Used car breakdown after 3 weeks

[mr_spine]

My mum bought a Fiat Punto for near £3000 from a local car dealer. The dealership has a website claiming "xxxxx car dealers offer 3 months free warranty and a clear HPI report on all vehicles giving you a peace of mind to choose from a variety of vehicles to suit your needs and budget"

 

At the point of sale he refused 3 month warranty due to the cars age (2002/2003). Unfortunately i wasn't there at the time, to stop the deal completing. The steering motor has failed, its a £500-600 fix. I have no doubt that he knew about this.

 

What rights do I have?? The car was purchased one month ago, the problem first appeared 3 weeks after the purchase. Is there anything I can print off to show him that he is liable?

 

UPDATE: I now have proof that he sells cars older than the punto, with 3 months warranty. Its clear to me that knew that the steering motor will fail.

Edited May 6, 2011 by mr_spine

[sailor sam]

The warranty would be irrelevant anyway so I would'nt worry about it. Any defect which occurs within 6 months of purchase is assumed to be there at the point of sale according to the SOGA. Your first step is to take it back for them to investigate and rectify. Keep it friendly and see what happens. If they refuse then you put the request in writing and begin to make things formal. Come back if you get a negative response.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

[Dragons Dennis]

100% agree with what sam has advised.

[Jeepstar]

Sam is talking tosh. Most warranties will not cover wear and tear items. It will be in your small print somewhere. The SOGA takes into account the age, price paid, miles amongst other factors to decide if you were treated unfairly. When you or your agent collected the car you accepted it without the 3 month warranty. In my opinion yes the seller could of done a lot more. If you had been my customer I'd of sourced a used part and gone halfers on it and provided free fitting. This is what I would suggest you do.

 

You can try pursuing it, you may be very lucky and win.. But in the meantime you are left with an unusable car.

[sailor sam]

Sam is talking tosh. Most warranties will not cover wear and tear items. It will be in your small print somewhere. The SOGA takes into account the age, price paid, miles amongst other factors to decide if you were treated unfairly. When you or your agent collected the car you accepted it without the 3 month warranty. In my opinion yes the seller could of done a lot more. If you had been my customer I'd of sourced a used part and gone halfers on it and provided free fitting. This is what I would suggest you do.

 

You can try pursuing it, you may be very lucky and win.. But in the meantime you are left with an unusable car.

 

Just the tone I would expect a trader to take. A power steering motors is hardly a wear and tear item for a start and a warranty of any description will not replace a consumers statatoury rights under the SOGA. To clarify, I would invite the OP to take advise from consumer direct to see which one of us is right.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Jeepstar]

Sam, On the punto it is an electric pump as opposed to mechanical. These do not last forever and after 8 or 9 years probably are getting near failure time.

 

Nobody is suggesting his statutory rights are forgotten. However what you can expect in way of those rights alter as the car gets older, covers more miles and reduces in value. You are incorrect in saying you have a 6 month warranty on a used item under SOGA.

 

I am not condoning the traders treatment. But I do feel going down any legal route would be time consuming, could be costly, stressful and you may still not end up with the result you want. Even if you did win you still have to get the trader to rectify or stump up money to compensate. Not always a gaurantee of either even with a court order.

[heliosuk]

Jeepster, the engineering sign off life for the components of the steering system on most european manufactuers cars is 150,000 miles or 10 years and this is NOT whichever occurs first. It's based on general calculations and my car has in excess of 200,000 miles, one owner and less than 10 years old.

 

Whilst your argument has some merit I am somewhat perturbed that you should consider offering a used steering gear and go "halfsey" on a 3 week old used car. The professional view would be to fit new and adjust the cost of the parts accordingly. However, this does not get away from the fact the failure was in such a short period of time. True it can happen which is why a trader needs to build in sufficient margins to cover such eventualities or insure against PROPERLY!

 

Not these micky mouse warranties offered which traders hide behind which are essentially worthless.

