#Utilities : Dispute with ex-flatmate over outstanding gas/elec bill, advice needed

[lwwatson]

Hi,

 

I am currently in a dispute with my ex-flatmate over our gas and electricity bill and was wondering if there is anyone that would be able to help me out. I'll try to explain as best I can and hopefully someone can help me understand my position

 

I've just moved out a flat which I've been staying in for four months, and my flatmate has informed me there are outstanding gas and electricity bills to pay. There was a monthly direct debit set up for £60 a month (between 3 people) and the last two months I contributed £40 extra each month as I was made aware the bill was likely to be higher due to winter etc. Now that I have left the flat, she has taken final readings and informed me I still owe £150 to close off the account. By my reckoning, this would mean I'd have paid £310 for gas and electricity over a 4 month period, which means the overall bill for this time would be around £930, which seems excessive for a flat, even through the cold weather.

 

I met up with her yesterday and she brought a bill, which I wasn't clear about how to read it, and she wouldn't allow me to copy it so I took some notes of the figures to try and work things out.

 

She gave me these figures first of all, which are the amounts for certain periods

 

13/11-31/1- £490.56

1/2-8/2- £25.93

8/2-24/2- £57.63

22/2-31/3- £92.47

 

which totals £666.59 for this period (it should be noted I didn't move in until the end of November). I'm pretty sure these are meter readings for these periods. She says that these figures do not include the direct debit payments and this is one point where I'm unclear. Surely a meter reading would show the overall usage and would not automatically deduct the direct debit amount, or would it?

 

The second set of figures I took from the bill were a list of payments made to the account which were:

 

7th March- £180

1st April- £177.33

1st April- £249.26

 

I believe these were the payments made to close off the account. Am I right in saying that these payments could be covering outstanding amounts from before I moved in, and thus should not be used as proof?

 

I'm in a complete muddle over it all as it's the first flat I've rented and I am getting the impression she is trying to do me out of money, I'm just wondering if anyone could clarify things for me, or inform me of what I need to see to work out the exact figure I owe. The company is Scottish Power if that's any help as well.

 

Thanks for reading, Luke

[citizenB]

Luke, whose name was account in ?

 

If your ex flatmate wants you to contribute to the final readings then you should be provided with a copy of the bill.

 

I will flag your query for the site team in order to obtain more advice for you.

[lwwatson]

Much appreciated. Bills are in her name, the problem relates to her withholding my deposit until this is sorted out. The deposit is £320 and until this is resolved, I'm not getting any of it back.

[caro]

I agree that you must insist on having a copy of the bill so you can get someone to check it for you. The figures you give may be the bill totals, or meter usage, so you need more info. The payments don't seem to tie up with the bills, so it's important you know what you're meant to be paying for.

 

Did you have a lease or tenancy agreement which states what you should pay for utilities?

 

If it comes to it you could start a court claim to get your deposit back.

 

Who does the flat belong to - your flatmate or is she subletting?

[caro]

I'm moving this to the lettings section as it's not a problem with the utility company.

[lwwatson]

I was subletting, the person the issue is with was already renting the place from the landlord when I moved in and I've never met or had to deal with the landlord whatsoever. I asked for a copy of the bill that she brought along with her but she refused as it has her details on it (I don't know what she expected me to do with it since the address was the same one I was on, and the account is apparently closed now). How often should she receive bills? And will Scottish Power be able to provide bills going back say 6 months, to cover the period I was in the accommodation that will clearly state the usage within certain dates, and not just the figures paid?

 

I didn't have a specific leasing agreement, I'd rather naively paid all rent etc in cash although I do have a sheet of paper signed by her confirming the amount of the deposit and when it was paid, but there is no specific agreement in place about bills etc.

 

Another question since this is now in the letting section, another dispute I am having is regards money the landlord has taken off for damages, lack of cleaning etc since the tenancy started. She seems to think the total of £180 deducted should be split evenly between the 3 of us, although I've been in the accommodation 4 months compared with over a year for them. None of the damage can be attributed directly to me, as she has already stated to me, and I accept some collective responsibility as I've been there for 4 months but surely in legal terms, the length of time would come into consideration in a dispute, is that correct?

[Surfer01]

If she took a deposit from you she would be acting as a LL and the deposit should have been secured. If this is not done I think you can claim back three times the original deposit but hopefully someone will come along to verify this.

[caro]

I'm wondering if she even had the right to sublet. http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pdf/138289.pdf

 

As far as I can see the TDS scheme only covers assured leasehold tenancies which I don't believe that this was.

 

If she's worried about private details ask her for a copy with her private info blanked out, but leaving all the relevant info. If she's not prepared to do that, TBH, without a specific agreement, I'd be inclined to tell her to take a running jump. I think she's trying to pull a fast one.

