Cap1 & CCA return

[MoonHawk]

Thanks for the clarification and the update tamadus.

 

I have to agree with you that a judge is not going to care much about the statute of limitations, as the way I read it as a layman, this falls under criminal law and not common law. So it is theft and not just a dispute about a contract. But I'll follow the advice of the leagal eagles

 

Regarding the Catalogue companies, I am on the verge of starting claims against Littlewoods, Empire, Choice, Empire, Fashion World and Simply Be, regarding unfair penalty charges. I would be quite happy to try the route of S77;S78;S85, but would need guidance as I am only just getting to grips with taking companies to task with Lloyds

 

If you have time and would like to test the case gainst any of the above, PM me with the details I will need to include in a letter and I'll get them started. Otherwise I'll wait until you have completed your test of this. Please see this as an offer as I am more than happy to wait if it is going to take up too much of your time. We all need to see to our families and do our daily work

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

[paulwlton]

I've just read this thread from start to finish and checked out the relevent sections in the CC Act, i'm not going to get too exited just yet, but i think the people who have been stealing from the financialy vunerable better get ready.

[Mike220359]

Good point Tam, I'm not going to pour water over anything you have said. I'll keep watching with interest.

 

Mike

[tamadus]

Thanks for this info. I have been supplied with the agreement for ym credit card, which was signed by me on one date and signed beneath by the bank on the day before!!!!

 

Is that leagal? Wouldn't they need to sign it on the same day/at the same time?

 

Its actually very rare that contracts are signed on the same date so yes it's perfectly legal.

 

look at section 85 though Un1boy as its possible that if the card has been replaced since the account began but they didnt suppyly a copy of the agreement along wiht the replacement then they may still be in default

[tamadus]

Thanks for the clarification and the update tamadus.

 

I have to agree with you that a judge is not going to care much about the statute of limitations, as the way I read it as a layman, this falls under criminal law and not common law. So it is theft and not just a dispute about a contract. But I'll follow the advice of the leagal eagles

 

Regarding the Catalogue companies, I am on the verge of starting claims against Littlewoods, Empire, Choice, Empire, Fashion World and Simply Be, regarding unfair penalty charges. I would be quite happy to try the route of S77;S78;S85, but would need guidance as I am only just getting to grips with taking companies to task with Lloyds

 

If you have time and would like to test the case gainst any of the above, PM me with the details I will need to include in a letter and I'll get them started. Otherwise I'll wait until you have completed your test of this. Please see this as an offer as I am more than happy to wait if it is going to take up too much of your time. We all need to see to our families and do our daily work

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

 

Moonhawk, forget section 85 where a catalogue company is concerned. it only applies to the supply and use of a credit token (card or similar) However a section 77/78 (1) request may be worthwhile. Section 77 is for a fixed credit agreement and 78 is for running credit (as with a credit card)

 

If you make a section 77(1) 78(1) request they have 12 working days to comply and they then move into default status, they then have a further 30 calender days after which they commit an offence and the debt becomes unenforceable. They then have to go to court and ask a judge to enforce the debt, which he is unlikely to do unless they have the correct paperwork. PM me and I can go over the fine details with you:)

 

Both Terminator and myself are in constant touch with a couple of solicitors who are saying the same things independantly of each other so I am certain we have the facts right

[tamadus]

Hi tamadus, I am at a similar stage to you with 2 DCAs who have defaulted. I have sent a similar letter to the above to both of them requesting removal of default and notification that the account is settled. I have given them 14 days to comply. I had a reply from one of the DCAs apologising for the delay and they will send out the agreement shortly. I have written back stating they were unable to send it out in the timelimits as detailed in the cca section 78(1) and will still be proceding with court action at the end of my 14 days regardless. I am wondering if you or any other readers have filled out a particulars of claim for court summond that I could utilise as a template for my own? Also do you agree the best action is to ask for a small amount (£100?) in compensation and removal of default so the action is put through small claims court? Or am I best to go thefull shilling and Data Protection Act S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) the DCA and put in a small claim for the monie sI have alreday paid to the DCA? Surely they are more likely to defend such an action?

 

Gargoil, sorry missed this post yesterday. Are they in default or have they gone past the 30 days so they are now commiting an offence ?

 

Sorry I haven't got to the stage of frustration of issuing a court claim yet but I think somebody else has over DPA and if I recal correctly they entered a nominal amount of damages.

 

My letter above details the way I am going at the moment. Failure by Barclaycard and Lloyds TSB will result in me taking further action, firstly the payments will stop lol that should get some sort of response from them

[tamadus]

Good point Tam, I'm not going to pour water over anything you have said. I'll keep watching with interest.

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike and I still want details (privately) of the 3 your chasing LOL

[poltmcm]

hi

i noticed this under the CCA ss.62 and 63. probably been covered but if the creditor has not signed the agreement, when the debtor does, as with normal credit card applications.....then the creditor must within 7 days send a copy of the executed agreement, or before or at the same time as the credit token is given to the debtor;) i know i never got one from either cap one or barclaycard......can some one advise please:D

[tamadus]

hi

i noticed this under the CCA ss.62 and 63. probably been covered but if the creditor has not signed the agreement, when the debtor does, as with normal credit card applications.....then the creditor must within 7 days send a copy of the executed agreement, or before or at the same time as the credit token is given to the debtor;) i know i never got one from either cap one or barclaycard......can some one advise please:D

 

Your quite correct, they should have sent you a copy of the executed agreement, idealy before they send the credit card so you have a cooling off period as prescribed in the CCA.