 

I'm not an advocate of SOGA particularly when it's used in the "problem is assumed to exist 6 months before" mode as this is just rubbish, is too easily defended and extreamly difficult to prove, but you've got to admit, which you tentatively have as a trader by suggesting what you would have done, the OP is not being unreasonable.

[sailor sam]

Sam, On the punto it is an electric pump as opposed to mechanical. These do not last forever and after 8 or 9 years probably are getting near failure time.

 

Nobody is suggesting his statutory rights are forgotten. However what you can expect in way of those rights alter as the car gets older, covers more miles and reduces in value. You are incorrect in saying you have a 6 month warranty on a used item under SOGA.

 

I am not condoning the traders treatment. But I do feel going down any legal route would be time consuming, could be costly, stressful and you may still not end up with the result you want. Even if you did win you still have to get the trader to rectify or stump up money to compensate. Not always a gaurantee of either even with a court order.

 

I am fully aware that the motor is electrical Jeep, I use to be a after sales customer advisor at a Fiat dealership and happen to have a Punto HGT myself. I also know that the motor is not a wear and tear item and I consider that it should certainly last more than 8/9 years. I never said that there is a 'warranty' under SOGA either where it does actually 'assumes a fault to be present at the point of sale which develops within the first 6 months of ownership'. I can't recall an age limit being specified. I also havn't yet advised the OP to take legal proceedings... Yet. If you re-read my post (#2), you will in fact see that I have suggested that the OP contacts the trader in a 'friendly way' and give him the opportunity to rectify the fault. Also I will say that I would consider that a price tag on a 02/03 Punto of £3,000 would suggest that it is farly hi-spec with low mileage and in good condition. It may help if the OP confirms how the car was advertised. Never the less, the fact remains that the defect has occured 3 weeks after purchase so the SOGA will certainly apply. One thing I will agree with you on is that taking the matter to court is a last option due to the inevitable long and expensive process it is which is why I advised the OP to try the friendly approach first.

 

What I don't appreciate however, is some new member jumping in and start criticizing more experienced CAGGERs when they are in fact giving practical advice. As a matter of interest, what do you advise the OP to do after paying £3,000 for a car which has developed an expensive defect within 3 weeks of purchase?

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Jeepstar]

What I don't appreciate however, is some new member jumping in and start criticizing more experienced CAGGERs when they are in fact giving practical advice. As a matter of interest, what do you advise the OP to do after paying £3,000 for a car which has developed an expensive defect within 3 weeks of purchase?

 

Length of time you or I have been members is irrelevant. Giving the proper and the most practical advice is far more important.

 

My advice was given in my original post on this thread. Approach the seller politely, ask him if you went halves on a used part and for him to fit it.

 

Now you state you used to work for fiat and that by your reckoning that motor should last longer than 9 years. OK thats great, the next fiat I have with power steering failure at 6 years I trust you will advise me who at fiat are willing to pay for repair. Your argument there means the manufacturer is liable. Now you and I both know that is never going to happen.

 

heliosuk Re: Used car breakdown after 3 weeks

Jeepster, the engineering sign off life for the components of the steering system on most european manufactuers cars is 150,000 miles or 10 years and this is NOT whichever occurs first. It's based on general calculations and my car has in excess of 200,000 miles, one owner and less than 10 years old.

 

No offense but that is laughable. You are saying a track rod end or a steering drumstick should last that? Your average modern car is built to a price. and any manufacturer based warranty will end at a maximum of the 7 years Hyundai offer or lifetime with vauxhall if you own it from new- less with most manufacturers. You will also find in their terms and conditions items fall off the warranty cover as each year progresses.Even with these extended manufacturer warranties after 5 years, by and large the only components covered are the engine and gearbox..

 

Now we all agree the seller has treated the OP appalingly. But it is no good giving false hope. Far better to suggest a compromise where he gets back on the road with the minimum of expenditure.