 

It might be worth seeing a solicitor if you can find one that does a free half hour initial consultation, or alternatively you could send her a preliminary letter telling her that if she doesn't pay what she owes you in 14 days you will be considering court action and will be claiming your costs and interest. I have a funny feeling that she won't want to go to court.

[lwwatson]

Thanks, I'm going to send her an email now stating that I don't have enough information to work out how much I should be paying for gas and electricity and that I require copies of the gas and electricity bills from before the period I moved in, in order to work out how much I am due altogether. I may need to try and find a solicitor that does free consultations to let me know where I stand, would they send a letter free of charge? I assume they probably would charge to send something out

 

In terms of meter readings, I've never taken one before, what do they look like if that's not a daft question? Is it a monetary figure so ie if you look at it on Monday it could say £20, then on Friday it says £60 meaning you've used £40 in between, or is it a different type of figure and the difference between two points can be worked out by looking at the unit cost of gas and electricity?

[Ed999]

The following advice is applicable to you only if the rented premises are entirely within England and Wales, and only if you were granted a shorthold tenancy (under which you [and your spouse/partner/children if any] had exclusive use of at least a bedroom, a kitchen and a bathroom, none of which were shared with another tenant nor with the landlord) and were over 18 years of age when the tenancy was granted.

 

 

The TDS scheme applies only to shorthold tenancies; but ALL verbal tenancies are automatically shorthold tenancies, because the only other type of tenancy has to be granted in writing.

 

Read these FAQs about the TDS (Tenancy Deposit Scheme), under which you might be entitled to sue for compensation -

 

- Tenancy Deposit Scheme

 

- Tenancy Deposit Protection - First High Court Decision

 

- TDS eligibility, implication of breach and legal questions answered

 

 

Also read the FAQ about what deductions the landlord can lawfully make from the deposit -

 

- Unfair deposit deductions

 

 

 

Where you had no tenancy agreement, your immediate landlord will have difficulty establishing that you had agreed to pay extra for utility bills, if you believe that the agreement was that it was all-inclusive in the rent you were paying.

 

But under no circumstances would I contribute any payment for utility bills until I had been given a photocopy of all the relevent utility bills.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Ed999

[raydetinu]

Agree you need the bills to work anything out ask her to work it out and ask to show you how she did it to come with her costs.

on the defects, if they are valid?, you should of course pro-rata it for your shorter stay.

[Aviva]

In terms of meter readings, I've never taken one before, what do they look like if that's not a daft question? Is it a monetary figure so ie if you look at it on Monday it could say £20, then on Friday it says £60 meaning you've used £40 in between, or is it a different type of figure and the difference between two points can be worked out by looking at the unit cost of gas and electricity?

 

It's the latter. The former wouldn't work as every meter would have to be recalibrated everytime there was a change in the price so that the cost could be worked correctly.

 

Utility bills usually have the balance amount carried over from last period (either credit, debt or nil balance), the amount you have been charged for the current period and any payments received. They also should show how the amount you have been charged has been arrived at - amount of units used at what cost.

[lwwatson]

Thank you, that makes sense. I emailed her the other day and received a response earlier today, and have just replied. I think my next step is to go to the Citizens Advice Bureau tomorrow, and see where to take it from there

 

Hey,

 

I've looked over the figures from the gas and electricity bill and got a couple of others to look over it and they have both agreed that there is not enough information to work out how much I owe for gas and electricity for the duration of my stay. In order to do this, I'd need to receive copies of statements going back to just before I moved into the flat, particularly of the second page that shows the exact usage, as the amounts that have been paid over the period are not a clear indicator of the usage. If you are uncomfortable with me having your details, then it doesn't bother me if you wish to blank out any personal details that are on the bills, but I do need copies of them. I spoke to Scottish Power on the phone, and they have advised that they are able to provide copy statements going back this period. Until I am able to view these bills, it's not possible to settle the issue as I don't have enough information at present given the bill shown is only for the last 1/2 months. It is only reasonable that if I am to pay a large figure to settle any outstanding debt related to the gas and electricity bills, that I have full and accurate information at my disposal.

 

In terms of meter readings, you obviously took one's at the beginning of April once we'd all moved out, and they would be helpful, as would the figures from a meter reading as close as possible to when I moved in, either before or after the exact date, if this is possible,

 

Luke

 

Luke,

 

I am slightly confused. I have given you all relevant information from the gas/electricity readings/payments dated:

13/11/10 to 31/3/11 there is nothing else to give you. I really do not understand how you, your mother or father cannot see from the information given that you are due "X" amount (i am at work and cannot remember the exact figure that I had worked out). The complete breakdown of costings is there in black and white from the 13/11 - 31/11.

