Any advice on how to appeal? Car towed in 6 minutes for alleged contravention I dont think occured

[purplesuzie]

Hi all,

 

I was referred here by a user who was helped by users on this forum and filed a successful appeal. Here is my story.

 

I went to the doctors surgery, parked up outside (no lines, no signs, no nothing). When I came out (9 minutes later - I have a letter from the doctors to prove it) my car was gone. I thought it had been stolen, rung up the other half, while on the phone, a passer by described my car and said it had been towed.

 

I started speaking to the passer by and it turns out people get towed from that spot all the time as they claim there is a dropped curb there. The curb is not clear that it is a drop, it doesnt go down flush to the floor and there is no white line across it which is the case with other dropped curbs. There is no entrance near it. I did not see it. During this time I spoke to another 3 passers by who had all had their car towed from the area. This is proof it is not clear you are not meant to park there.... a money making scheme? I think so!

 

I called TRACE and they told me where my car was. I tried to speak to the pound and get my car back without having to pay given that I dont think the dropped curb was clear AND the fact they took my car in 6 minutes (they told me this) but alas the pound (run by a private company) and the council both claimed it was the others responsibility. The council even claimed there was no phone in the parking enforcement office!

 

I want to appeal this for two reasons:

 

1. I dont think it is clear that the curb is a dropped curb and therefore think it is unfair I was issued with a ticket (if I knew it was a dropped curb I wouldnt have parked there!)

2. Taking my car in 6 minutes seems massively unreasonable.

 

I was charged £265 for this by the way! I think they stole my car and then charged me for stealing it! Nice huh? Any help would be gratefully received! That £265 went on the credit card, and I really dont know how I'm going to pay it off!!

 

Thanks

 

purplesuzie

Edited July 13, 2011 by purplesuzie
typos

[hhh_88873]

First off, get on to your credit card firm and inform them it was a payment that was made under duress, and you wish to do a chargeback. Do this ASAP, if your credit card firm is open 24/7, do it literally right now. If not, as soon as they open.

 

You can appeal to the firm that towed your car, but I can pretty much tell you for a fact you'll be told to go whistle.

 

If its a public road, then like it or not the council DO have at least some, if not all responsiblity. Thats exactly why you pay road/council tax etc.

 

You didnt specify if there was any signage or anything to inform you of the penalties of parking, am I to assume there wasnt any?

 

But like I said, youre best bet is to get a chargeback done on your card, pronto.

[esmerobbo]

Could you give the link to the spot on street view? It may help if people can see the area!

[purplesuzie]

Unfortunately the street view spot is of when the buildings were beeing built so you can see it. I have a photo though, so I could post that? And no there were no signs or lines.

 

This happened on 28th June and I went on holiday, and have gotten back now so can I still call the credit card company?

[esmerobbo]

There does not need to be signs or lines to enforce a dropped kerb. Is this a dropped kerb with another one on the adjacent kerb, or is it a residential dropped kerb?

A picture would be helpful.

[purplesuzie]

I have attached pictures of the dropped curb.... it doesnt go flush to the floor and I didnt notice it. There is a similar dropped part further up the road which is just a mistake but looks similar.

 

There is an opposite dropped curb....

 

I also attached a picture of other dropped curbs in the area and they are clear.

 

My issue however is also the way in which it was towed. Dont they have to wait half an hour to tow?

[fork-it]

Subbing

[purplesuzie]

Subbing

 

Not sure what this means?

[hhh_88873]

Im not sure tbh. The credit card firm may indeed question the timescale, and I think there is a timelimit on doing a charge back, maybe it needs to be put in motion before the payment clears.Im not a finance expert by any means, so I would suggest you contact them and ask, and also get advice from the CAB.

[honeybee13]

Not sure what this means?

 

subbing = subscribing. There's also a way to do it without posting.

 

My best, HB

[fork-it]

Im not sure tbh. The credit card firm may indeed question the timescale, and I think there is a timelimit on doing a charge back,.

 

Its usually 90 days, but legally you can do a chargeback within 6 years.

[fork-it]

purplesuzie

 

If your chargeback is not successful, the way I see this is you have to appeal against the towing, and if that appeal is rejected then appeal to NPAS

 

If the council wont let you appeal because you have already paid the fine (towing) then you will have to recover the money in the small claims track.

[green_and_mean]

Trying to do a charge back is verging on fraud the Council are legally permitted to tow the vehicle if you pay to release the car and then cancel you are digging yourself into a deep hole.