[sailor sam]

If you don't mind Jeepstar, I will continue to disagree with you. As far as I am aware, the power steering system is not a typical failure issue on the Punto mk 2 series, and certainly not the motor itself. In my own car for example, (2000 HGT) the system works fine including the 'City' function. Also, (as I pointed out in my previous post) the OPs car at £3k, ought to be in good condition/low mileage and I am interested to know how it was described. But after only 3 weeks of ownership, the OP should certainly not be paying out for this kind of defect. So my advice to the OP stands; contact the seller in a polite way to see what (if anything) he is prepared to do. Depending on the outcome of that, will determine my next advice but I certainly do not think that any contribution should be made by the OP. Had the defect of occured say after 3 months, then I certainly would be agreeing with your advice.

 

Can I point out that here on CAG, we have certain members who have experience in many different aspects of everyday life-problems. Here, in the motoring 'department' is no exception and there are at least 4 good, well placed members who have had a few successes over the last few years assiting those with problems. Those members sometimes come together and share their different specialized fields of experience to assist thoes with more complicated issues. These are typically nearly always the result of 'rogue traders' who give the second hand car industry a bad name. It is for that reason the like of me and my fellow mentioned members will pull out all the stops to try and combat these traders by steering the people who they have 'stung' into the right direction. Obviously there is always consumer direct/trading standards who will confirm what the SOGA provides and when it should be used. In this case, when someone like you (who is clearly batting for the second hand car dealer) popps up and starts contradicting the advice being given, I will simply direct the relevant person to trading standards where the advice can be qualified or not. SOGA would not be needed if it wern't for these rogue traders, but while it does exist, it can (and should) be used as a last resort and in extreme cases and to be honest, if it helps put these people out of business, then job done in my book.

 

Now if you don't mind, I don't want to waste anymore of my time arguing with you as it serves no purpose to the OP and un-necessarily lengthens the thread.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[mr_spine]

Hello. OP here. I'll stick to the original issue of the post...

 

The dealer said his warranty only covers engine and clutch issues. The car has done 28297 miles. Since purchase it has done roughly 200 miles. What should I do next? It was advertised as 'perfect condition".

 

It was all pretty friendly, but he basically said he can't do anything. I'm aware and experienced with the usual engine and clutch issues, but the steering issue is new to me. As far as I'm concerned, my mum bought a 100% working vehicle (according to the advert), with fairly low mileage.

Edited May 10, 2011 by mr_spine

[sailor sam]

Ok, you now need to put it in writing so I suggest the following letter;

 

Dear sirs

 

Re: (VEHICLE MAKE/MODEL)

VRM: (VEHICLE REG)

 

I refer to the above mentioned vehicle which I purchased from you as advertised as being in 'perfect condition' on (DATE). I have reported to you that the vehicle has the following fault on (DATE);

 

'Power steering'/motor failure.

 

Obviously I would of not of considered that the car (as being described as 'perfect' and having only completed 28297 miles) would become defective in such a short period of time after purchase.

 

I therefore formally request that you either carry out a full, effective and lasting repair, a like for like replacement or offer a full refund in which I will hand the car back. I make this request under the sale of goods act 1979.

 

Please indicate your intentions within 14 days from the date of this letter to avoid the necessity of me considering legal proceedings.

 

Please note that all further communication should be done in writing although I will discuss arrangements to book the car in for the work to be carried out.

 

I very much look forward to your response within the time given.

 

Yours ect ect

 

Send by recorded delivery and come back when you get a response or after 14 days if you don't. In addition, I would be checking the MOT history to varify the mileage is correct. it seems extremely low to me for the age.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[mr_spine]

Thanks for the reply and letter template. Should I go ahead and repair the car myself?

 

The mileage has been conformed via the MOT history.

[sailor sam]

Thanks for the reply and letter template. Should I go ahead and repair the car myself?

 

The mileage has been conformed via the MOT history.

