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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Sorry to jump in - we were sold PPI for our windows loan (First National) and the single premium was added to the loan. The loan was negotitated by the window firm as was the PPI. The PPI was quite clearly mis-sold (won;t go into it atm) we wrote the GE Cap to claim and received a letter referring us to the window company but this company went into receivership and according to Co House has been dissolved. I would therefore appreciate any suggestions where I go from here.

Thanks

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Sorry to jump in - we were sold PPI for our windows loan (First National) and the single premium was added to the loan. The loan was negotitated by the window firm as was the PPI. The PPI was quite clearly mis-sold (won;t go into it atm) we wrote the GE Cap to claim and received a letter referring us to the window company but this company went into receivership and according to Co House has been dissolved. I would therefore appreciate any suggestions where I go from here.

Thanks

 

Well if they've had your money when you shouldn't have been sold the PPI, I would suggest that there's an argument that they should pay it back to you. Surely they must have some responsibility for ensuring that their policies are not mis-sold and that they do not take money from missold policies.

 

You could always take them to court to see what a judge thinks. If the claim is for under £5k the risks are relatively small.

 

I would suggest you look into this and start a thread about it.

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Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Sorry to jump in - we were sold PPI for our windows loan (First National) and the single premium was added to the loan. The loan was negotitated by the window firm as was the PPI. The PPI was quite clearly mis-sold (won;t go into it atm) we wrote the GE Cap to claim and received a letter referring us to the window company but this company went into receivership and according to Co House has been dissolved. I would therefore appreciate any suggestions where I go from here.

Thanks

 

I have first hand experience of this very subject, good old FN/GE runround, did exactly the same to me over a loan for windows. DCA took us to court over this loan even tho' a ppi complaint was lodged with the FOS. Not going to go into too much detail as this may well end up in further court action against GE (reason as stated on my thread), the DJ found that the ppi was mis sold for various reasons & that the window salesman was driven by (secret) commissions paid by FN/GE to sell the ppi 'product' . As Caro advised start a thread on the subject.

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There's a lot of to-ing and fro-ing on this .... but basically i would agree that FOS is the best route for this sort of claim, not the courts , for the reasons stated by caro .... (and contador) ...

 

A friend of mine was mis-sold a PPI (because he was self-employed) for a mortgage .. the PPI was negotiated through a Mortgage lender ... who is no longer in business ..... and FOS decreed that the bank who dealt with this (I think it was Santander) were responsible ... he got his money back recently ....

 

I'd say it's worth a try with FOS before going the court route ... which may hold more pitfalls in law ...

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Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

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If you go through the FOS, I wonder where they'd stand on the issue of claiming compound interest in restitution.

 

This is surely what you would do if seeking a PPI refund through the court, using the same compound interest spready as for CCard penalty charges.

 

Are the FOS really likely to suggest the bank pays compound interest at a significantly higher rate than Stat'y Int't at 8%.

 

From what I've seen, the FOS are quite prepared to let the banks get away with lower refunds, even leaving the banks to decide on the final settlement figures. :sad:

 

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There's a lot of to-ing and fro-ing on this .... but basically i would agree that FOS is the best route for this sort of claim, not the courts , for the reasons stated by caro .... (and contador) ...

 

A friend of mine was mis-sold a PPI (because he was self-employed) for a mortgage .. the PPI was negotiated through a Mortgage lender ... who is no longer in business ..... and FOS decreed that the bank who dealt with this (I think it was Santander) were responsible ... he got his money back recently ....

 

I'd say it's worth a try with FOS before going the court route ... which may hold more pitfalls in law ...

 

Sorry Johnny but I think you must have misread something. I don't agree that FOS is the best route, although of course if you don't get a satisfactory outcome with FOS there is still the option to go to court.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

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Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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There's a lot of to-ing and fro-ing on this .... but basically i would agree that FOS is the best route for this sort of claim, not the courts , for the reasons stated by caro .... (and contador) ...

 

A friend of mine was mis-sold a PPI (because he was self-employed) for a mortgage .. the PPI was negotiated through a Mortgage lender ... who is no longer in business ..... and FOS decreed that the bank who dealt with this (I think it was Santander) were responsible ... he got his money back recently ....

 

I'd say it's worth a try with FOS before going the court route ... which may hold more pitfalls in law ...

