Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[worried33]

Why are ATOS still approving recordings then and why is the secretary of state saying so?

 

Also where is this information that ATOS are not doing any more recordings?

[Simon7685]

NO, we can't. Because the reality is that, regardless of what Grayling says, ATOS are NOT going to provide the recording any more, and if people refuse to have their WCA unrecorded, they will then get sanctioned and even if/when they win at appeal, they're the ones who will have been left with no money for weeks or months. Meanwhile, ATOS won't meet their target, oh no the horror... oh hang on they don't give a flying fig about that, they are gettign away with whatever they want.

 

So on one hand we have a company that won't get penalised for beign delayed or inconvenienced on the other hand we have vulnerable people who may lose any income for long periods of time. Sorry but whilst it's all very well takign a stand for those who have the luxury to do so, for the majority of people, it is simpler, less risky and more likely to get results if they take the simple route. Furthermore, as I said earlier, it will inconvenience the DWP/ATOS a lot more if they're caught red-handed fibbing so I see no downside in covert recording, whereas I see a lot in demanding an official recording that they do not have to comply with.

 

Fact is, in law, there is nothing to say that we ARE entitled to this official recording, it's down to good will, good practice call it what you will.

In law, however, we are entitled to covert record.

 

AFAIC it's a slam-dunk.

 

Crazy Diamond I do not see where your problem is? We have differing views on whether a covert recording is acceptable either legally or morally. Why can you just not accept that it is up to each individual to make their own decision??? It is not down to me, you or anyone else to make other peoples decisions.

AFAIC it's a slam dunk!

 

Also actually it does matter if ATOS are inconvenienced and miss their targets. They are contracted to do 11000 WCA's every week. If they fail to do this, they do not fulfill their contractual obligations and there will be consequences.

 

Also it does matter what Chris Grayling and the Government say. If they decide that people are entitled to a recorded WCA, ATOS cannot just go ahead and refuse everybody their rights. It might take some getting through and some action being taken but their will be consequences for ATOS eventually if they do this. I am fully aware that people could well be sanctioned for not going for their WCA and as a result their benefit may be affected, I have never said otherwise. It is a very difficult decision for someone to make, I could very well find myself in this position, I don't know, if I do then I will have to make the decision. what I do know is there comes a time when people have had enough being trampled on and make a stand. History tells us that a lot of the time this brings about change. If people do nothing, nothing gets changed but the decision on whether to do anything is down to the individual and no one else.

AFAIAC thats another slam dunk!

 

Oh and while were at it. Would you like to explain to everyone, how you are "in the know" regarding people getting sanctioned for not attending a WCA when they have requested a recording? The DWP have not released a decision as to whether people will have a sanction imposed against them in these circumstances as yet. Perhaps you might like to wait for that decision to be made public before scaremongering people into thinking they will definately be sanctioned.

AFAIAC thats a slam dunk!

 

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and to make their own decision. Everybody is entitled to support their own views but that does not mean deciding that your viewpoint is the correct one and everybody else is wrong! You make a lot of definative suggestions in your posts and suggestions that you are correct, which to be fair is not entirely correct.

 

Again I will say that we obviously are not going to agree, we have differing views. I provide mine based on the information I know, my personal opinion and interpretation of where things stand. I do not profess to ram it down peoples throats and state I am 100% right so why do you?

[Simon7685]

Why are ATOS still approving recordings then and why is the secretary of state saying so?

 

Also where is this information that ATOS are not doing any more recordings?

 

Well said!!!

[Simon7685]

and AFAIC that's a slam dunk!

[Simon7685]

Parliamentary Q & A, yesterday;-

 

Timms (EastHam, Labour)

 

To ask the Secretaryof State for Work and Pensions if he will ensure that employment and support allowance claim forms make clear to claimants that they are able to request a recording of their work capability assessment.

 

Grayling (Minister of State (Employment), Work and Pensions; Epsom and Ewell, Conservative)

 

We currently have no plans to include this information in the ESA50 form.

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2012-07-16a.117419.h&s=%22recording%22+section%3Awrans+section%3Awms#g117419.q0

 

This is really shocking, they are still not going to tell people that they can ask for their WCA to be recorded. I think it is shamefull and I hope someone at Westminster picks up this and asks the question WHY?

[Crazy Diamond]

Crazy Diamond I do not see where your problem is? We have differing views on whether a covert recording is acceptable either legally or morally. Why can you just not accept that it is up to each individual to make their own decision??? It is not down to me, you or anyone else to make other peoples decisions.

