Notice of intention to apply for order for sale

[SunshineSue]

Hi Brig - account hacking!!

 

I know it's not a laughing matter, all this, but your suggestion of offering them 20% less did make me smile I've got 7 days in which to reply so I will get back to them with my new figure next week, and then run and hide lol.

 

Thank you

[Ell-enn]

Given that your gas and electricity bills are going to be much higher over the coming winter months, you would be quite right to revise your offer

[SunshineSue]

Hi Ell-en - I'm not in the UK though, but fuel prices here are horrendous.

[Ell-enn]

Hi Ell-en - I'm not in the UK though, but fuel prices here are horrendous.

 

Oops, forgot that - but surely you will pay more over winter ?

[SunshineSue]

Absolutely - it gets very cold and damp over here so ALOT of heating is required during winter. Electricity is horrendously expensive all year round.

[eggboxy1]

Hi Sue

 

It's just further BS on their part. If they had any chance of actually obtaining an OFS they would have moved on it long ago. All they have left is to try and extract the biggest repayment they can, but they are frustrated because you aren't playing ball.

 

The fear they are trying to instil by threatening to go for an OFS, in order to extract the I&E, pretty much gives the game away. So stay resolute and don't give them something to work off trying to gain a larger repayment.

 

My advice would be to follow Abrigadier and also state that if they aren't willing to now accept your repayment you see no point in wasting further time continuing to correspond with them.

 

They're chancer's pure and simple.

[SunshineSue]

Hi eggboxy1 - thanks, yet again. I know you mentioned earlier about not having to give my I&E unless a judge requested it - should I point this out to them and also, should I point out that it is joint mortgage, with not much equity to be had, and this debt is in my name only? Or should I just keep it simple? I was brought up in the era when, if you saw a policeman, you felt guilty, even when you knew you weren't and this is taking me right back to those feelings lol.

[sequenci]

It is a widely accepted principle that a submission of an I&E form is paramount when negotiating affordable payments with creditors. Whilst it's a true statement that only a judge can FORCE disclosure a creditor is only likely to consider a reduced offer if they can see that the offer is fair and reasonable based upon realistic expenditure figures and information about any other potential creditors. Any skilled money/debt adviser worth their salt will tell you this, as will all the various organisations that license and regulate the industry.

 

I do get disheartened when folks on here say any different as there is the potential that it can cause serious ramifications down the line, e.g. creditors are more likely to bring further action.

[SunshineSue]

I do understand what you are saying sequenci, and thank you for your comments - now I don't know what to do

[eggboxy1]

Hi Sue

 

I certainly understand how you feel regarding your comments about policeman (my Grandad was a Policeman) but, sadly, much of the respect and regard we used to have for such offices have long since been diminished due to the changing remit of those offices in today's World.

 

However, it's those inbuilt feelings you have described that your creditor is trying to play on in trying to extract a higher payment through a mixture of guilt and fear. I have a lot of time for Sequenci but his "disheartened" feelings here are misplaced. If you provide an I&E (particularly to this Solicitor - Google them!) they will pester the life out if you in future as they know they can manipulate you with fear. CAG is littered with people who have "tried to do the right thing" but have suffered at the hands of unreasonable creditors.

 

Ultimately, you have to do what YOU think is best; but please don't make the mistake of thinking your creditor is trying to be, or will be in future, reasonable. It's a numbers game to them and, sadly, the tactics they use of fear and coercion will continue to work and be used as long as they reap rewards.

 

As I previously stated on this thread, you need to keep hold of the facts of your circumstances and understand your creditor will be aware they have gone as far as they can (legally) with the CO as they know they won't get an OFS under your circumstances.

 

Creditors, contrary to what many people think, aren't, either, vindictive; they are businesses and as such they won't waste money chasing you through court for an OFS when they know the chances of obtaining one are virtually zero. But as businesses, if they thought they had any chance of getting an OFS you would have been in Court long ago and you wouldn't still be being pestered for a fairly irrelevant I&E.

[sequenci]

I'm a debt counsellor by profession so try and follow best practices where possible. I know all the tricks creditors try - but also all the strategies that can stop them trying it on. I will agree that some firms are a complete nightmare and that the thing to *really* concentrate on here is that orders for sale are as rare as red squirrels.

