personal dispute with flatmate - LL emails us to leave within 2 wks

[London-123]

Hello,

We're looking for advice as to how to proceed from this situation, and would be very grateful.

 

We are two friends sharing a room in a shared flat - a fixed term tenancy which continued after the tenancy's period ended, so currently a periodic tenancy I believe.

 

The situation is this:

A new tenant moved into the flat some weeks ago, from the start she behaved in an offhand and rude manner to my (also female) friend - making demands about how people lived in the flat, and complaining that my friend used the kitchen as a study space in the evening (there is no other available space since the flat's living room is rented out as this woman's room).

 

Owing to her room having thin walls, she was apparently kept awake by people using the kitchen for any purpose after she had gone to bed. We tried to accomodate her on this, and minimised the use of the room.

She continued to behave resentfully toward my friend (ie moving other tenants' washing-up over to her food area, damaging her cooking pots etc). This came to a head in a late-night row - my friend's washing being turned off mid-cycle by the woman, despite washing often been done late at night in the flat by every tenant. In defending herself, my friend became extremely aggravated by the woman, and made a kind of fingerpointing/handwaving gesture toward her, miscalculating the distance between them and brushing her chin with the back of her fingertips.

 

The woman claimed that she had been hit, insisting it was a deliberate attack. Several minutes later the woman returned from her own room to ask that they be 'civilised' and my friend apologised for touching her.

She appeared to accept the apology.

 

I spoke to the woman by myself the next day. I described how her actions to date had aggravated relations - and to no purpose, since we had no dispute with any of her requests regarding the flat. I explained how her actions had been taken to be aggressive and uncooperative by both of us, and that led to their argument. I let her answer each of the points and she seemed satisfied by the agreements we reached. But she then proclaimed regarding my friend - "I wont accept anyone being disrespectful to me..." I said that thats a personal thing between the two of them.

 

The next day, the landlord messaged my friend asking her to reconcile. When my friend next saw the woman - 2-3 days later, she explained her aggravation and repeated her apology for touching her and calling her names. The woman would not accept the apology, saying it was not 'from the heart'.

 

She has since insisted that the landlord ask us to leave, claiming that my friend was the aggressor in the dispute. The landlord has emailed us to say he's sorry but since 'you guys cannot get on', we must leave in less than two weeks, offering his apology.

 

How should we respond to this? We are both in financial difficulty and will find it very difficult to move at such short notice.

 

Thanks for reading this long request...

[padja]

this is very complicated my personal advice would be go to CAB or ring Shelter, they will be able to offer better advcie than I can give. One thing I would say as you have both been there much longer I'm surprised by LL asking you to leave and not the new tenant. Now I may be guessing here but has she maybe said she knows someone else who will take over your place and was it maybe her intention in first place!! thats just a thought Ring Shelter up they are very good

[London-123]

thanks - padja. To clarify a little - we have been here for over a year and have always been able to resolve issues with any other tenant up til now.

 

The landlord has accepted the line that my friend was the aggressor and seems to prioritise the other woman's position as a 'victim' (my friend is late 20s and the other woman is about ten years' older).

 

I stayed out of the argument as it happened, to avoid intensifying the woman's sense of being the victim, and to avoid expressing aggression myself. I will take your advice and speak to the CAB... thanks again.

[MrShed]

Needless to say, that is not valid notice.

 

No way you or her need to leave in 2 weeks.

 

I assume the landlord does not live in the same building?

[London-123]

The landlord lives at a different address in London.

 

How do you recommend that we express this is not a valid notice period, and would it worsen our position to propose a different notice period? I do not accept that the other woman did not initiate the aggression toward my friend - who was apprehended at 2am by a raging ball of anger toward her.

[MrShed]

Realistically, you may unfortunately (and unfairly, based upon what you have said) have to start looking elsewhere.

 

But, you certainly have zero obligation to move in 2 weeks.

 

To my mind, you have two approaches.

 

1) Approach your landlord again, and attempt to reason with him, stating that you are the injured party, you do not wish to leave, and ask him to please reconsider. This would seem to be an obvious approach to follow, as there is nothing to lose.

