your generous advice and done a runner, but I didn't want to be consumed by the hearing after it had finished.

 

Anyway, I shall shortly post a full review of my two days in 'court' so others know what to expect, but the long and short of it is that I lost my case and have had £3,175.00 in costs awarded against me. This mostly seems due to my updated statement of loss, provided hastily a couple of days before the hearing, being wrong. I used average figures as opposed to exact figures and ultimately everything matched up, but the judge seems to think I was trying to mislead her, which was absolutely false. The respondent noticed the discrepancies and clamped down on them, relentlessly pressuring the judge to find that I had been trying to mislead.

 

So can anyone tell me what happens next? How do I pay? The judge said that because I was in employment I have the means to pay - that's true - but certainly CERTAINLY not all in one go, and CERTAINLY not by sizeable installments.

 

What's the deal here? How do they get their money? I want to pay them - I let the judge decide and I respect her decision, even though I obviously disagree with it - but I worry about how they will get their money.

 

Thanks so much again.

 

KoF

Edited July 18, 2012 by kingofrod

[lbruk]

Well I am sorry to hear that you lost, how you pay it can be discussed with the respondent's representative and an agreement made. No doubt they will be in contact with you.

 

You lost on the schedule of loss not being 100% accurate? That seems fairly harsh in regards to the holding fee's against you.

[kingofrod]

Thanks Ibruk. To be honest, throughout the hearing I felt fairly good about how I handled myself and my interrogation at the hands of the respondent's bulldog of a lawyer. The judge seems to agree, actually. Things went very wrong when it came to remedy etc.

 

I initially didn't seek financial remedy. I wanted re-instatement and/or my employee discount returned. About a week before the hearing the respondent's people got back to me and said "please send updates schedule of loss (etc)". Basically, I felt a bit pressured into providing something and so used average/guesstimate figures on my statement of loss BUT ALSO INCLUDED a copy of my bank statement showing the payments into my bank, in salary, which showed the correct figures. So I don't understand how they can think I was trying to mislead them, when I always provided the bank statement showing the accurate figures.

 

Like, the employer I went to after leaving the company was paying me, say £2,000.00 a month. I put on my SoL that they were paying me £1,700.00 a month. But the respondent was paying me an average of £2,000.00 a month but I put down that they were paying me £1,700.00 so in effect, while the figures were wrong, they weren't showing a level of loss that didn't exist.

 

So the respondent's solicitors will make contact with me? Is it normal to pay in installments?

 

Am I free to write to the CEO/Chairman at the respondent now? I used to speak to them fairly regularly and would like to appeal to their better nature and ask them to overrule the decision to go after costs. Is this appropriate?

[kingofrod]

A little bump.... Also, is it possible to appeal against a costs award, but not the decision overall? I respect the decision, as mentioned above, even though I think it was wrong. But I think a costs award is wrong, becuase I didn't act unreasonably at any point in the hearing.

[becky2585]

Yes it's possible, but if costs were awarded because the judge said it was a misconceived claim or had no reasonable prospects, you'd have to prove that wasn't the case to overturn the costs award. Sadly it's not just about being unreasonable as such.

 

I'm sorry to see the result.

[kingofrod]

Thanks Becky. I appreciate your kind words, and your assistance throughout. I feel as though there's been a grave injustice, but then I would, wouldn't I!? I feel that, as a lay person, I was almost bullied by the respondent's representative and not given a chance to really respond to questioning or ask my own. The judge kept rushing me. I think the way the respondent's people behaved throughout was pretty deplorable, but maybe that's their job.

 

Becky, in your experience, do I just wait now and let them get in touch with me to arrange payment? Are most people open to monthly payments? I won't be able to pay in one-go.