 

I do know that further action can be easily prevented right at the start if individuals engage with their creditors right from the off, a pro-active approach is certainly encouraged. I do appreciate when things have moved along a little a more bespoke procedure may need to be adopted. As an aside the organisation I work for in the day spends a significant amount of time and effort lobbying the credit industry as a whole and there are changes happening - albeit too slowly for our liking. As an example the new OFT guidance is looking promising .

[SunshineSue]

Thank you very much, both of you - I think I will stick with Plan A and let them know that the amount I offered is all I can afford, and stick to it!

[eggboxy1]

I'm a debt counsellor by profession so try and follow best practices where possible. I know all the tricks creditors try - but also all the strategies that can stop them trying it on. I will agree that some firms are a complete nightmare and that the thing to *really* concentrate on here is that orders for sale are as rare as red squirrels.

 

I understand that in your position you would have to be seen to be offering the "correct" advice and I understand and respect that. I also agree that prior to any court action an I&E is vital to help avoid further problems.

 

But Sue's passed that stage and she is now dealing with the bottom feeders who go beyond the pale in their collection methods as all they want is results. They are not concerned with people like Sue's welfare or, particularly, where she gets the money to repay the debt, either.

 

At this stage the I&E becomes nothing more than a test to see if they can still manipulate and extract information from of you. If they do they will keep on trying for more; but once they realise they can't then the game is up for them and they stop wasting their time trying.

Edited October 21, 2011 by eggboxy1

[SunshineSue]

Oh well, more of the same

 

Their reply today:

"Our client has reviewed your email and we confirm that we cannot accept any repayment proposals from you, without having full knowledge of your financial situation.

 

You have failed to complete and return the income and expenditure forms sent to you on 4 previous occasions. We confirm that all correspondence sent to you in relation to this matter will be presented to the court.

 

Our client is not refusing your offer of replayment; however it cannot accurately assess your offer without sight of your completed income and expenditure form.

 

We remind you, that this matter is at a critical stage and that it is imperative you provide full disclosure and evidence of the information requested.

 

Please therefore find enclosed, a final income and expenditure form for you to complete and return, within 7 days, together with documentary evidence to support the information provided.

 

If you wish to discuss this matter and complete and (sp) income and expenditure form over the telephone, please contact our office ...........

 

Failing the above, our instructions are to proceed with an order for sale application.

 

Yours faithfully"

 

Should I just repeat my offer yet again?

 

Thanks

 

[eggboxy1]

Oh well, more of the same

 

Their reply today:

"Our client has reviewed your email and we confirm that we cannot accept any repayment proposals from you, without having full knowledge of your financial situation.

 

You have failed to complete and return the income and expenditure forms sent to you on 4 previous occasions. We confirm that all correspondence sent to you in relation to this matter will be presented to the court.

 

Our client is not refusing your offer of replayment; however it cannot accurately assess your offer without sight of your completed income and expenditure form.

 

We remind you, that this matter is at a critical stage and that it is imperative you provide full disclosure and evidence of the information requested.

 

Please therefore find enclosed, a final income and expenditure form for you to complete and return, within 7 days, together with documentary evidence to support the information provided.

 

If you wish to discuss this matter and complete and (sp) income and expenditure form over the telephone, please contact our office ...........

 

Failing the above, our instructions are to proceed with an order for sale application.

 

Yours faithfully"

 

Should I just repeat my offer yet again?

 

Thanks

 

 

The only way you are going to get rid of these goons is to ignore them as they are still trying to extract the I&E as a stepping stone to further demands. Sadly, communication only encourages them!

 

However, if you do feel you need to respond, simply add that your offer is based on your financial ability to pay and if it's not accepted within 14 days you will withdraw that offer it and use the money to repay your other creditors.

[Ell-enn]

I think what you have to remember is, that if they do apply for an order for sale, you will need to get back to the UK to defend (Unless of course you are able to pay a solicitor over here to act for you) and you may not have much notice, as they know you live abroad they may try and pull a fast one.

[SunshineSue]

Hi

 

I could get back pretty quickly if need be and this time of year is the best time for me to be able to do so, work-wise.

 

Is it worth me pointing out that the house is heavily mortgaged (in both mine and my husband's name), very little equity given the current market, and that the debt is in my name only? And that I am prepared to an I&E form should a judge request it - or is that a pointless exercise?

 

Thanks again.