2) Should the above fail, rather than bring to his attention that it is an invalid notice (you have no obligation to do so), I would probably leave it until quite close to the deadline date, and then inform him that you are not intending to leave on that date (dont give him a specific reason, no need to). By all means, be apologetic (albeit you have no need to be), but simply state that as you have no ability to leave to go elsewhere, you cannot leave. If he pushes on a reason, then state that the local housing authority do not class as homeless if you voluntarily leave without a court order (this is true).

 

Following these two options (you never know, option 1 may win out), then I can see one of two things happening.

 

1) He will attempt to remove you on that date. If he does, then contact your local housing officer (at the council) urgently. He will be committing a criminal offence.

2) He will attempt to evict you through the courts. This will fail.

 

With option 1, if he does manage to remove you, he will be committing a criminal offence and you will be entitled to very substantial damages (although you would have to sue him to see it).

 

With option 2, you are looking at at least 2 and a half months from now until he can actually legally evict. Probably substantially longer.

 

If the first approach above fails however, do not be under any illusions - you will need to leave in due course. But ensure that you enforce your security of tenure and do not voluntarily leave after 2 weeks unless it is in YOUR interest to do so.

 

Please do come back and let us know how you get on. I suspect there may be a bit more to this saga yet, but stand your ground.

Edited July 18, 2011 by MrShed

[MrShed]

As an afterthought - there is a potential option 3, in that he could issue a formal Section 8 notice based on the alleged anti social behaviour, which could instigate eviction proceedings earlier than two and a half months. But, I would be amazed if this landlord has even heard of a housing act from the sound of it, never mind a Section 8 notice. Even if he does, this will be easily contested at the court hearing.

Edited July 18, 2011 by MrShed

[MrShed]

A couple of additional questions that may add some fuel to the fire as well.

 

- Has your deposit been placed in a tenancy deposit scheme, and have you had formal notification of such?

- How many people in total reside in the property, and how many floors does it have?

 

I suspect the reason for you being picked as the people to leave by the way is that the landlord believes (partially wrongly) that you have little/no security of tenure as you are periodic as opposed to the new tenant who is (presumably) still within a fixed term AST.

[mariner51]

I would like some clarification here,

OP states they occupy a room with a friend. Is the friend a joint T on AST or just a long-term visitor?

OP suggests other female's room is the living room. Is the living room described as a communal area in OPs AST?

Whatever, OP is in a SPT and as such LL has to serve due Notice according to dates/rent period pertaining and obtain a Court repo order.

[padja]

Mr Shed is quite correct, I would try his option 1 first maybe if local housing has a mediation service for tenants suggest this (I'm only going on our LHA they offer if this service to all tenants to resolve disputes) However if he does refuse all attempts and insists you move out he will have to go to court, as was said if you leave you are intentionally homeless (every LHA will tell you to stay put until the last minute) Thinking more I would go to Shelter rather than CAB Shelter are experts in housing and will soon get you a resolution and if you do eventually get evicted will help get you suitable accommodation (in fact in long run you will be better off if he does kick you out) dont worry you have at the very least 2 months in a worse case scenario

[MrShed]

CAB are worse than useless in these situations from my personal experience. Shelter would be the way to go.

[London-123]

Thanks for the fantastic advice and information so far - we really appreciate it.

 

To answer questions:-

 

mariner51: " OP states they occupy a room with a friend. Is the friend a joint T on AST or just a long-term visitor?"

- my friend and I are on the same contract for the room - we have both our signatures on it and split the rent between us

 

"OP suggests other female's room is the living room. Is the living room described as a communal area in OPs AST?"

- When built the flat had a living room - but the landlord has always rented this out as a bedroom (hence the aggravation is partly caused by having so little space). The room has thin walls, which has been a major contribution to the woman's annoyance - she said she is woken up by even the noise of the fridge door opening. To revenge this, she has been consistently passive-aggressive toward other tenants.

 

Mr.Sheds questions: "- Has your deposit been placed in a tenancy deposit scheme, and have you had formal notification of such?

- How many people in total reside in the property, and how many floors does it have?"

- No the deposit is two weeks' rent

- The property has 5 present residents in total, and is a flat(ie., one storey) in an ex-council block.

 

I've spoken today to a London housing law centre, and made an appointment with the housing options department of the council that the law centre recommended for tomorrow.