I don't believe I have said otherwise? Indeed, I believe that it's me who first said that people should believe who they want, as opposed to you who persisted in telling people that a covert recording was not admissible in court until you got proved wrong on this.

 

 

Also actually it does matter if ATOS are inconvenienced and miss their targets. They are contracted to do 11000 WCA's every week. If they fail to do this, they do not fulfill their contractual obligations and there will be consequences.

There should be, yes. In fact, there should have been already, but it's not happening. If by now you haven't realised that ATOS and this government have vested interests in one another (as well as others, SERCO, G4S etc... the pigs with their nose in the trough are plentiful!) you need to follow things around a bit more.

 

Also it does matter what Chris Grayling and the Government say. If they decide that people are entitled to a recorded WCA, ATOS cannot just go ahead and refuse everybody their rights.

It's NOT a right. Unlike a police interview where it IS a right to have a dual recording, there is NOTHING in law that enshrines such. Until it is written in an Act of Parliament, what they say is as much wind, and has as much legal value as the Tory manifesto.

 

It might take some getting through and some action being taken but their will be consequences for ATOS eventually if they do this.

Yes you've said. Saying ot again doesn't make it any more likely to happen.

 

I am fully aware that people could well be sanctioned for not going for their WCA and as a result their benefit may be affected, I have never said otherwise.

Yet you argue that people should insist on their 'right' (which isn't one) at the risk of this precisely happening.

 

what I do know is there comes a time when people have had enough being trampled on and make a stand. History tells us that a lot of the time this brings about change. If people do nothing, nothing gets changed but the decision on whether to do anything is down to the individual and no one else.

I don't believe I said otherwise, in fact, I have been encouraging people to do something, unlike you who seem to be bent on discouraging anyone from deviating from the ATOS 'authorised' path.

 

Oh and while were at it. Would you like to explain to everyone, how you are "in the know" regarding people getting sanctioned for not attending a WCA when they have requested a recording?

I'm a member of Spartacus, Social Welfare Union and a few other more private forums I will therefore not name where ESA/DLA/WCA and others are being discussed, information compiled and so on. I spend a large part of my days monitoring what is happening to disabled people up and down the country through what THEY report, in their own words, not through what Grayling and his puppets decide to feed to the Daily Mail for general consumption.

 

 

The DWP have not released a decision as to whether people will have a sanction imposed against them in these circumstances as yet.

See above. Because they haven't officially released it (which I doubt they will, why should they when they can bullsh*t people in towing the party line?)

 

Perhaps you might like to wait for that decision to be made public before scaremongering people into thinking they will definately be sanctioned.

As above. You can sit there and wait for a non-official decision what is unlikely to happen, that's completely up to you, me I prefer active to passive.

 

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and to make their own decision. Everybody is entitled to support their own views but that does not mean deciding that your viewpoint is the correct one and everybody else is wrong! You make a lot of definative suggestions in your posts and suggestions that you are correct, which to be fair is not entirely correct.

Ok, so prove me incorrect? Unlike you, I WILL say so and apologise if you can.

 

Again I will say that we obviously are not going to agree, we have differing views. I provide mine based on the information I know, my personal opinion and interpretation of where things stand. I do not profess to ram it down peoples throats and state I am 100% right so why do you?

More to the point, why are you being so passive-aggressive when someone comes up with facts you do not approve of? I haven't said anywhere that what I advocate is the only way to go, but I WILL correct false assertions and guesswork unsupported by a legal frame. So far, you have failed to come up with a single *legal* case that supports your opinion.

 

CAG has always been at the forefront of challenging the 'accepted' policies, from bank charges to parking tickets and more and this is just another example of it.

 

Oh and there is no need to get petulant, I thought we were all adults here.

[Crazy Diamond]

Why are ATOS still approving recordings then and why is the secretary of state saying so?

 

Also where is this information that ATOS are not doing any more recordings?

 

Are they still approving recordings? Evidence, please?

Why is the Secretary of State saying so? What, apart from the fact he doesn't know his arse from his elbow you mean? Or apart from the fact that he will lie quite openly about just about anything from workfare to welfare without flinching? Apart from the fact that as long as he can keep the issues muddled up (and what a grand job he is doing of THAT so far!) people keep on arguing over it and holding on to the hope that the other side will be reasonable all of a sudden?

