Bailiff attendance +24hr notice - Advice appreciated

[stevep]

Apologies for not taking the time to read through all previous posts to find an answer which is undoubtedly here somewhere, but I have time constraint on this one, and am also trying to study for an exam tomorrow....

 

I am a student, retraining as a primary school teacher. 2 years ago my wife did a few months part-time work and ended up with a council tax bill for about £180. As the CT bill was presented AFTER she finished work and she couldn't afford to pay it, she chose to ignore the situation (not the best move - just being honest). Anyway, the deal is that she had a letter through the door from Rundell saying that they were coming to collect or cart her off to prison. Following on from this they came around last Monday while she was out, and tried to leave a letter - i caught him running off, so had a full and frank discussion, part of which was an explanation on my part that we were BOTH now students, had limited income, and whilst we were not able to pay the amount being asked for in full, I was willing to enter into an agreement to pay the full amount over 3 months. This was refused as "the amount due wasn't high enough to allow him to enter into a payment plan".

 

On dicussing this with my wife following her return home, she opened the letter to see a bill for £370(ish). The form was not correctly filled in and some random figures for attendance, removal etc etc were listed (none of which added up to the total at the bottom) and none of which included the initial liability amount. We then phoned the council who tried to insist that all communications/payments should be through the bailiff, i put them right and paid the FULL amount of the liabiity order to them by debit card. I also informed them that I would be complaining about the excessive charges etc etc

 

Today my wife phoned me in some distress because our friends had returned whilst she was putting the kids in the car to take them to school, and told her that unless she paid the fees (now £250+) that they would be immobilising the car and arranging for its collection. I got to speak to them and told them the debt was in her name, and that the car was owned by me, and if they wanted to prove it, they could phone DVLA. After reducing my wife to tears in the street, in front of the kids, they finally disappeared giving her 24hrs before they return!

 

So the questions are....

 

Do we have to pay the charges BEFORE resolving whether they are in fact legal?

 

What charges can be applied? It hurts me to say it, but it is her fault this got this far, and i accept that we may have to pay something, but £250+is rediculous, especially when this visit was only necessary due to their refusal to accept my offer of payment last time.

 

I understand that the council are responsible for collection, so my letter of complaint after last weeks visit was posted to them (earlier this week), can they put the case on hold until the question of charges has been resolved.

 

Thanks in anticipation of your help.

[hallowitch]

did the bailiff at any time leave you a notice of seizure of goods and inventory listing the car

Is the car on HP

can you confirm the bailiff is certificated to the company he is employed (what bailiff firm is )

 

can you list the charges the bailiff has charges including dates

 

outstanding liability order

visit fees

levy fee

van/attendance fee

[hallowitch]

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/current.student/councilTax.shtml

 

Living with non-students

 

From 1 April 2004 students have been exempt from joint and several liability for Council Tax when sharing a property with other non-students. This means that the non-students have to pay their percentage of the bill, and students pay nothing. Joint and several liability means that where more than one person is liable for the Council Tax, any one or all of them can be held responsible for the whole bill.

 

 

I will try and dig out the actual legislation for you

[i hate bailiffs]

I had my best friends turn up for council tax last year five times in all two times with transit van to remove my stuff despite never gaining peaceful entry!!! every time they left the paperwork on the front path as would not put it through the letter box,I do love my rhodesian ridgeback!!once they got board of not getting any money from me they handed it back to the council NO FEES added on Just pay council direct is best way.

[stevep]

Thanks for the advice so far, just got home so sharing some more detail

 

First letter received 3 weeks ago from Rundels Certificated Bailiffs - Take Formal Notice.... Hand delivered, no date, reference to liability order dated October 2011, I have tried to contact you blah blah blah. Signed Jxxxx Coxxx

 

Second Letter received 9.1.2012 from Rundle & Co Limited - I have called to seize your goods. if you don't contact me, I'll return without notice and seize goods whether you are present or not. Balance - £373.10. Certificated Bailiff: Mr P Mxxxxx. This was just handed to me. I was at home. I offered payment in 3 installments due to our limited finances (we are both students) - this was rejected.

 

Third document also received 9.1.2012 from Rundles Certificated Bailiffs - Notice of Seizure of Goods and Inventory. Inventory description of black opel zafira (with correct reg). Figures list - Liability Order £373.10, Levy Fee £27, Attendance £150, Total Outstanding £373.10 (not entirely sure of the maths here, but hey!). The Walking Possession section of the form has been left blank. Someone has signed and dated it. On the back of the form is the Schedule 3 - Regulations 14 (2) (b) and Schedule 5 - Regulations 45 (2)

 

I paid the £153.60 directly to the council on the 9th, having finally got to speak to someone who would accept the payment. I informed them I was disputing the charges.