 

A few minutes ago the LL sent us a text message that reads:

"Just confirming that you are leaving on 31 July. I have someone moving in on the first. THanks."

 

Since he has not shown anyone the room, we suspect that the woman has arranged with him that she take over our room (the rent is less and the room is not affected by the proximity to the kitchen). My friend reports that the woman has been walking around with a big smile on her face.

 

I'd guess the best thing is not to reply to this message (ie. "the notice is not legal") until after the appointment tomorrow?

 

Thanks to everyone again so far....

 

(Just to add:

- We are both receiving Local Housing Allowance at the moment.

 

- We are not wishing to stay here long-term, but we need adequate time/finances to move. The LL has a history of dealing with tenants in an unprofessional manner - wanting rent paid in cash ("if you're not in, just leave it in your room"), not to his bank account, not providing his address despite bills in his name arriving at the flat, failing to make repairs, and turning up without notice).

Edited July 19, 2011 by London-123

[MrShed]

Would advise the following. - I dont think you have a lot to gain from the law centre that we havent already told you. Not because they arent valuable, but because this is pretty clear cut. - Start documenting EVERYTHING. When the landlord turns up, exactly what he says and when, method of communication, etc etc. I have a slight suspicion this may go the route of unlawful eviction as opposed to delayed lawful eviction. - To clarify - you have had NO deposit protection information? I would text back at this stage and advise, simply and to the point, that the notice is insufficient and that you will not be vacating on that date, and that a formal letter will be following. Do you have his address? I presume so. If so, we can look to draft up a letter to formally respond (after this last text, would advise putting everything in writing). Also, do you have a copy of your original tenancy agreement?

[London-123]

Mr Shed -

Yes we have the original tenancy agreement. My friend has made photocopies in case we need to provide them to police etc as proof of present residence in the event of an unlawful eviction.

 

The contract does not have the landlord's address on it, and we do not have his address. It appears to be that he wishes to have himself listed as resident at this flat - would this be mortgage-related perhaps?

 

Would you advise that we text him to send us his address - and what shall we do if he makes excuses not to provide it?

 

(The LL, some time after we moved in, was the object of a national story in the media - found guilty of forging documents. Because of this we should be careful about how he might react.)

 

My friend has printed all email correspondance between her and the LL since the dispute arose. Her emails are conciliatory and acknowledge that she got overheated in responding to the woman's aggravating and controlling behaviour. The woman seems to expect my friend to 'bow down' to her, and will accept no fault herself.

 

r.e. the deposit - he seems to have returned it to previous tenants, albeit with quibbles over how. We paid the deposit just as an extra 2 weeks' rent, and have a signed receipt for it. (We have receipts for each month's rent, since I did not like paying in cash.)

 

Thanks

Edited July 19, 2011 by London-123

[MrShed]

So, can you just confirm for me - the tenancy agreement itself has NO address on it? Just a name? For the landlord contact details? This all really strengthens your position. Just about to leave work for the day so cant reply in as much detail as I would like. But. - The invalid notice means that he will need to re-serve valid notice. - When he proceeds to court to evict under said notice, he will be denied, as the deposit is not protected. - He will then need to protect the deposit and proceed again. - All the while, with no address on the tenancy, technically speaking - no rent is payable. He is going to have a hell of a job getting you out LAWFULLY within the next...6 months or so I would have said on the basis of the above, if you play your cards right. It is the potential for unlawful eviction that concerns me here.

[MrShed]

At this stage, do nothing - I will be about tomorrow. May be worth trying to get his address. If I was you I would be tempted to do a land registry search on your own property to find the details of the owner.

[London-123]

The only contact address we have for him is the school where he worked as deputy head. He no longer works at this school since the investigation.

 

How best to protect ourselves from an unlawful eviction?

 

Thanks again

 

(just to add info - the contract began September 2009 - the landlord has initialled 'Deposit paid' at the top.)

[MrShed]

OK, having thought about this, I would do the following.

 

- Text the landlord back today, saying simply as I put above - that unfortunately due to the notice being insufficient you are unable to vacate by this date. Also, ask him for his contact address so you can formalise this. Also state that as of now you wish all further communication to be in writing (i.e. letter form) only.

- If you have not already, seek to put a lock on your door. If you have, and the landlord has keys, get the lock replaced.