 

Scottish power will not have given out details/information to anyone other than the account holder - myself. This is merely dragging the whole situation on. I showed you the details that I have access to during our meeting.

 

There really is no further information that you will get other than what you already have at your disposal. You do not need actual readings - the bill which was shown to you stated that an actual reading was taken and the final closing balance.

 

This needs to be settled by the end of this week as I have other more important matters to deal with regarding my new flat.

 

Kim

 

Kim,

 

The bill you showed me only showed payments made during March and April, and did not include costing information going back as far as the period when I moved in. The amounts paid are not relevant to how much I owe, it is the figures relating to usage during my period in the flat, which can only be viewed if I see bills covering the time I stayed. All I have to go on is various payments that have been made in March and April and a selection of figures that you gave me that may or may not be relevant.

 

Obviously Scottish Power would not give me account information,- that isn’t why I contacted them. It was merely to find out if they can provide bills going back the period I require, which they can, but obviously this has to be done through yourself. It is perfectly reasonable that I should expect to be provided with copies of the bills in order that I can look over them and work out how much I owe over my time in the flat. It isn’t acceptable that I have to go on one bill that only covers a small period, and a list of figures that have been given to me that as I say,may or may not be relevant.

 

I would like to resolve this as soon as possible also but as I stated in the last message, until I receive copies of the bills it is not possible to do so

 

Luke

 

Is there anything else I should take from this at this point? She says she wants to resolve it as soon as possible but she's not being very open if she wishes to do so. Thanks for reading

[raydetinu]

Nope thats what you need and thats what a court would need as well.

She needs to back up what she is asking for and be open and let you check it with all the relevant information. You should not just have to take her word for it.

[Ed999]

Beware: the obvious reason for seeking to withhold the actual documents is where they do not support the amount demanded.

[caro]

Quite agree ed. If she had nothing to hide she wouldn't have a problem. Make sure you keep copies of all documentation.

[lwwatson]

OK, so she's handed me over bills now but the issue is still not sorted. She is claiming the direct debits are over and above the actual amounts which just doesn't seem correct to me

 

I have online prints from her which show that the "summary of my bill charges" for gas and electricity from these periods is:

 

ELECTRICITY

 

13/11-31/3- £121.36

1/2-6/2- £7.76

7/2-22/2- £18.53

23/2-31/3- £34.80

 

GAS

 

13/11-31/1- £372.92

1/2-6/2- 18.17

7/2-22/2- £39.10

23/2-31/3- £57.63

 

We went through these figures (taking off the relevant amounts for the time in November I wasn't there) and it comes to around £600 for the period I was there. She says that these figures do not include the £60 monthly direct debit that we paid, and that these are over and above. I'm not clear on this but the way they read to me is that they are overall amounts and that the D/D money is not taken off automatically but I'm really not sure. The company is Scottish Power

 

She also gave me a printout of a sheet that says Bill & Payment History and this shows as follows:

 

 
Date:       Bills/Charges     Payments     Balance

5/4/11                        £180        £180.04 in credit
4/4/11      £92.43 (actual)               £0.04 in credit
1/4/11                        £249.26     £92.47 in credit
1/4/11                        £177.33     £156.79 in debit
7/3/11                        £180.00     £334.12 in debit
24/2/11     £57.63 (actual)               £514.12 in debit
8/2/11      £25.93 (actual)               £456.49 in debit
7/2/11                        £60.00      £430.56 in debit

There's a gap in the info (page she ain't given me) here then it goes on

5/1/11                        £60.00      £3.72 in credit
6/12/10                       £60.00      £56.28 in debit
12/11/10    £178.02 (estimate)            £116.28 in debit

 

If there's any other info required then I can give it but my main question is whether the direct debits are charged separately from the other amounts, as this is what's making a huge difference to how much money I owe (or don't as the case may be)

 

Thanks for your help

[stu007]

Hi Iwwatson

 

Just looked you need toget the full bill to properly calculate your costs the summary bill is of no good to you as the full bill will show all direct debt payments payments taken off and it will also show u the amount for each unit of fuel used.

 

What I do find strange is that this person is saying your amount owed is over and above the direct debts, you point out that these direct debt payments are as stated by her are £60 monthly so looking at the sumarry under payments the dates, 7/12/11, 5/1/11, 6/12/10 do seem suspicoiusly like said direct debt payments.

 

I was a ScottishPower customer myself and can confirm that there bill would show the direct debt payments either as an deduction on the bill or as a credit on the bill.

 

All this individual needs to do to resolve your issue is give the the proper copies of the bills you have request not summarry bills and if they really want to confirm these direct debt payments well there bank statement showing said amounts going out would match those direct debt dates on the utility bills simple.