Information (I'm only going to give you 2 links, they are plenty more if you start looking): http://www.dpac.uk.net/2012/07/having-your-wca-recorded/ and http://jaynelinney.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/atos-response-to-my-complaint-about-recordings/

 

'The DWP have therefore requested that we inform customers when a recording cannot be made, and in these circumstances, that the WCA process should continue.'

 

For the life of me, I can not understand why some of you people are so intent in shooting me down in flames when I bring a simple and legal solution that most people can easily use. Wouldn't you be better off checking it out instead of wasting your energy trying to discredit my information?

 

I am not the enemy here, ATOS is, and it does lead me to wonder why people like you and Simon are so intent on stopping people from deviating from the ATOS-authorised path.

 

Be that as it may, I hope that a few people will realise that there is a different solution than just sitting on your backside waiting for ATOS to tell you what they want you to do or not do and that it is perfectly legal to go down that route.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Crazy Diamond

[**Margaret**]

Simon7685:

Thanks for #433.

Margaret.

[Willowone]

Margaret - I'm really pleased that you had a good result. It gives me hope to know that it is possible, so thank you for your post.

 

I've found out today that my assessment IS going to go ahead on Thursday, despite my request for a recording. There are a couple of last ditch attempts to change this but it's looking unlikely.

 

I'm sorry that I don't have better news to share. I'm doing quite well in terms of getting the word out about how I am being treated and the reality of the situation re: recording but it will be too late in my case.

 

Best of luck to anyone dealing with this. (I don't want to stir up the covert recording debate but I would just like to say that it's too late for me to buy anything to record with and I wouldn't be up to the risk of being discovered and having my assessment stopped. I could not cope with that. I am fighting this through every official channel that I can and I am getting responses. That does not mean that I don't understand the legality of a covert recording or think that others shouldn't do it. It's just not right for me.)

 

Everyone needs to keep sharing information - it all helps.

[wobbly]

134

N

This has been submitted for a written answer today 17/7/2012.It will be interesting to see the response

 

Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead): To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, if he will ensure that each Atos assessment centre has a recording device available so that medical assessments can be recorded at the request of a claimant or their representative.

[R] (117849)

[Willowone]

Fantastic info, Wobbly! Thank you. I look forward to seeing the response...

[**Margaret**]

Letter from Work and Pensions, dated 13 July 12:

 

The Department's line is and, so far as I know, remains unchanged since the end of last year despite some vague parliamentary written non-answers;

 

'.......... whilst Atos will do all that they can to accommodate requests for audio recording there may be times when the service cannot be offered ..........'

 

A part of the letter I didn't copy in #423;

 

'The dual CD machines required for audio recording are a specialist item - there is only one manufacturer and machines are built on demand. As a consequence there is a lead in time of four to 10 weeks. Additional machines have been ordered.'

(Didn't say how many, but 'machines' is plural. Maybe two?)

 

Suppose yesterday's written answer, 16 July 12, was clear. No plans to mention the option of a recorded interrogation on the unfit for purpose form, otherwise known as an ESA50. Probably no plans to mention the option of a recorded interrogation in the pretty pink booklet that comes with Atos appointments, even though they've had over a year to include it.

 

DWATO are less than serious about audio recording work capability interrogations?

Can't think where I got that idea from?

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

[**Margaret**]

nolegion:

 

#31, #32, #33, on the sister thread. So wish you'd been right.

I got all enthusiastic about Mr Harrington's first review. Wish I'd not bothered.

 

Sincerely, Margaret.

[Simon7685]

Crazy Diamond.........

 

As I have said we are not going to agree, I am not going to spend my time trying to score points in a game of "oneupmanship". It does not solve anything or get the system changed. As for being petulant and all adults here, I think there are things we could probably both point out that have been posted on here but to be entirely honest, all this is just pulling the thread further off track and I fail to see the benefit of that to anyone.

 

I suggest we agree to disagree and move on............

[**Margaret**]

Willowone:

 

 

Have you got anyone who can go with you to take notes? 'Tis better than nothing for those of us who don't feel confident about covert recording. Pages 136-137 of the latest work capability assessment handbook - on the Work n Pensions website. You'll probably have to wave a copy at the 'professional', we did at the last interrogation I chaperoned, but even Atos admit 'tis legal.

 

Very conscious that so far I've only won a battle, not the war.

 

Very best wishes, Margaret.

[worried33]

Carazy diamond why are those forums keeping things private, it doesnt really help many people doing that. How does one gain membership?

 

IF you have proof that the DWP are deliberatly keeping policies internal only and then basically lieing on public statements on things like FOI requests and secretary fo state statments as well as in the houses of parliament then I think you should do something about it because that means many laws are been broken.