 

I think I would send a section 78(1) request asking for a copy of the executed agreement, and carefully check the dates on it ( if they actually send it). I didnt remember having one from Cap 1 but they produced it very quickly. Barclaycard tried sending me a copy of the application form lol and have been very silent ever since. Bet the letter they get tomorrow wakes them up.

[Guest bong]

Hi guys, I just found this thread and I have very quickly glanced through it 'cos it's late (will go over it in more depth tomorrow) but can anyone tell me if the credit-tokens we're talking about could include debit cards or cheques?

[tamadus]

Hi guys, I just found this thread and I have very quickly glanced through it 'cos it's late (will go over it in more depth tomorrow) but can anyone tell me if the credit-tokens we're talking about could include debit cards or cheques?

 

A credit token will include a credit card and a credit card cheque as that draws against a line of credit provided by the credit card. A normal bank chaeque and debit card are not credit tokens as they draw against an account balance and no credit is involved.

[tamadus]

SE16090 - Vouchers and credit-tokens: meaning of credit- token

 

Section 142(4) and (5) ICTA 1988

 

A “credit-token” is something which merely has to be produced in order to obtain goods and services without immediate payment. It does not have to be capable of being exchanged for goods or services.

 

A credit-token is “any card token document or other thing”, except a non-cash or cash voucher, which is given to a person by someone who undertakes:

• to supply money, goods or services on credit on its production, for example, a credit card supplied by a retailer or
  
• to pay a third party for the supply of money, goods or services on its production to that third party, for example, a credit card like a Mastercard or Visa card supplied by a credit card company.

A charge to tax arises where such a credit-token is provided for an employee or a relation ( SE16080) by reason of the employment. For the amount chargeable as an emolument see SE16140.

 

The use of a “credit-token” to operate a machine, for example, a cash dispenser, is deemed to constitute its production.

 

The charge arising from the use of credit-tokens eliminates any argument over whether the payment by an employer of credit card bills run up by an employee is a discharge of the employee's pecuniary liability ( SE00580). There is thus a uniform charge on all employees in these circumstances however the credit card facilities are provided.

 

reposted from pugsleys post for clarity

[Guest bong]

thanks - I was just wondering about where it doesn't draw against an account balance, where for example you have an overdraft situation.

[tamadus]

thanks - I was just wondering about where it doesn't draw against an account balance, where for example you have an overdraft situation.

 

I think an overdraft situation comes under the auspices of a fixed credit arrangement. A standard cheque/debit card although they are tokens, promise to make payment from an account (which in theory should have a positive balance) as opposed to drawing on a line of credit.

[poltmcm]

Your quite correct, they should have sent you a copy of the executed agreement, idealy before they send the credit card so you have a cooling off period as prescribed in the CCA.

 

I think I would send a section 78(1) request asking for a copy of the executed agreement, and carefully check the dates on it ( if they actually send it). I didnt remember having one from Cap 1 but they produced it very quickly. Barclaycard tried sending me a copy of the application form lol and have been very silent ever since. Bet the letter they get tomorrow wakes them up.

 

thank tamadus

i had already sent for cap one agreement and they have sent it but there is no date on it from them i have dated it, but they never. just scribbled a name......oh well don't want to deviate you from the original purpose of this thread. let me know how you get on with barclaycard:D

[Mike220359]

When they're finished when they're finished, although I've just had a 'p**s off' letter from the company sceretary at the RBS no less.

 

Watch this space

 

Mike

[Guest bong]

I think an overdraft situation comes under the auspices of a fixed credit arrangement. A standard cheque/debit card although they are tokens, promise to make payment from an account (which in theory should have a positive balance) as opposed to drawing on a line of credit.

 

Thanks tamadus. I don't know what a fixed credit arrangement is, but you've said should here, is that your opinion or based on fact?

 

I just found this information on a website Credit Agreements :

 

 

Credit Agreements

 

 

If you have taken out a cash loan or some other financial arrangement then you will probably have entered into a credit agreement.

This is an agreement that allows you to pay for something at a later date rather than now. Credit agreements are covered by a law which means that if you break the agreement you can sue or be sued.

The law is set out in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and only covers agreements for credit up to £25,000, but not more than this.

If you have a credit card, charge card, cheque, coupon, voucher, etc., these are all types of credit agreements.

If you buy goods which you take away with you, but pay the price in instalments this will also be a form of credit agreement.

If you pay for the goods in instalments, but are not allowed to take the goods until the final payment then this is also a form of credit agreement.

Hire Purchase agreements are also credit agreements. This is where you pay by instalments to use the goods, but have an option to buy the goods if you want to after all the instalments have been paid. If you have taken a loan from a friend or relative however, this is not a credit agreement protected under the Act.