[lwwatson]

I've sent her this email after reviewing all the information and I think I've made myself clear enough, it means I owe £41 and not the whopping £150 that she has claimed

 

Hi,

 

I’ve looked over the information and I think I can now be clear over what is due etc, I will explain my workings so we can sort this out. This is the Bill and Payment History as taken from the printouts you gave me covering my period of residence. Obviously the top £180 relates to your new flat, and the bottom £178.02 is before I’d moved in so they can be discounted. This should be the same as your online account so you can double check I’ve got all the figures correct. I've uploaded it to imageshack so I hope it's clear enough to read

 

SAME IMAGE AS BEFORE WITH GAPS FILLED IN

 

The Bills/Charges side contains the information relating to what I owe. As we worked out earlier the total of £92.43, £57.63, £25.93 and £494.28 taking away the £67 for the 11 days I was not in the premises comes to £603. This is the total amount owed between the 3 of us for the time I was in the flat, including the direct debits.

 

This can be shown by balancing it against the Payments figures

 

£249.26 + £177.33 + £180 + £60 + £60 + £60= £786.59

 

Taking away the £116.28 that was in debit on the account when I arrived and the £67 from the 11 days I was not in the premises, this also totals £603.

 

Over the course, this means I am due to pay one third of £603, which is £201, of which £160 has been paid already through 4x £20 D/D’s and 2x £40 additional payments, meaning I am due £41 to the cover my share of the bill. Adding this to the agreed £40 deduction for damages etc, I am due back £239 from my original £320 deposit and it would be great if this could be paid into my bank account as soon as you get a chance

 

Edited April 18, 2011 by lwwatson

[caro]

I'm with Scottish Power so my online account looks the same.

 

What seems odd is that where there's a gap which is only the space of a month, it looks as it there must have been a bill for £434.28 (£430.56 owed in February and the credit of £3.72 has been used making £434.28). It could have been more if an extra payment was made in the time that there's a gap in the bills but she hasn't given you any proof of that. She can very easily get a copy of the missing page online.

 

The payments including the direct debits have most definitely come off the balance.

 

I notice the first bill of £178.02 was estimated and the big bill is an actual reading so it's quite possible that money was owed before you moved in, so I think you're right that some of the bill is most likely from before you moved in.

 

As I see it you've paid 4x20 + 2x40 = £160

 

It looks as though the direct debit wasn't enough to cover the winter bills so extra payments probably had to be paid. You can see that at one time over £500 was owing so SP would have wanted more but the payments do appear to have been paid.

 

You need to look at what the bills were in the column next to the date and add them up along with the last balance. Then add up all the payments including the direct debits and take those off the bills. That will give you the new balance owing.

 

If you look at the actual readings for 8th and 24th Feb, the bill came out at £57.63 for 16 days, which works out at just under £3.61 a day, which is £1.20 each. If you were there for 160 days a fair share might be £1.20 x 120 days (4 months) which works out at £144.

 

I can't see why the figures you've shown, with just one month's figures missing needs to go over 3 pages, or why they shouldn't fit on 1.

 

Take a look at the links Ed provided above about the TDS scheme and find out about your rights regarding the deposit.. It's up to you if you want to pay more but I think you've paid your share and need to tell you ex-flatmate that you want your deposit back. You could even email her the links so that she'll see that you know your rights and it lets her know what her responsibilities are.

[lwwatson]

Thanks for your advice, I'll await her reply to the email tomorrow and take it from there. As the correct figure based on those amounts is me owing £41 I am quite happy to settle on that rather than spend more time on it, that's over £100 less than what she originally asked for so I'll be fairly pleased. As you say though, if she kicks up a fuss here or continues to argue then I may have to mention the TDS scheme and look into further action. I think my email has explained things well enough though in a polite way that she should be able to understand and have no comeback too

[caro]

Yes. It's always a good idea to keep everything in writing.

[Ed999]

I need to emphasise one point, which is that the Tenancy Deposit Scheme only applies if you had a tenancy. Don't try suing for breach of the scheme if you only had a licence.

 

The distinction between a tenancy and a mere licence is whether you are granted exclusive use of essential living accomodation, including a bedroom, kitchen and bathroom; i.e. whether the accomodation is self-contained. If you are sharing any of those facilities - sleeping, eating or washing - with another tenant, or with the landlord, then you do NOT have a tenancy, but are merely a lodger.

 

A shared house will almost never amount to a tenancy. It's a single dwelling occupied by more than one family, each of whom occupies only part of the dwelling and pays rent in respect of only part. The accommodation is not self-contained, so a tenancy cannot exist.

 

Statements to the contrary in your letting contract are irrelevent. The law is not optional, so you cannot agree privately with a landlord that the law will not apply.