falling foul of the 14 day timescale rip off

[mhill716600]

Hi Every one,

 

Just a quick note to see if i am right,

 

I received a ticket for not parking entirely in a parking bay markings of which i am happy to pay,

 

i recieved this ticket on the 02nd March 2011 at 10:31:11 i worked out that as long as i paid the fine by the 16th May 2011 i would only have to pay the £25.00?

 

When i called to pay the fine on the 16th i was told i was one day too late and the clerk said i would have to pay £50.00

 

when i asked why she said you include the first day ie 02nd and add 13 day which is the 15th i then explained that they had not given me the full 14 days as they way i see it 02nd March 10:31:11 to the 3rd MARCH 10:31:11 is 1 day ( 24 hours ) this would give me uo to 10:31:11 on the 16th to pay, she then told me that they do not use the time only the date.

 

I said it does not explain this on the ticket and that the wording is very misleading her answer was yes i know most people have this problem.

 

i then asked why if they know it causes most people problems why dont they amend the tickets to show the exact date the fine must be paid. ie

 

to recieve your discount of 50% this fine must be paid by "DATE"

 

or if you pay this fine by "DATE" you fine will be reduced by 50%

 

She then told me well how do you think we make more money.

 

I have appealed against the £50.00 charge but as yet not recieved a reply.

 

Has any one got any suggestions

 

Regards

 

MH

[BankFodder]

Who issued the ticket?

[asmodeus]

Is this a private parking ticket - sounds very much like it if the 'clerk' said this although the very low amount (£25.00) suggests council as PPC's generally try for a bigger rip off

 

Full details required to advise a suitable course of action (or inaction if PPC)

[BankFodder]

another person who insists on doing this kind of business on the telephone and who doesn't record calls. If you had a recording of the admission that yes many people have the same problem, this would have been the killer argument and you can sit have successfully have appealed.

 

You should still have a chance but it won't be as easy. I agree with you on your reading of the timescales. It is clear that although the ticket might have been issued at 1030, it would not actually have been served until the time you saw when you return to your car. This might have been much later – and for many people it would be. On the basis of what they are saying, they could have issued a ticket at 5:00 PM and expected that day to count.

 

I suggest very strongly that you make a detailed note of the telephone conversation that you had – particularly referring to the statement that was made by the council employee that many people have this problem.it may be interesting to do a Freedom of Information Act enquiry to find out exactly how many people do appeal on the basis of a misunderstanding of the time period.

 

I would suggest that if the appeal that you have made so far does not work, that you mount a further appeal – because I think you are allowed to go one up higher to the adjudicator. At the same time you make a Freedom of Information Act enquiry to find out how many appeals they have had on the basis of a misunderstanding of the 14 day limit for discounts. I would also begin a complaint to the local authority ombudsman. The local authority ombudsman process is something that is very underused – but I can promise you that the Council don't like it, and is likely to produce interesting results – not least an attempt to settle the matter with you.

 

Look at the Liverpool Council website and they should be information there about Freedom of Information as well as the process for going to the local authority ombudsman. Although you are bound to say very much money, there is no reason why they should have it and I think it would be an interesting exercise and also very satisfying for you if you succeeded.

[BankFodder]

if you intend to deal with any more of this on the telephone – whether you intend to do any kind of business on the telephone with any company, any council, any bank, any retailer, – record your calls. You will regret it if you don't

[diskmandave]

£50/£25 - 50% discount - 14 days discount period...

 

Sounds more like a Council ticket at the Lower Contravention rate to me rather than a PPC.

 

Parked outside bay markings are at the Lower Contravention rate.

Best if the OP confirms.

[Jamberson]

I have appealed against the £50.00 charge but as yet not recieved a reply.

 

Then there is nothing more you can do until you get a written reply. I expect they will reinstate the discount, but if they do not, let us know.

 

Also, can you scan or quote the exact wording on the PCN about payment dates. This could possibly invalidate the PCN!