 

Visit today, tried to take the car, wife argued to the point of tears whils the kids were in the car also in tears, and left a notice - Attendance Notice of the Clearance of Goods - total now due £219.50 (they can't add up or take away it would seem). No ID shown, but document signed by Cxxxx

 

For the time being I have contacted the Council, informed them of the disgraceful behaviour of putting wife and children in such a distressing situation, and they have put a "hold" on proceedings pending investigation.

[i hate bailiffs]

Bailiffs collecting Council Tax are not allowed to charge you for letters, but they can charge for 2 visits. They can't charge you for any more than two visits (unless you owe Council tax for more than one year, then they can charge you for two visits per year). If they take your stuff, they can also make a 'levy charge' for their time and effort. The amount depends on the size of your debt: the more you owe, the higher the charge.

They can also charge for making a Walking Possession Agreement and, if you have not kept to the agreement, they can charge you for hiring a van to take your belongings away. This must be in line with normal van hire rates. Bailiffs cannot bring a van to your home and try to charge you for it before they get a 'walking possession agreement' - although many dodgy bailiffs will try this.

They can also charge 'reasonable costs' for selling your stuff.

If they have taken your stuff away, but don't sell it (because you have since paid up) they can still charge you. If you have paid the debt and costs off in full (whether by a lump sum payment or by instalments) they cannot charge you - although this is also something dodgy firms will try.

Be suspicious of anything not mentioned here - in particular anything called an 'enforcement' fee.

[stevep]

I have already posted a general enquiry regarding the activities of Rundel & Co and their random application of charges. I was ready to accept that there would be some "genuine" fee for us not making an appropriate payment at the right time (probably much less than they were asking for), but after the unscrupulous actions of a "Certified Bailiff" today, I've decide decided to go through the paperwork with a fine-toothed comb

 

I noticed this - The person who kicked the whole process off with his "Formal Notice" is a certified bailliff on the register at http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov.uk/CertificatedBailiffs/ but for an employer other than Rundle & Co Ltd. I searched against Rundle & Co and they have plenty there, but not this chap. I do know (to my shame - lol) that the said individual has claimed to represent Rundle and Co for a number of years!! Surely he should be informing the courts of his "new" employer?

 

Can bailiff companies outsource their official "bailiff" type activities to other companies?

 

I also noticed that the Notice of Seizure is signed by another "Certified Bailiff" who doesn't actually appear on the register at all? Does that make the Seizure notice invalid?

[nohope]

First of phone the court he was certified at and ask who his current employer is. His certificate will still be in the name of who ever he was with when he get it but they should have paperwork reguesting change of employer and the date he or she asked for it to be changed.

[seanamarts]

Merged threads

 

Please can we keep this matter to one thread.

Keeping matters to one thread means others can understand the situation and can see the whole story.

 

Thank you

 

seanamarts

 

Site Team

[hallowitch]

I have already posted a general enquiry regarding the activities of Rundel & Co and their random application of charges. I was ready to accept that there would be some "genuine" fee for us not making an appropriate payment at the right time (probably much less than they were asking for), but after the unscrupulous actions of a "Certified Bailiff" today, I've decide decided to go through the paperwork with a fine-toothed comb

 

I noticed this - The person who kicked the whole process off with his "Formal Notice" is a certified bailliff on the register at http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov.uk/CertificatedBailiffs/ but for an employer other than Rundle & Co Ltd. I searched against Rundle & Co and they have plenty there, but not this chap. I do know (to my shame - lol) that the said individual has claimed to represent Rundle and Co for a number of years!! Surely he should be informing the courts of his "new" employer?

 

Can bailiff companies outsource their official "bailiff" type activities to other companies?

 

I also noticed that the Notice of Seizure is signed by another "Certified Bailiff" who doesn't actually appear on the register at all? Does that make the Seizure notice invalid?

A bailiff cant work for 2 Firms (well perhaps he could but he would have to certificated to both and i don't think/ know if thats possible ) unless he is self employed and the local authority allows the bailiff firm to outsource there work

 

Its about the bond they lodge with the court

 

A bailiff has to pay a bond to his certificating court £10k this is usually done by way of an insurance policy by there employer so if a bailiff's bond is lodged in court firm ABC and he does work for firm CED and anything happens during his enforcement with CED his bond will not cover any claim against him

Read the distress for rent rules 1988

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2050/contents/made

 

the bailiffs register is not always 100% accurate you need to phone Ministry of Justice Public Register of bailiffs on 020 3334 6355

[hallowitch]

The Distress for Rent (Amendment) Rules 1999

12. After rule 7 there shall be inserted:

“Change of bailiff’s name, address, etc

7A.—(1) In this rule “relevant details” means a bailiff’s name, address or other written

information appearing on the certificate.

(2) If there is any change in the relevant details, the bailiff shall without delay give

written notice of the change to the issuing county court and produce his certificate (“the

old certificate”) to the court officer of the issuing county court.