 

I agree to this not everybody is a fan of FOS but I have found in all my claims they have come up trumps.To add to the broker/PPI posts, I have a claim going through FOS who are going after Lloyds of London as underwriters of First Plus PPi.I had a secured loan with First Plus with PPI in 2002 which as I found out was provided via Freedom finance who subsequently went through a company called Karakus who were based out in Gilbraltar (theres lot on the forums about first plus/freedom/Karakus) basically Lloyds are awaiting outcome from FOS investigation who have numerous complaints on the conduct of of these three companies when setting up the PPI.Lloyds have admitted being the underwriters so have not refused to repay the PPI they are awaiting the outcome of the FOS who update me regulary on the current findings.Despite the date issue and the fact PPI was setup via 3-4 companies are am confident I will get all or some of the PPI refunded.

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No, you don't want to take anyone to court for PPI. You should complain and escalate it to the FOS should you need to.

 

The lender is indeed responsible for their products bur they aren't responsible for mis-selling it where they didn't sell it.

 

Most IFAs operate within 'networks' and I think I'm right in saying that complaints about individual IFAs are the responsibility of the network. Failing that then approach the FSCS http://www.fscs.org.uk/

 

What the FSA are saying that as far as the consumer is concerned the complaint should be dealt with by the broker and if the broker feels that the lender bears some liability then the broker may have have recourse in the courts with the lender, That process does not involve the consumer and is separate to the broker's liability to the consumer.

Contador, may I ask what you would do in this situation? i.e. where the 'seller' was an IFA who has since gone out of business. Thanks.

The matrix is intrinsically flawed. Within it is the program for it's own destruction. If you are reading this, you are in the matrix and it's days are numbered...so watch out! :eek:

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Don't forget though Buster, that if you use the FSCS and the claim is over £2k, you won't get all of your money back. :roll:

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I have succesfully had PPI returned to me with 8% interest from GE Money who took over First National. I went back to 1996 using section 32 of the Limitation Act 1980. The window company do the leg work for the loan company lending the money for your doors and windows, however the loan company does the search on your credit file and raises the paperwork, which includes adding in PPI.

 

The main participants in the product development, distribution and administration of PPI are insurers/underwriters, credit providers or lenders, intermediaries, eg brokers, independent financial advisers. The insurers or underwriters of PPI products take on the risk3 of a customer’s inability to meet financial obligations, arising from a loan or other credit agreements because of unexpected events such as unemployment, accident, sickness or death. Intermediaries can distribute both credit products and PPI, or PPI alone. However, they neither underwrite the PPI products nor finance the credit or loan. Intermediaries make available to customers credit products or loans and PPI of one or more lenders and/or underwriters. These products can be distributed under the brand name of the lender or of the underwriter. In this case First National lent the money added PPI, but that was probably underwritten by another company behind the scenes who authorise First National to collect the money on their behalf. The more you look into PPI selling by the banks and insurance companies, you can see why the whole industry is riddled with con artists making vast somes of money. Underwriters have to put in tenders before being selected to provide PPI, many contracts have provisions regulating the transfer of the PPI policies to the new underwriter when the contract expires who may increase your PPI payments which has been seen with the credit card companies in the past. The PPI claim is against the loan company who added it to your loan.

 

 

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If you go through the FOS, I wonder where they'd stand on the issue of claiming compound interest in restitution.

 

This is surely what you would do if seeking a PPI refund through the court, using the same compound interest spready as for CCard penalty charges.

 

Are the FOS really likely to suggest the bank pays compound interest at a significantly higher rate than Stat'y Int't at 8%.

 

From what I've seen, the FOS are quite prepared to let the banks get away with lower refunds, even leaving the banks to decide on the final settlement figures. :sad:

 

8-)

 

As far as I can see, the FOS doesn't make any provision for providing compound interest in restitution. That being the case, if it was a simple case of choosing between the FOS and the court route, most people - myself included - would, understandably, opt for the later.

 

However, assuming Contador is correct - and I have no reason to think otherwise - it appears the choice isn't quite as simple as that. Take your claim to the FOS and, while you may not benefit from compound interest in restitution, the FSA's principles come into play and there is every likelihood your claim for mis-selling will be upheld.

 

Take the court route and, assuming I'm understanding Contador correctly, the FSA's principles do not come into play. Rather, it's a case of using the Insurance Conduct of Business Regulations to demonstrate your PPI was mis-sold which, it seems, can prove rather more difficult.

 

Moreover, it's my understanding that even if a court upholds a claim that PPI has been mis-sold, it cannot be taken for granted that the judge will agree to award compound interest in restitution.

 

The point, it seems to me, is this: if you're intent on getting compound interest in restitution then court may be your only option but if you proceed in this direction on the basis of the FSA's principles - which aren't actionable in court - the likelihood is that you won't end up with more than you would have done had you gone to the FOS but you might well end up with nothing at all.

