Cap1 & CCA return

[zubo]

OK, thanks a lot. This was a 1999 agreement and so seems it doesn't need to be there. It's one less stick to beat Egg with then

 

Oh well, the agreement still doesn't have anything about default charges and the signature is on a different page to the prescribed terms, so all is not lost

 

but mine was Feb 2004... so shouldnt mine be different?

 

Z

[zubo]

Hi,

 

Any comments on the fact that default charges should be on the agreement?

 

Un1 - see what Egg say about it in my thread.

 

I think they should be in the agreement...

 

Pam/ Peter ??

 

Thanks

 

Z

[joneshousehold]

I have had some developments on a CCA request to Capital One and am looking for some advice. Anyone able to offer some thoughts or ideas please?

 

My thread is here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/capital-one/80532-advice-cca-action-please.html#post713533

[zubo]

Hi

 

I think this might come under information that can be on the reverse or on another page provided that the main doc refers you to any separate T&Cs.

 

E.g. in the Egg agreement in front of me it is No. 17 in the 2nd page of the T&Cs.

 

Regards, Pam

 

Pam

 

Is that your original T&C - what was the date?

 

thanks

 

george

[zubo]

Hi Pam, in the OFT guidance, the default charges are specifically under 'What must be in the agreement' and not in the part that says it can be in any other document referred to in the agreement.

 

To quote:

 

Some terms must always be contained in the signature document as described under the

heading ‘What the agreement must contain’. But any other term of the agreement can be

recorded either in the signature document itself or another document referred to in it.

 

The default charges are under the heading 'What the agreement must contain'

 

YES...

 

So... anyone... does there absence in the agreement make the agreement improperly executed???

 

Thanks

 

Z

[zubo]

Hi Ian

 

The problem here is that a 'document' can consist of more than one page and this is demonstrated by the OFT guidance on what the agreement must contain:

What the agreement must contain

 

1 A heading in one of the following forms of words shown prominently on the first page:

 

So, in my Egg Card example, the first page contains the prescribed terms with all the statutory notices and the signatures on the back, the 2nd and 3rd pages contain all the other terms and conditions, including the default charges info. These 3 pages make up the 'agreement document' so the default charges are contained within it.

 

Regards, Pam

 

They cheated on me... only 2 pages and absolutely no mention of default charges....

 

Z

[angry cat]

There are no default charges shown on my alleged egg agreement (2001) either?

AC

[zubo]

Great link on Restitution and case law here

 

Links to Restitution and Unjust Enrichment materials

 

thanks

 

Z

[un1boy]

Hi Pam, in the OFT guidance, the default charges are specifically under 'What must be in the agreement' and not in the part that says it can be in any other document referred to in the agreement.

 

To quote:

 

Some terms must always be contained in the signature document as described under the

heading ‘What the agreement must contain’. But any other term of the agreement can be

recorded either in the signature document itself or another document referred to in it.

 

The default charges are under the heading 'What the agreement must contain'

 

What constitutes the sig document? My Egg agreement has the prescribed terms on page 1, then a load of crap on page 2 with mine and their sig.......doesn't the sig doc mean on the same page as the sig?

[davefirewalker]

Ive had these thoughts.....as i have an agreement 3 pages long. unfortunately the regs make a reference to the heading "regulated by cca 1974...etc" must be on the FIRST page......it follows that a doc can have more than one page......sorry

 

Dave

[un1boy]

Ive had these thoughts.....as i have an agreement 3 pages long. unfortunately the regs make a reference to the heading "regulated by cca 1974...etc" must be on the FIRST page......it follows that a doc can have more than one page......sorry

 

Dave

 

Hmmm...I guess, that would make sense!

 

Dave, I am sorry to ask mate, but can u give me a link to the regs?

 

Cheers.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

urgent

 

IS A CREDIT CARD issued by a high street bank

 

RUNNING -ACCOUNT CREDIT OR

 

FIXED-SUM CREDIT SORRY FOR ASKING SUch an obvious question

[bfb]

running account credit per the Act section 10 also see section 14

[angela1606]

hi ive just re read my welcome loan and it says about a default if i dont pay but no mention of defult charges. in fact on the whole agreement it only says something about defult interest but not any monetary value of any charges or fees no written knowledge of oh if you dont pay we will send someone to your house and charge you £25 for it lol.

 

ang xxx

[davefirewalker]

un1boy link is here

 

The Office of Fair Trading: Cancellable and non-cancellable agreements

 

it sets out the format of the docs and what they MUST contain

 

Dave

[angela1606]

oh btw HAPPY EASTER EVERYONE LOL

[davefirewalker]

Angela have you read the docs in my previous post. it gives the exact format of how the docs should be laid out and what they MUST contain. I got a photocopy of mine and started crossing out or highlighting where it was ok.