(3) When a bailiff gives notice and produces the old certificate in accordance with

paragraph (2) above, the Judge of the issuing county court shall issue to the bailiff a

replacement certificate reflecting the change in the relevant details but in all other respects

(including, without limitation, the date of expiry of the certificate) the same as the old

certificate.

(4) When a replacement certificate is issued in accordance with paragraph (3) above,

the court officer shall retain and cancel the old certificate.

(5) No fee shall be payable for the issue of a replacement certificate in accordance with

[stevep]

Apologies for the second thread, the thought was that the first post was regarding the charges, whilst the second was regarding the authority of a certified bailiff to work on behalf of an employer other than his own.

[hallowitch]

make a freedom of information request to your council and ask

If the have a service level agreement and/code of conduct with the bailiff firm ask them for a copy of it if they have these agreement

 

 

letter through the door from Rundell saying that they were coming to collect or cart her off to prison

 

A bailiff cant send you to prison the local authority can for wilful refusal to pay

 

Professionalism and conduct of the enforcement agent

powers, qualifications, capacities, experience or abilities, including, but not restricted to;



Falsely implying or stating that action can or will, be taken when legally it cannot be taken



Falsely implying or stating that a particular course of action will ensue before it is possible to know whether such action would be permissible

The first bailiff

First letter received 3 weeks ago from Rundels Certificated bailiffs - Take Formal Notice.... Hand delivered, no date, reference to liability order dated October 2011, I have tried to contact you blah blah blah. Signed Jxxxx Coxxx

 

this notice of attendance should have had outstanding balance and fees charged for the visit

Information and confidentiality

Enforcement agents will on each and every occasion when a visit is made to a debtor's property which incurs a fee for the debtor, leave a notice detailing the fees charged to date, including the one for that visit, and the fees which will be incurred if further action becomes necessary. If a written request is made an itemised account of fees will be provided

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/enforcement-officers/national-standards-enforcement-agents.pdf

The nation standerds for enforcment agents are not legislation however all local authoritys and bailiff firms have signed up to abide by them

 

 

Another thing you have to remember is that the Rundle (which means the authority ) may have broken the data protection act by passing your information to to a 3rd party who has no legal right to hold this info

[seanamarts]

Apologies for the second thread, the thought was that the first post was regarding the charges, whilst the second was regarding the authority of a certified bailiff to work on behalf of an employer other than his own.

No apologies needed

 

Just helps to keep things together

[stevep]

SO... we got a letter back from the council telling us how naughty we had been - yadda yadda yadda - and that they needed to use the bailiff, but moving on, and (surprise surprise) condoned the actions of the bailiff, who were just doing their job

 

They haven't provided all of the info requested, so i have replied requesting the completion, but in the mean time, I have noticed one or two inconsistencies which I would appreciate your advice on regarding the Levy.

 

A bailiff, not showing his ID, arrived at the house, I asked him how much, he said £373.10+ (which I couldn't pay). The breakdown provided shows...

 

8/12/11 Debt 153.60

20/12/11 Visit 1 - £24.50 (phantom visit)

3/1/12 Visit 2 - £18 (actual visit)

9/1/12 Levy Fee £27.00

9/1/12 Attendance Fee £150

Total £373.10

 

which is at odds with the Notice of Seizure left which claimed £373.10 as the liability order, £27 levy fee, and £150 Attendance = £373.10

 

I am comfortable with needing to pay Visit1 & 2 (i know that they have been here twice), but if the levy and attendance have not been applied legally then I want to dispute them (I genuinely can't afford them).

 

Does anyone know what the legal requirements are for applying a levy on a vehicle (leaving aside whether I need it for work/being on hp etc) - i'm more interested in the mechanics.

 

Does the form have to be completed correctly? If I had paid the outstanding £196.10 at the time of his visit, would I have incurred a levy and attendance fee? Can both levy and attendance fee be applied on the same visit? What does a "levy" mean - should he have taken the vehicle, or atleast secured it?

 

Thanks for your advice

[hallowitch]

9/1/12 Levy Fee £27.00

9/1/12 Attendance Fee £150

 

cant charge an attendance fee and a levy fee on the same day

 

did the bailiff leave you a notice of seizure of goods and inventory listing the car

 

you say the bailiff is not certificated to r&co can you tell us who he is certificated to

[stevep]

The Notice of Seizure listed the vehicle as a "Black opel zafira reg xxxxxxxx" - it's actually blue, but the reg is correct.

 

I am still getting to th bottom of the certification issue. To the best of my knowledge he is certificated to Revenue Services Ltd, although on checking with the phone register it appears that his certificate expired last November. I called the court today but the person I needed to speak to wasn't available until Monday - from what she could tell, the agent who answered the phone could NOT confirm that the certificate had actually been renewed (but until i can get it confirmed, i'll run with the assumption that he did).