 

The seller should have the opportunity to inspect and rectify. You may need to prove that you have given this or he can argue that he could of mitigated his losses by carrying out the repairs himself to save labour costs so if you carry out/arrange the repairs yourself before allowing him the opportinity, you provide him with a defense. If the car is not driveable, you could a) ask him to provide a courtesy car (assuming he agress to repair) or b) if he refuses, you could hire a car. Although the seller is not obliged to do/agree to either, you can claim 'consiquential losses' (such as car hire ect) should you have to take the matter to court. If after the time given expires you get no response, you have the option then to either get the car repaired and claim back the cost from the seller or reject the car completely and claim for a full refund, both of which will no doubt require you to persue the matter through court which will no doubt be a lengthy (and intitially costly) process.

 

As a matter of interest, what kind of service history has the car got and which version is it?

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Edited May 10, 2011 by sailor sam

[Jeepstar]

I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me sam. But as for length of time anyone has been a member is irrelevant. Frankly you are giving bum advice in your answers. eg a steering pump should last 10 years- I worked for Fiat. As I asked before will fiat supply this part FOC to the OP? Not bloody likely.

 

OP my advice still stands, source a used part and ask if he will go halves and fit for free.You can make a lot of noise or even take it further. But to me that sounds a lot of stress for a no guarantee solution.

 

Just as an afterthought. Try a new battery in it and check the charging. Low battery power can also give this fault.

 

Good luck OP!

[sailor sam]

Oh so you now 'worked for Fiat' eh? Pray tell then why you are advising that the OP suggests that the seller sorces a 'used part' to effect the repair and 'fits it for free'? IF you had worked for Fiat, you would know that the mk 2 Punto steering motor cannot be replaced by itself. I have consulted a collegue technician of mine who tells me that it is the steering column itself which comes as a complete unit. Also, as it is a fully electrical system, it will need the codes read from the ECU which will no doubt have to be done at a main dealer. It maybe the case that there is a loose connection somewhere and not a failed unit at all but only a visit to a dealer will be able to determine this where a simple repair may solve it. The unusual and worse case scenario is it could be the motor posistion torque sensors which cannot be replaced without replacing the column and being as you worked for Fiat, you will know that only a new one can be reliable enough and that it will need calbrating. As I have previously stated, these failures are rare and the column should last for the life span of the car. So not so bum advice from me, me thinks Jeepstar!

 

To the OP; you could suggest that the seller arranges/authorizes you to have the ECU codes checked at a Fiat dealer. It may be the case that it isn't a major repair after all.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[heliosuk]

No offense but that is laughable. You are saying a track rod end or a steering drumstick should last that? Your average modern car is built to a price. and any manufacturer based warranty will end at a maximum of the 7 years Hyundai offer or lifetime with vauxhall if you own it from new- less with most manufacturers. You will also find in their terms and conditions items fall off the warranty cover as each year progresses.Even with these extended manufacturer warranties after 5 years, by and large the only components covered are the engine and gearbox..

 

I would say the laugh is on you jeepster. You obviously have no idea as to how a vehicle is engineered today. Just because a manufactuers warranty expires after say 5 years or even 60,000 miles does not mean they will not cover it at a higher mileage and age. This has been proven many times on this site. The reason why they have pre determined limits is down to the safety factor they bring in against being liable for the cost of the failure, along with known market operating conditions.

 

You will see in the next few years warranties extending to 5 years and unlimited mileage provided the car has a full verifiable service history and this is purely down to advances in engineering and manufacturing techniques.

 

As regards using a used part and asking for a contribution after just 3 weeks................that's the laughable piece.

 

The OP should follow sailors and dragons advice and it is not false hope at all. It is his/her statutory rights and if they or the OP needs "qualified" chassis engineering technical back up on steering systems, it's available.

Edited May 10, 2011 by heliosuk
Spelling error.

[Jeepstar]

No Sam you claimed you worked for fiat. I used your own post as an example. Again substantiate your statement, will Fiat pay for the part at 8 years old? I also know the pump is part of the column- incidentally available on ebay at £178.