 

What was left came in for some very close scrutiny

 

Its also important to find out what sort of agreement you have. does it have a cancelable section in it, where did you sign it (at home or on their premises)

 

rgds

 

Dave

[FANTASY CHARGES]

running account credit per the Act section 10 also see section 14

 

OK CREDIT CARDS are running credit

 

can anyone see any mileage in the words in blue below

meaning if you are close to your credit limit and a charge (say your monthly interest) takes you over your credit limit according to section 10 you have "not as such" gone over your credit limit ??? and they can't charge you a fee ???

 

 

10 Running-account credit and fixed-sum credit

(1) For the purposes of this Act—

 

(a) running-account credit is a facility under a personal credit agreement whereby the debtor is enabled to receive from time to time (whether in his own person, or by another person) from the creditor or a third party cash, goods and services (or any of them) to an amount or value such that, taking into account payments made by or to the credit of the debtor, the credit limit (if any) is not at any time exceeded; and

 

(b) fixed-sum credit is any other facility under a personal credit agreement whereby the debtor is enabled to receive credit (whether in one amount or by instalments).

(2) In relation to running-account credit, “credit limit” means, as respects any period, the maximum debit balance which, under the credit agreement, is allowed to stand on the account during that period, disregarding any term of the agreement allowing that maximum to be exceeded merely temporarily.

 

 

(3) For the purposes of section 8(2), running-account credit shall be taken not to exceed the amount specified in that subsection (“the specified amount”) if—

(a) the credit limit does not exceed the specified amount; or

(b) whether or not there is a credit limit, and if there is, notwithstanding that it exceeds the specified amount,—

(i) the debtor is not enabled to draw at any one time an amount which, so far as (having regard to section 9(4)) it represents credit, exceeds the specified amount, or

(ii) the agreement provides that, if the debit balance rises above a given amount (not exceeding the specified amount), the rate of the total charge for credit increases or any other condition favouring the creditor or his associate comes into operation, or

(iii) at the time the agreement is made it is probable, having regard to the terms of the agreement and any other relevant considerations, that the debit balance will not at any time rise above the specified amount.

[davefirewalker]

Hi Fantasy

 

No I would read that as your credit limit is set at £nnnn. The credit company may allow you a temporary "overdraft" but that is not included in your credit limit.

 

Dave

[FANTASY CHARGES]

Hi Fantasy

 

No I would read that as your credit limit is set at £nnnn. The credit company may allow you a temporary "overdraft" but that is not included in your credit limit.

 

Dave

so do you think they have a right to charge you £12 for going overdrawn ?

[davefirewalker]

My feeling on the subject is that even £12 is supect as we all know it may only cost about £2. but if it is in their t&c then they may well think that they have the right to charge it. but according to the regs you highlighted, it would seem that there are two scenarios. either a) you go over your limit and they charge you (likely) or b) they have a clause that will allow you to go over your limit on a temp basis with no charge (unlikely). in either case it will not affect your credit limit as granted.

 

Dave

[Guest Battleaxe]

My feeling on the subject is that even £12 is supect as we all know it may only cost about £2. but if it is in their t&c then they may well think that they have the right to charge it. but according to the regs you highlighted, it would seem that there are two scenarios. either a) you go over your limit and they charge you (likely) or b) they have a clause that will allow you to go over your limit on a temp basis with no charge (unlikely). in either case it will not affect your credit limit as granted.

 

Dave

 

I can't resist this.

 

My T & C's state I am going to punch you on the nose.

 

I then punch you on the nose for not playing the game my way.

 

It does not make it lawful.

 

The £12.00 charges are unlawful even if they are in the T & C's.

[un1boy]

un1boy link is here

 

The Office of Fair Trading: Cancellable and non-cancellable agreements

 

it sets out the format of the docs and what they MUST contain

 

Dave

 

Cheers mate!

[un1boy]

They cheated on me... only 2 pages and absolutely no mention of default charges....

 

Z

 

The agreement I have was sent ot me as part of a sar but I will do a sec 78 request soon - I need to know whether I should claim harges back first then go for sec 78?

 

Also, I have just read the regs and it does read to me that the agreement should contain (as a prescribed term) the amount of default charges -so, if this info is not there, the agreement would be unenforcable.

 

That surprises me as Egg seem to have been the only provider I have that have spplied anything near to a proper agreement.

 

If they don't have the default charges anywhere in their original t & c's and then have charged you, is that unlaeful too? Which means you should get a full, unconditional refund plus interest?

[ian1969uk]

I agree that the OFT guidance seems clear that the default charges need to be on the signature document, and the lack of this may make the agreement uneforceable. I would say this is particularly relevant where they have applied these charges as they are actually applying a term that wasn't in the agreement. That would be like applying interest to an interest free loan.

 

Egg are the only ones who have actually yet supplied me with a copy of the credit agreement, all the others haven't sent anything yet and are now in default (no payments from me until they comply with my request).

 

Looks like they may not have got things as watertight as they'd like to think.