Misrepresentation- private vehicle sale.

[Andromedes]

Hi All, wonder if anycone could advise if I am wasting my time pursuing this.

 

I bought a motorcycle unseen via the internet, based on the advert and the seller's testimony. I have been buying and selling motorcycles for around 35 years and have standard questions that I always ask. (V5 present, frame and engine numbers correct, registered to the seller at their address, are there any current or recent problems with the bike, has it ever been involved in an accident?).

 

The seller stated that all was in order and 'it had never missed a beat'. On collecting the bike 2 weeks later (opposite end of the country) I did manage to miss a couple of issues with the bike for which I have to take responsibility.

 

However I later discovered, via posts the seller had submitted to a forum, that the bike had very recently been involved in an albeit relatively minor accident. The consequences were a hydrolocked engine, it suffered oil ingestion causing the motor to stop - (mechanical equivalent of jamming a metal bar into the spokes of a wheel turning at 1,000rpm) and damage to the fairing. Further posts detail the submission of the bike to a dealer where he is advised to have an engine strip to determine any stress damage.

 

Advice the seller ignores and subsequently he manages to get the bike running himself and promptly sells it........... to me.

 

Although the bike initally ran well, I have not run it any further until I can ascertain the true state of the engine internals.

 

While I'm not saying that I would have avoided the bike, my contention is that had the seller disclosed this information when asked I would not have offered as much for the bike.

 

My Question(s):

 

Did the seller have a legal obligation to disclose the information when asked (I have documentary proof that the seller advertsied the bike as 'having never missed a beat').

 

Is it innocent/negligent misrepresentation

 

Do I have a claim for a partial refund based on a reduced value.

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Andromedes

[saintly_1]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

I will move your post to a forum where it will be seen by people with the appropriate knowledge

 

saintly

[raydetinu]

It sounds like misrepresentation to me and I would ask for your money back or take him to court.

Email or write recorded delivery and give him 14 days to respond or you will start court action.

[Andromedes]

Thanks for your reply Raydetinu. I'm actually part way there.

 

I did talk to the seller after I discovered the forum posts that he had placed. His inital reaction was that he was under no obligation because 'all the problems had been fixed', I asked him how he could know what the long term impact the hydrolock had had on the engine. At this point he was not shifting on any refund and I was under the impression that in a private sale I had no recourse. I was simply left asking him to send on the remainder of the items he had promised in the sale.

 

These didn't arrive and in a follow up phone call he claimed to have posted them but predictably had no proof of postage. I advised him that he still had a responsibility to provide the items. His final response was " I could pick them up on ebay for a few quid". I got no further and he declined any further contact, so I sent him a letter stating that if he didn't provide these items I would pursue it through the courts.

 

In the mean time I was advised that I may have a case for misrepresentation so I sent a further pre-action letter stating that while I was open to any form of mediation, I now wanted not just the missing items but also a 10% refund of what I paid for the bike on the basis that had I known the history I wouldn't have offered as much for it. This was through MCOL, I have now been notified that he intends to defend the case and also that it gets heard at his local court.................again opposite end of the country!!

 

I also came across this gem of information

 

“The single most important question to ask before taking acase to court is whether there is a valid claim. In some situations it may seemobvious that somebody has done something, or failed to do something, whichgives rise to a claim in law. However, just because a person has beendishonourable or done something objectionable, it does not necessarily meanthat what they have done is legally actionable.”

Whilst I feel that he should be taken to account for his underhand actions, I do wonder if its worth the effort so would like to know if anyone has had a similar situation and if I have any chance at all or do I just chalk it up to experience.

Thank you

[crem]

It is true that should a company sue an individual through the county court, then the case will automatically transfer to the defendants court. As you are an individual also, I think you may be able to appeal against this court transfer.

[raydetinu]

Andromedes; Thats what courts are fo,r to resolve cases from oppossing views/opinions.

It is up to you decide if the stress/time is worth it in relation to the value of claim and chance of being succesfull and actually getting paid out even if you win.

[heliosuk]

I think on balance, the words buyer beware kick in. I cannot see the seller as a private sale can be held to account unless you could prove he is trading. With this in mind, over 35 years of buying and selling bikes, are you not disclosing you are a trader or just someone who buys a lot of bikes, uses them, feels like a change and then sells on. There is a specific number of vehicles you can buy and sell in a year before becoming a trader which needs to be declared. You need to clarify this first.

[Andromedes]

Hi Heloisuk, no I'm not a trader or at least with a 2 bikes in the last 4 years history, not a very successful one. I was simply trying to demonstrate that 35 years experience of buying and selling motorbikes means I know what questions to ask in a sale in order to understand what it is I am buying. Im not an newbie that is simply screaming foul at the first attempt.

 

The issue I have is; that a hydrolock event might not create initial problems but does have potentially long term consequences for an engine, I believe that the seller knew this, praised his God that he got the engine running and moved it on as quickly as possible, which is why he kept quiet when asked about previous problems or accident damage.

 

I do understand your point about caveat emptor which again is why I want to know as much about my potential purchase as I can prior to committing. However I have recently been advised that if asked about previous damage/accidents etc he is obliged to answer truthfully, even in a private sale, otherwise its misrepresentation.

 

However this was not professional advice I was given and if this is not the case, which is why I came onto this site in the hope that someone more experienced in the field might know and not for a pre-determined outcome to the case. If he remains unaccountable then its unlikely I will proceed.

 

 

In any event, thank you for your advice

 

Andromedes

[heliosuk]

If it is running satisfactorily then it is unlikely that much damage has been done. An easy way to check, assuming more than one cylinder, is 1. to run a compression check and compare values and 2. to put each pot at TDC and fill with oil measuring the amount before it flows out, again assuming it's an inline engine.

 

The terminal results of a hydraulicing are exhibited by a platic deformation of the con rod which changes the combustion chamber capacities. It will also throw the engine out of balance.

 

If the results per cylinder are comparable and comparable to manufactuers specs then it is unlikely that much damage has occured.

 

If you went to court this would be an easy defence for the seller.

 

Personally if it was me I'd put it down to experience.

[Andromedes]

Thanks Heliosuk.

 

Just one question, is a private seller legally obliged to give details, when asked, about any previous accident damage??

 

Cheers

 

Andromedes

[olliedog12000]

From what I can work out if you asked the question about history etc and didn't get the correct answers from the seller and can prove this,yes you can take him to court for failing to disclose information that may risk the buyer pulling out of the purchase. But as a word of warning I bought a car that had been clocked back in sept 2010 and I won the court case but I am still trying to recover the money,

If the amount you want back is less than £600 I personally wouldn't bother as although you should/could win the case you wont be able to send in the bailiff if it gets that far and the court cost me £370 + time off work and other expenses of which I wasn't awarded so you could end up throwing more money at it than what you might get back.