 

Helios show one case of a manufacturer paying for a similar part at 8 years old. Put up or shut up.

[sailor sam]

No Sam you claimed you worked for fiat. I used your own post as an example. Again substantiate your statement, will Fiat pay for the part at 8 years old? I also know the pump is part of the column- incidentally available on ebay at £178.

 

Helios show one case of a manufacturer paying for a similar part at 8 years old. Put up or shut up.

 

Ok, fair enough I may of miss-understood you there. BUT my point stands that it may not be a component failure but it will need an ECU code check carried out to determine which the seller should arrange. As for Fiat paying, well you may be surprised to learn that they may in fact consider assistance if the car has an up to date service history especially when the mileage is this low. But at the end of the day, the buck stops with the seller on this one. Whether one can be obtained off ebay is one thing, but fitting it correctly is another. Let the OP first establish that in fact it does require a complete new column as I have learned it is unlikely.

 

On a seperate issue, I still think that you should change your 'know it all' attitude and think twice about criticizing the regular CAGGERS on here. You certainly will find it hard to become one of 'the team' if you don't.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Edited May 10, 2011 by sailor sam

[heliosuk]

I know of many cases where this has happened. One instance that springs to mind was an 80,000 mile Audi with a full history at 7 years old and they paid for the HP diesel injector pump. I've seen a 450,000 mile V8 Merc have the heads replaced, though that was quite a few years ago.

 

Vauxhall seem to be paying for broken cams at the moment. I've seen Land Rover pay for a new engine at 5 years old. Most of what was the Ford group will cover certain ball joints.

 

One thing none of them do, even with their own dealers, is pay for any repairs on a used car that has been sold within one month of sale as it is deemed that the dealer should have picked it up and is liable.

 

If there is a good case put then the manufactuers are pretty good with this stuff, one thing they don't like is independant used car dealers who try to wriggle out of their responsibilities.

 

Frankly, if what has happened to the OP is the way you would deal with the problem, just adds fuel to the fire that the used car industry needs regulating and you and the dealer that the OP is struggling with is the perfect justification for it!!

[Jeepstar]

Typing things doesn't make it true helios. Show a case where these parts have been supplied in an 8 year old car. I am not saying the trader is right on this occasion. As I said before I would of done far more had he been my customer. BUT telling him he has all these wonderful rights doesn't make them true and definately doesn't get his car back on the road.

 

The case of the vauxhall cams are only being paid as proof has been made of a manufacturing/design flaw. It is by and large affecting cars of less than 5 years old and is also a part which I previously said would be covered by any warranty or SOGA right no question. Also they are making it difficult that the car must have FSH using OEM parts.

[heliosuk]

No it doesn't make it true but one has to take posts on face value. What I can tell you though is that these are all cases that have been documented, in all of these cases I have either negotiated them or authorised them. Telling the OP he has these rights is fact, not fiction.

 

It's quite simple in this case which you seem to have a problem with.

 

Wear and tear items are items where the supplier and or dealer has no control over their use. This is generally deemed to be high friction items such as clutch PLATES, brake pads, wipers.

 

Mechanical items such as the steering gear assembly which includes track rod ends and ball joints within the steering gear, pumps and pipes have never ever in my 30 years been considered wear and tear and never will be. It is not a service item changeable at any pre determined mileage or age. It is there for the anticipated life of the vehicle which is 10 years or 150,000 miles.

 

SOGA is not clear cut and does take into account age, mileage and price, however it also into account the time since sale and on the balance of probabilities, with a failure of this nature in the time it has happened, it's a no brainer unless of course the dealer can show categorically he expected the system to fail within a month and that the price of the car reflected this.

 

I sincerely hope you as a used car dealer would have handled things differently, in fact I would expect you now to do even more given what you have posted and hopefully learnt.

 

Used car dealers need to up their act and realise that nowadays if you sell rubbish, try to pull a fast one or try to get out of legal and moral responsibilities then increasingly it will backfire.