 

What is the legislation that says that levy and attendance can't be applied on the same day?

[hallowitch]

THE COUNCIL TAX A dministration and enfoecment (AMENDMENT) (ENGLAND) REGULATIONS 2006

SCHEDULE 5 CHARGES CONNECTED WITH DISTRESS

 

C For one attendance with a vehicle with a view to the removal of goods Reasonable costs and fees incurred.

(where, following the levy, goods are not removed):

 

http://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/docs/Enforcement_Agent_Charges.pdf

 

 

 

[stevep]

Genius! thank you.

 

Any ideas what i need to do to find out if Revenue Services Ltd are allowed to act on behalf of Rundel & Co / South Glos Council? Freedom of Information request?

[hallowitch]

Genius! thank you.

 

Any ideas what i need to do to find out if Revenue Services Ltd are allowed to act on behalf of Rundel & Co / South Glos Council? Freedom of Information request?

 

how did i know you were going to ask me that sending you a pm

[stevep]

Thank you for the PM, and for your other prompt responses today. Really is appreciated

[stevep]

Just an update - We received a letter from South Glos detailing charges and visits, and these have now been disputed.

 

On an older account we had been paying for some time, i received a "breach of agreement" letter. Bailiff all too happy to re-establish on the same terms - which i thought was odd. I then checked my account balance the day later to find it had gone from £800 to £950!!! I queried this with the council too. Got a letter today detailing LO+charges of just £500. Looks like the council have removed all the questionable charges to avoid further questions!!

[stevep]

I'm not sure which message will get to you quicker, so you may have read this before...

 

I got a reply to my FOI request from SGC

 

Thank you for your recent request made under the Freedom of Information Act. I have listed your questions below and provided answers where possible.

 

1. Does South Gloucestershire Council have a Service Level Agreement with Rundle & Co Ltd? There is not a separate Service Level Agreement however there are service standards contained within the terms of the contract.

 

2. Does South Gloucestershire Council have a Contract of Employment with Rundle & Co Ltd? Yes, however the details of this contract are confidential.

 

3. Does any contract or service level agreement between South Gloucestershire Council and Rundle & Co Ltd allow Rundle & Co Ltd to subcontract any work to other bailiff companies. The contract allows the bailiff company to sub contract work where the debtor does not reside in the South Gloucestershire area. Rundle and Co Ltd’s main offices are in Leicestershire however they operate a base in Bristol which is solely for South Gloucestershire cases.

[stevep]

In addition to the FOI reply I got, my wife received another letter detailing

 

1) The council does not accept that the bailiffs should have informed them of our current circumstances because we had sufficient opportunity to inform the council of these before the bailiffs got involved

2) Confirming the name of the bailiff who attended on the occassion my wife was challenged whilst the children were in the car and they threatened to remove it

3) The council believes that a Levy and Attendance Fee CAN be charged for the same visit because there was a vehicle, it did attend, there was a view to remove goods, there was a levy, and the good were not removed.

4) The attending bailiff (Mr C) disputes that the children were already in the car when my wife was challenged, suggesting that she put them in there whilst he was there

 

so, putting the above points, and the FOI response together I sent South Glos a new letter which appears to have stirred a bit of a hornets nest and has been sent internally to the Chief Execs office to investigate...

 

In my letter I explained that..

 

1) Regardless of my previous actions, the bailiffs code of conduct clearly states that they must pass on information regarding vulnerability, and if they didn't agree then i wanted them to confirm this so that i could take it up with the ombudsman

 

2) Challenging the bailiffs information regarding attendance. The description of the attendee given by my son was of a tall person with black skin and a beard - certainly not Mr C

 

3) I disagree that Levy and Attendance can be charged for the same visit. Again asking them to confirm their understanding so that I can take it to the ombudsman for his word on the matter

 

4) My wife would have not been able to put the children in the car during the confrontation because the bailiff was stood in the doorway of our house with my wife inside. I also added that the testimony given by the bailiff was also dubious on the grounds that it wasn't even Mr C that attended.

 

As a final shot, I went on to explain that Mr C and Mr M + whoever the mystery man was on the 19th Jan, were in fact employees of Revenue Services Ltd, and whilst they may run an office in Bristol for Rundle & Co, their certification at the court is for Revenue Services Ltd not Rundle, so the court has no bond for them acting in this capacity. As Rundle & Co are not allowed to outsource unless the debtor is currently living outside South Glos, I maintain that they are not actually legally able to act in the capacity of bailiff for South Glos and therefore all fees are not enforceable at best, and potentially fraudulent!

 

will wait and see what they come up with next!

[ploddertom]

You have certainly got the bit between the teeth, don't let it go. Will certainly watch with interest.

 

PT