NatWest: seeking unlawful charges + interest incurred as a result of those charges of £4,292.82 and contractual interest (compounded) of £4,559.41. Court claim issued 16.01.08; acknowledgement of service filled by Cobbetts on 30.01.08

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Can someone give me the definition of "judicial" please.

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Can someone give me the definition of "judicial" please.

 

I understand what you're intimating but, as I understand it, a Judicial Review simply looks at the legality of an action undertaken by a government department or local authority.

 

In this instance, the Judicial Review upheld the approach the FSA was taking to the sale of PPI.

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1220.htm

 

Of course, it would be helpful it the principles observed by the FSA and FOS when reviewing the sale of PPI were enshrined in law but, as I understand it, much as we might like 'em to be, the fact remains they're not.

Edited by Fred_Funk

NatWest: seeking unlawful charges + interest incurred as a result of those charges of £4,292.82 and contractual interest (compounded) of £4,559.41. Court claim issued 16.01.08; acknowledgement of service filled by Cobbetts on 30.01.08

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"However, assuming Contador is correct - and I have no reason to think otherwise"

 

Hmn-no reason ...so explain please why no reason ?

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Thank you for the links, on reading through I found these which I think are interesting:

 

Two provisions make it clear that (1) a firm should not consider that a successful claim on a PPI policy is in itself sufficient evidence that the complainant had a need for the policy or would have bought it regardless (DISP App 3.3.7G) and (2) that a complaint should not be rejected solely because the complainant had held a PPI policy before (DISP App 3.3.13G).

 

Although I never made a claim on any PPI policies, its nice to see that even if you did this will not preclude you from making a complaint.

 

Regarding intermediaries:

 

"Distributors are responsible for maintaining a compliant sales process, and therefore should be responsible for redress, where a failing arose from the manner in which the product was sold. If brokers feel that undue pressure was placed upon them by lenders or insurers, they may separately have recourse to the court if they so choose."

 

Still unclear to me how to find an IFA who is no longer an IFA and address the PPI issues. I've sent another letter to the lender/insurer company so will see what they come back with but thanks to ukaviator who I think has made it a bit clearer for me.

 

And one more point, if the court "disagreed" then surely the court route is open to Claimants?

 

The court, however, disagreed. Whether or not actionable, the Principles were one of a number of things firms (and the fos) should take into account when considering a mis-selling complaint.

 

MadKit

Edited by MadKit
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I did check out all the info on intermediaries. My problem is that I know the IFA went to work for a "wealth" firm, go figure! I don't know what he's doing now as its been about 6 years since then, however the lender/insurer is still quoting his old company name and address which is no longer valid. The PPI was sold through the intermediary (LTD company) rather than an actual company and is in the same name as the lender and as I said, LTD company is defunct.

 

I didn't see a date on ukaviator's post so am not sure when the claim was made but I thought this was recent?

 

MadKit

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"However, assuming Contador is correct - and I have no reason to think otherwise"

 

Hmn-no reason ...so explain please why no reason ?

 

I'm not sure why one or two of the site helpers appear to have it in for myself and Contador. For my part, all I'm trying to do is establish the best grounds on which to proceed with my claim and, in that respect, have found his posts - which, more often that not, are accompanied by supporting links - especially helpful. Believe you me, I wish there was a bona fide case for applying the FSA's principles in court and, at the same time, asking for compound interest in restitution.

 

To that end, if you can point me in the direction of one, I'd be most incredibly grateful.

 

Regrettably, no-one has yet managed to do so and, that being the case, have little option but to take the view what Contador has posted - and I've pasted, below - is correct.

 

''The court held that although the Principles are NON-ACTIONABLE they are still relevant for the Financial Ombudsman in deciding what is fair and reasonable in all the circumstances.''

 

http://www.mablaw.com/2011/05/ppi-decision/

NatWest: seeking unlawful charges + interest incurred as a result of those charges of £4,292.82 and contractual interest (compounded) of £4,559.41. Court claim issued 16.01.08; acknowledgement of service filled by Cobbetts on 30.01.08

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I found this on (http://www.allenovery.com) as well:

 

On the one hand, it is now clear that a firm can lawfully be held (in some circumstances by its customers as well as the FSA) to 'augmented' standards deriving from the Principles which go beyond the requirements of specific regulatory rules. On the other hand, the judgment gives little or no comfort to firms seeking to understand - at the time they are seeking to comply with them - exactly what standards they are required to achieve. Different but conflicting views may legitimately be taken of such matters. If liability - not only to the FSA but also to individual customers - may lawfully flow from breaches of the Principles, as the judge plainly found it could...