[**Margaret**]

wobbly:

 

In our dreams maybe. But if we don't keep asking we'll not get.

 

Margaret.

[Crazy Diamond]

Carazy diamond why are those forums keeping things private, it doesnt really help many people doing that. How does one gain membership?

By invitation only and only of trusted people. It does help people as the information eventually gets filtered out. After that it's up to people what they do with the information and look how welcome that has been on here! So much energy and time wasted shooting the messenger instead of using it to fight the common enemy! Sorry, but a few of the people on those sites are extremely sick and vulnerable and they don't want to have to deal with the same kind of crap on their site, that's their choice and their right.

 

IF you have proof that the DWP are deliberatly keeping policies internal only and then basically lieing on public statements on things like FOI requests and secretary fo state statments as well as in the houses of parliament then I think you should do something about it because that means many laws are been broken.

Where did I say that? Please don't put libellous comments in my mouth.

 

Anyway, as far as 'doing something about it', I'm sorry to say we have reached a stage with this government where people are acting dishonestly and bare face lying and cheating and what not and absolutely NOTHING is being done to punish or even stop them: Leveson enquiry, expenses scandal, bankers' cosy relationships, NHS sell-outs, G4S fraud etc... The rot is too far set for anything to change at higher levels, which is why it is up to us to fight any which way we can.

 

Look, I'll give you a few facts, you draw your own conclusions:

 

- There are only 11 machines in the whole country (not all of them working) to deal with all the requests for recorded assessments.

 

- As Margaret correctly points out, they are still not letting people know about the possibility of getting the assessment recorded, even though they have had plenty of time to do so.

 

- People are now getting letters stating that even if they have requested a recording and the equipment is not available for any reason, the assessment must still proceed, and that if the claimant refuses to do so it will be treated as a refusal, and we all know what the outcomes will be then, yes?

 

It should be perfectly clear to all what they're up to, and that following their official channels will get us strictly nowhere except on a not-so-merry go round.

[worried33]

- People are now getting letters stating that even if they have requested a recording and the equipment is not available for any reason, the assessment must still proceed, and that if the claimant refuses to do so it will be treated as a refusal, and we all know what the outcomes will be then, yes?

 

not seen any letters saying it will be treated as refusal.

[Crazy Diamond]

not seen any letters saying it will be treated as refusal.

 

http://www.dpac.uk.net/2012/07/having-your-wca-recorded/#comments

 

If you request your assessment to be recorded, you will be refused. You will be told “don’t attend and ESA will stop”.

 

She then agreed to reschedule my WCA for a later time of day – now 1pm on July 12th. However, following the new instruction from DWP, it will not be recorded.

When I stated that that was NOT acceptable and insisted on a recorded assessment, Marie told me that I have no choice because the DWP have said so.

They can book me a non-recorded WCA, but if I refuse to attend they will simply return my file to the Job Centre Plus offices marked as “did not attend”. This is the instruction from DWP.

The alternative is to cancel my claim for ESA immediately.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=356839337717763&set=o.147788151918540&type=3&theater

 

(same chap, see how what he's told over the phone is not repeated in quite the same terms in writing? All implied, whereas very much told so over the phone)

 

PS: For whoever was questioning my assertions that they weren't going to do recordings anymore, same link above (DPAC), see comments and the number of people who have been told precisely that. Hope thios clarifies that.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Crazy Diamond

[worried33]

Since it seems to be only nottingham (and norwich according to b&w) and apparently all 11 are broken, whats ATOS's excuse for allowing requests in the rest of the country?

 

Looks like discrimination to me.

 

I dont see a letter their stating the DWP said it isnt good cause.

[Crazy Diamond]

I give up.

[worried33]

Thats the standard letter from ATOS, they not authority on DWP policy.

 

Also all these spy cameras seem to be car keys, I dont drive and my condition wouldnt let me drive either.

[**Margaret**]

Good cause for failure to attend an unrecorded interrogation:

 

May eventually, after the obligatory three to thirteen months wait, be decided by;

 

CIB/3117/08

 

Linked earlier in this thread by: nolegion.

'Tis also on the Tribunals Service decisions database.

Or, far simpler, can be Googled.

 

Margaret.

[**Margaret**]

DWATO:

 

Are so 'all in this together' we can't see the join.

 

There's no one answer to this unfair fracas.

 

Very best wishes, whatever you decide, Margaret.