[eggboxy1]

I think what you have to remember is, that if they do apply for an order for sale, you will need to get back to the UK to defend (Unless of course you are able to pay a solicitor over here to act for you) and you may not have much notice, as they know you live abroad they may try and pull a fast one.

 

I think it's better to remember Sequenci's comment that OFS's are rarer than Red Squirrels.

 

This is for consumer debt, it isn't going to happen.

[Ell-enn]

Yes, but if someone was applying for an order for sale I think I'd want to be there to defend it.

[eggboxy1]

Yes, but if someone was applying for an order for sale I think I'd want to be there to defend it.

 

But this "someone" isn't going to go for an OFS.

 

And to keep pushing the "if" factor is misleading given the facts of both Sue's circumstances and the court statistics of how often, and more importantly under what circumstances, Creditors do decide to proceed for an OFS.

 

(My bold)

 

Will you make an absolute guarantee it won't happen by restitution if it does??

Edited October 29, 2011 by Conniff

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Must agree with Ell-enn here this cannot be ignored

certainly this does give them the ideal an opening to

pull a fast one and get an order by default.

 

Brig.

[eggboxy1]

Must agree with Ell-enn here this cannot be ignored

certainly this does give them the ideal an opening to

pull a fast one and get an order by default.

 

Brig.

 

You see, it's this type of comment that has people who really have nothing else to fear from their creditor (given the creditor has a CO) that gets them sweating and panicking about the "but what if!" scenario. It's a total nonsense and totally ignores the facts of what happens in this situation.

 

Creditors are businesses pure and simple and, in this instance, they are using "business" tactics to see how far they can push to extract a quicker and more sizeable repayment. Saying they may "get one by default" is, apart from being total nonsense, doing there job for them.

 

The simple "business" reason they wouldn't go for an OFS in a Sue's case is because she is (1) - Heavily mortgaged - so they could spend a lot of time, money and effort realising nothing (2) - Is a Joint Owner so there is even less to go after and (3) She has children living in the property as their main home. The key to knowing their hand is their continued silly persistence of asking for an I&E. As I've said before, given they are businesses if there was any chance they would get an OFS they wouldn't waste time messing around on this matter.

 

It's why the court stats state reflect that only 0.3% of CO's ever progress to an OFS (which is even less than the Red Squirrel simile Sequenci used to describe their rarity.) And a simple scan of CAG or Google will see that OFS are restricted to cases where there is a council or government debt or a joint owner is trying to realise their half of the equity (but feel free to contradict me on this and lay out the examples of people in Sue's position have been forced to sell up.)

 

As I said previously; decide on the facts, people, not the fear.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

You see my comment is made from

many years of experience and I have

learnd that on most occasions it can be

very unwise to advise people to ignore,

do nothing, it wont happen too many times

have I seen these matters then ending of

with judgements by default, repos' and various

othe orders, the creditors DCAs are no longer

making meaningless threats, the recon agreements

situation, the balance of probabilities revival by the

judges are all having an impact on when and how

debts are recovered.

In my opinion the suggestion that such matters are

ignored these day is dangerous, misleading and

verging on stupid.

[eggboxy1]

You see my comment is made from

many years of experience and I have

learnd that on most occasions it can be

very unwise to advise people to ignore,

do nothing, it wont happen too many times

have I seen these matters then ending of

with judgements by default, repos' and various

othe orders, the creditors DCAs are no longer

making meaningless threats, the recon agreements

situation, the balance of probabilities revival by the

judges are all having an impact on when and how

debts are recovered.

In my opinion the suggestion that such matters are

ignored these day is dangerous, misleading and

verging on stupid.

 

All good bluster, but where are the examples to refute what I state?

 

There are dozens of examples on CAG where people ignoring a creditor receive a CCJ; and there are also dozens of examples on CAG where people who further ignore a creditor obtain a CO. But this isn't what we are talking about here.

 

So, please, show me some examples gained over your "many years of experience" (or even some here on CAG) where a person in Sue's situation is forced to sell their house. If you can't; then you are guilty of making judgements based on incorrect supposition rather than the actual facts.That is far more dangerous as it creates unnecessary fear whereby people make the wrong decision for their situation.

 

Like i said previously, don't do their job for them.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

As you seem to be the expert here go ahead

and advise as you see fit, if you can recall matters

over 40 years you have my admiration.

If I had the time or the inclination I could no

doubt show a large number of such instances.

Advising constantly to ignore correspondence is

DANGEROUS.