[crem]

The (primary) purpose of a dropped kerb is to allow easy access from the pavement to the road for wheelchairs and pushchairs. I fail to see how the council could claim this is an official dropped kerb access point when there is a rainwater drain directly in front of the dropped kerb!

Edited July 14, 2011 by crem

[Jamberson]

You can appeal it with a view to getting a refund. But if you were on a dropped kerb, and it looks like you were, it's unlikely to succeed. Still worth trying though.

[fork-it]

If if it were, £265 penalty is too high (no legislation setting the fee anyway), she can claim unjust enrichment.

[Jamberson]

She can claim anything she likes, but £265 is fairly normal and unlikely to be viewed as excessive. As you say, there's no set charge.

[green_and_mean]

If if it were, £265 penalty is too high (no legislation setting the fee anyway), she can claim unjust enrichment.

 

Are you just making this up as you go along??

[purplesuzie]

Thanks your comments have been helpful. I was parked over this dropped curb, but as I said, I dont think its clear. I think I will claim based on the fact they took the car in 6 minutes which seems unreasonable.

 

Does anyone know if you can tick more than one box on why you think you have grounds to appeal?

 

I found this statement: If the ticket was issued because either there was no pay-and-display ticket displayed, or an expired pay-and-display ticket, the council must wait 30 minutes after serving the Penalty Charge Notice before clamping or towing you away. This is reduced to 15 minutes for anyone with three or more outstanding parking tickets.

 

I wonder whether that is only when tickets should be displayed or towing in general? Does anyone know? If it is towing in general, then I think I definitely have a case as they didnt wait 30 minutes.

 

Thanks.

 

purplesuzie

[esmerobbo]

The actual level of the dropped kerb in respect to the level of the road is uneven. I do agree looking at the picture it does not look clear. However it looks like its marked by a double width kerb stone, this maybe their arguing point!

 

As for the tow away, others may correct me if I am wrong but as the vehicle is causing an obstruction, I believe they can tow as soon as they place the PCN on it.

 

As far as the £265 is concerned I assume this included the PCN and the tow? The card issuer would tell you to appeal, I don't think you would stand an earthly with a charge back.

 

Others may advise otherwise but it seems your only appeal would be that the dropped kerb was not clear, but the double kerb stone and the kerb opposite, may make it unlikely to be accepted!

[Jamberson]

I agree with the above. The state of the dropped kerb seems a more reasonable line of appeal than the 6 minutes, which I expect would fail. They can tow after 6 minutes if they see fit. However the visibility of the kerb is more a matter of judgement, and just might offer a slim chance.

[purplesuzie]

Thanks .esmerobbo...

 

Does anyone know if there is a way of accessing records about how many people have been ticketed/towed from a certain spot. The reason being that I know a lot of people have been towed from there and all of them also missed that it was a dropped curb, so I think that could be my arguing point.

[esmerobbo]

F.O.I. to the local council.

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/

[TheBogsDollocks]

In any appeal I suggest including all the text below.

 

I bring to the council's attention the matter of procedural impropriety. The council has incorrectly applied those charges specified under section 101A of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 in regard to the collection of my vehicle when the correct charges to apply are those under section 102(2A). Paragraph 1(1)(b) within Schedule 9 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 confirms this assertion and further indication is evident under paragraph 1(b) contained in the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (Guidelines on Levels of Charges) (England) Order 2007.

 

As such the council had no lawful right to insist the penalty charge be paid when I collected my vehicle nor did the council have any right to administer the appeal process specified under regulation 11 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007. This regulation only applies where the applicable charges are those under section 101A of the RTRA 1984. Section 101A is made further to section 101 and therefore it only concerns the recovery of those vehicles that had the appearance of being abandoned. Appearing so either at the time of removal or sometime after.

 

Before my vehicle was removed the council served a regulation 9 PCN. The council has not only denied me the opportunity to pay the PCN within the statutory 28 day period but they have also denied me the opportunity to make an informal challenge and the right to receive and respond to an NtO. The PCN clearly bestows these rights upon me. If the council are advocating that these rights are not applicable then in essence the council is suggesting the PCN is a nullity. If the PCN is a nullity then there can be no penalty charge and thus no lawful removal. I expect a full refund shortly.

[crem]

If the £265 included a cost of the PCN as well as the tow, then I think it has been suggested previously in CAG that you can appeal the PCN on the basis of council impropriately in that by having to pay the PCN at the same time as recovering your car, you lost your right to appeal against the PCN in the first place,