[Coupon]

When i called to pay the fine

 

MH

 

 

 

I do not understand why so many people just want to pay the fine? I am assuming this is a real Council ticket rather than a bogus PCN from a private company?

 

I know you have now put in your first informal appeal but only because you couldn't pay the lower amount. Seems strange logic when you can usually appeal all the way to the adjudicator and pay nothing at all. You only risk possibly being told in due course to pay the full (non-discounted) fine by the adjudicator in the unusual event of you losing. So why on earth more people don't just press on with appeals is a constant surprise to me.

 

I know a lot of people are 'too busy' but I reckon the Councils should work for their ill-gotten gains in parking income! I am a busy Mum of 4 with an OH and a full-time job (my little bit of spare time is spent on forums!) but I would still always appeal any Council PCN all the way to an adjudicator - whatever the circumstances, even if seemingly caught bang to rights.

 

Post back when the Council reject your informal appeal. No point paying it too hastily.

 

If it is a real Council tickets, can you show us pics of the PCN front and back please (just blank out car reg and PCN number).

[mhill716600]

Sorry i cannot send a copy as my scanner is not working at the moment but here are the details,

 

Date of contravention 02/03/2011

Time of contraventio 10:31:11

Location Moorfields - l2

Vehicle reg ********

Vehicle Colour *******

Tax disc expiry *******

Observed from 10:30:28 to 10:31:11

 

A penalty of£50 is now payable and must be paid not later than the last day of the period od 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN was served.

 

The penalty charge will be reduced by a discount of 50% to £25.00 if it is paid not later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which this PCN was served.

 

there is no metion that the times of the offence are not included in the 14 days and as in my 1st post as my ticket was served at 10:31:11 this is when the clock should start otherwise they are saying that the ticket might as well been printed at 12.01 that morning. ie they are only giving me 13 days and 13 hours and 29 minutes, as far as i am concerned a day 1s 24 hours long.

 

Regards

 

MH

[Coupon]

You are 100% not going to win that argument at adjudication so please forget it!

 

You posted the timing on the PCN yourself and you still think they are wrong?

 

'14 days beginning with the date on which this PCN was served.'

 

Can you take a pic with a digital camera or phone, of the PCN, front and back, all the small print and show us a pic of the bay lines at signs where you parked. This is important information.

 

In the meantime, when do you think the 28 day period is up to make your reps? Just checking that you have your eye on the ball as far as dates are concerned now!

 

And I would email the Council in the morning for a copy of the Traffic Order for that street or car park. They have to provide it to any interested person (do not mention your PCN at all, asking for the Order is a request for info, not an appeal so is separate). It's important to ask for it IMHO as the Order may not even make 'parking outside of bay lines' a contravention...

[mhill716600]

They way i see it the 14 day period was up at 10:31:11 on the 16th March 2011, the 28 day period will be up at 10:31:11 on the 30th March 2011.

 

I use the the reason that 1 day equals 24 hours, so 24 hours from the time the ticket was issued would be 10:31:11 on the 03rd March 2011 And so on.

 

I called the council to pay the fine on the 16th at 8.30 (i have proof of this call) and was told that i was a day late?

 

I am going to fight this, as i see that the wording on the ticket is poorly written and very confusing.

 

would a court disagree that a day is 24 hours long? i would like them to explain their reason behined it if they did.

 

Cheers

 

MH

 

My argument is that i have not been given the right time to pay.

[Jamberson]

I use the the reason that 1 day equals 24 hours, so 24 hours from the time the ticket was issued would be 10:31:11 on the 03rd March 2011 And so on.

 

You may use that logic, but the PCN payment system doesn't. If it did, there would be no need to specify "beginning on the date on which the PCN was served". They would just say 14 days.

 

I still think they are more likely than not to allow the discount. Wait and see.

[mhill716600]

Just to let you all know, the council have backed down and will let me pay the reduced fine of £25.00

 

Cheers

 

Guy's