- Contact your local housing officer at the council as a matter of urgency, advising that you are concerned that you are about to be imminently unlawfully evicted.

- Perform a search on the land registry to try and find his contact details.

- Stop paying any and all rent from now, BUT place this in a seperate account.

- Free up your days if at all possible for the 31st July to the 2nd of August, so that you can be in the property at all times if required.

 

This is a real "out there" question, but is there any indication that the landlord could be aggressive or violent? Clearly my advice is correct legally, but you should not perform any actions that may endanger your safety. If this is the case, better to be unlawfully evicted and claim back later.

[MrShed]

If and when you get his address, I will assist in drafting up a formal letter. Should you not get an address, you may be forced to give it to him in person.

[London-123]

Thanks again, We're just getting ready to leave for the council housing appointment, but will send the text message to the LL this afternoon. The question of violence - I don't know for sure. There was a time when he came to the flat unannounced to collect rent, despite my friend having informed him that she wouldn't be in that evening. When he knocked on the door I told him that we were expecting him several days later, yet he became agitated and didn't leave. I told him I had to get back to work, and he raised his voice and ranted about having driven over here and how we are meant to pay. There was also an incident months back when, on being told we were a few days' late paying, he sent eviction-threatening messages. His casual, friendly unprofessionalism seems to quickly flip over into agitated hotheadedness if he doesn't get what he wants. My feeling is that changing the lock on the door to our room will be seen as surprising aggression toward him. I don't know anything of the law in this area - might he not claim this is damage to his property etc? What would happen if, say, he turns up to insist that he gets confirmation from us that we leave at the end of the month? He refuses to leave the flat until he gets this from us. I presume the police have no interest in that, so what's the correct approach? I work freelance so I can be in the property on those days. I feel that the LL will not want anything carried out in writing and try to harass us until we agree something on the phone/to his face. I'm perhaps better than my friend at dealing with arguments and calming people down, but the difference is that I'm male and he may feel justified in being physically aggressive toward me. And could you tell me what the law is regarding the landlord coming around unannounced - can we tell him 'You must give us 24hrs (etc) notice'? Will write more after the appointment in a few hours. thanks

 

--- apologies - formatting is not working for me on this post.

Edited July 20, 2011 by London-123
formatting

[MrShed]

Lets see what comes back from the housing officer and comment from there. I must simply stress that you should avoid putting yourself in a scenario where your safety is in question. Should there be a threat of physical violence, I would suggest that you do call the police. If he simply refuses to leave, ask your council housing officer if they can give you any support in that scenario. Alternatively, just let him sit there until he gets bored

[London-123]

Ok - the man we saw (not sure if he was a housing officer - the appointment was pretty rushed) was very clear, saying that since the deposit is not protected, no valid notice can be given. He referred to something called Section 1, about obtaining the landlord's address...

 

The outcome is that he will write to us in the morning, and has offered to write to the landlord. We're relieved about this as I want to make everything as impersonal as possible, and for the landlord to know that officials are supporting our side and we're not playing around.

 

Both you and he recommended changing the lock - but of course as this is a shared flat, this would just be the lock to our room, so we could still be locked out of the flat. How should we prepare for that possibility? Is my friend right that we should keep a passport/contract with us to prove identity to police if this happens?

(I don't suppose you know the kind of cost for a plain Yale lock fitting we should expect? Don't want to be conned by another London 'businessman'...)

[MrShed]

I paid £100 for three locks to be changed recently - but this was up in the North East. If you do a little bit of reading it should be extremely easy to do it yourself. I fully agree with what he has said re: deposit protection (not that it matters, as the notice is wholly invalid anyway). Have you text the landlord yet? I believe that you are referring to a Section 20 notice, which details the landlords address details. Without such a notice rent isnt payable and eviction must fail. Unfortunately, I see no way around the "being locked out of the flat" scenario. Although this would be blatent unlawful eviction territory.

[London-123]

We haven't texted the landlord yet - he has a history of sending barrages of texts, so we want the council officer's feedback first. I'll look into the lock issue and thanks again for all your help.

[mariner51]

If the other Ts agree you should be able to change the lock on the main entry doors, provided you give each T keys to replace the ones they currently have. Keep the original lock & keys. (LLs property)