 

 

 

What do you think?

[un1boy]

Its actually very rare that contracts are signed on the same date so yes it's perfectly legal.

 

look at section 85 though Un1boy as its possible that if the card has been replaced since the account began but they didnt suppyly a copy of the agreement along wiht the replacement then they may still be in default

 

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

I am aware if the sec 85 though - are we waiting for you to test the case, or should we start writing to them about this?

[tamadus]

Thanks tamadus. I don't know what a fixed credit arrangement is, but you've said should here, is that your opinion or based on fact?

 

I just found this information on a website Credit Agreements :

 

 

Credit Agreements

 

 

If you have taken out a cash loan or some other financial arrangement then you will probably have entered into a credit agreement.

This is an agreement that allows you to pay for something at a later date rather than now. Credit agreements are covered by a law which means that if you break the agreement you can sue or be sued.

The law is set out in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and only covers agreements for credit up to £25,000, but not more than this.

If you have a credit card, charge card, cheque, coupon, voucher, etc., these are all types of credit agreements.

If you buy goods which you take away with you, but pay the price in instalments this will also be a form of credit agreement.

If you pay for the goods in instalments, but are not allowed to take the goods until the final payment then this is also a form of credit agreement.

Hire Purchase agreements are also credit agreements. This is where you pay by instalments to use the goods, but have an option to buy the goods if you want to after all the instalments have been paid. If you have taken a loan from a friend or relative however, this is not a credit agreement protected under the Act.

 

 

 

What do you think?

 

A fixed credit agreement is exactly what it says, an agreement to borrow a fixed amount over a fixed term and repay a set amount of interest. Running credit is of the credit card variety where the company aloow your day to day credit level to vary under a running agreement.

 

The word should was refering to the fact that a bank current account should have a positive balance most of the time (until the bank takes loads of charges:eek: ) If you use a debit card knowing their is not enough money to cover the transaction (either with or without an overdraft facility) then your actually breaking the rules yourself.

 

Most loans are covered by the CCA up to 25,000, although not where they are secured on land and certain other items. Although I think the 2006 revision has increased the limits. I disagree with the inclusion of a debit/charge card in the definition you found as it isnt a promise to pay by a creditor of yours, but is debited directly from your bank account (which in theory should have sufficienbt funds to cover the debit) some charge cards could be credit tokens though. Likewise most cheques would debit existing funds in the bank account but in some cases could debit a credit card. The later will be covered by the CCA and the credit card agreement. basically the difference comes down to whether the funds are supplied by a third party ( the CC company) or by yourself from a bank account.

[tamadus]

thank tamadus

i had already sent for cap one agreement and they have sent it but there is no date on it from them i have dated it, but they never. just scribbled a name......oh well don't want to deviate you from the original purpose of this thread. let me know how you get on with barclaycard:D

 

This thread is for any discussion regarding the credit agreement and the CCA poltmcm so your not deviating it at all. I have no doubt they hold a lot of agreements that they haven't signed, and do it only when they need to produce the document, unfortunately it's almost impossible for us to prove that. I'm not sure what affect their not dating the signature might have, but I suspect very little.

 

Just checked on Royal Mail website and the letter has landed on somebodies desk this morning, if you feel an earthquake starting its centred on Barclaycards offices

[tamadus]

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

I am aware if the sec 85 though - are we waiting for you to tes tthe case, or should we start writing to them about this?

 

Oh I'm elected to try it first am I ? lol

 

I was going to finish dealing with my claims under section 78 first but OK I'll pick a card at random that I havent started a claim for yet and send a letter. May have to be one I have already settled my charges claim with though as I am running out of accounts old enough to have issued a replacement card lol.

[un1boy]

Oh I'm elected to try it first am I ? lol

 

I was going to finish dealing with my claims under section 78 first but OK I'll pick a card at random that I havent started a claim for yet and send a letter. May have to be one I have already settled my charges claim with though as I am running out of accounts old enough to have issued a replacement card lol.

 

Lol, not at all - I'll try it first if you like? Might need a little help from you though, lol. Let me know, I'm quite happy!!

[tamadus]

Lol, not at all - I'll try it first if you like? Might need a little help from you though, lol. Let me know, I'm quite happy!!

 

Go for it:D section 85 (1) is the relevent legislation and the crucial words are copy of the executed credit agreement. That basically means it has to be signed by both parties to the agreement.

[un1boy]

Go for it:D section 85 (1) is the relevent legislation and the crucial words are copy of the executed credit agreement. That basically means it has to be signed by both parties to the agreement.

 

Is this regarding the fact that the agreement needs to be sent with each replacement card?

[un1boy]

Stupid question, please ignore my above post.....

 

It says this:

85 Duty on issue of new credit-tokens

 

(1) Whenever, in connection with a credit-token agreement, a credit-token (other than the first) is given by the creditor to the debtor, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it.

 

(2) If the creditor fails to comply with this section—

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

 

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

 

(3) This section does not apply to a small agreement.

 

 

I'll draft a letter and PM you for your thoughts, is that ok? Or should I post it on here?