 

Surely this means it works for us as court claimants as well? And as soon as someone has won in court citing the judicial review and the above principles, then we will have a precedent. (Site people please correct me if I am wrong)

 

As far as claiming compound interest is concerned:

 

In a landmark judgment in Sempra Metals Ltd v Commissioners of Inland Revenue and another (2007) HL 34 given on 18 July 2007 the House of Lords has found that Sempra Metals Ltd (Sempra) is entitled to claim compound interest...

 

MadKit

Edited by MadKit
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Important County Court decision could impact on lenders and brokers

 

Tuesday 20th July 2010

 

 

A recent case described as 'important' by legal professionals could create problems for mortgage lenders and brokers in dealing with PPI complaints.

In a recent County Court case in Manchester, borrowers pursued a claim against the subprime lender Nemo Personal Finance, under Section 140A of the Consumer Credit Act.

Section 140A of the Consumer Credit Act empowers the Court to make such orders as it determines appropriate where there is an unfair relationship between creditor and debtor.

In this case, the borrowers sought redress entirely from the lender, as the mortgage broker involved, Loan Options, has gone into administration.

One of the borrowers claimed that the mortgage broker “forced” an uncompetitive PPI policy upon her, and made her feel that the taking of PPI was a condition of receiving the loan.

The borrowers also sought declaration that the lender had procured a breach by the broker of its fiduciary duty by paying undisclosed commission.

Although the case was decided at County Court level and therefore is not binding on other courts, it has been said that there is “little doubt” that it will be produced by debtors, PPI claimants and claims management companies in support of claims.

In this particular case the PPI premium was £15,468.75, the premium being funded from a loan repayable over a 20 year term.

The total cost of the PPI with interest was £32,436, with the loan providing life cover for both of the debtors and sickness and unemployment benefit for the first named debtor. The cover was limited for a period of 5 years only and provided cover for 12 monthly payments, equating to £8,000 in any one claim. A 50% refund of the premium was available at the end of the policy if no claim was made under it.

In respect of the loan advance, the brokers received a commission of £9,982.50 and a brokers’ fee of £2,000. Half of the PPI premium was received as commission by lender and broker.

The Judge decided on the facts that the policy was unfair to the claimants.

His Honour Judge Platts took account of the fact that the commission received increased significantly by inclusion of the premium for PPI and that although payment of commission was known to borrowers, the precise amount was not.

He said: “If the debtor knew the amounts involved she would have had a clear picture from which to make an informed decision as to whether or not what was being offered to her was in her best interests.”

It was also acknowledged that whilst the lender could not be held liable for anything said or done by the broker, the Judge still found that the claimants were led to understand that the PPI had to be taken as a condition of the loan (though the documents stated otherwise) taking the view that the debtor was an “unsophisticated” borrower.

“It seems to me if the consumer is paying £15,000 for a policy of insurance he is entitled to know in the interest of fairness that less than one half is actually going to pay for the policy and more than half is going to be paid in commission to the broker and the lender who is effectively selling the product to the consumer,” the Judge continued.

The Court found that the amount involved gave incentive to the broker to sell the product and that although the primary duty of disclosure is on the broker this does not remove the necessity from the lender to ensure that the broker has discharged his duty.

The exact redress due to the borrower is yet to be quantified.

Jonathan Newman, legal expert and partner at the solicitor firm Brightstone Law, said that the case was significant as it was one of the first known cases on unfair credit relationships where PPI mis-sale has been used as the basis for the claim.

He said: “This outcome could affect a lot of brokers, and lenders also need to worry as under the relatively new Section 140A of the Consumer Credit Agreement the Courts have wide powers to give awards, compensate borrowers and redraw credit agreements.Section 140A applies to Consumer Credit Act loans and unregulated loans.

“What we can learn from this case is that the Courts are looking for complete transparency in the payment of commissions where borrowers are designated as “unsophisticated”. Here there was a “huge lacuna” of evidence. Better record keeping including recording of phone conversations, can be the difference between success and failiure in defending these claims..”

He added: “In this case the borrowers succeeded on the facts as the terms of the policy were deemed particularly unfair and expensive, In future cases where the terms are different, the disclosure clearer, and the broker available to provide better evidence as to what events took place at the point of sale the outcome may just be different.”

important county court decision could impact lenders brokers

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Nemo

 

Interesting as that is, I'm not convinced of its relevance here.

 

No-one is suggesting that claims for mis-sold PPI can't be taken to court, merely that if you chose to do so you can't rely on the principles identified by the FSA and upheld in the recent Judicial Review.

 

As far as I can see, the case you have highlighted above does nothing to dispell this notion as, clearly, there is no reference to the FSA's principles, rather the claim was brought under section 140A of the Consumer Credit Act.

 

Moreover, it seems one of the principle reasons the judge found in favour of the claimant was because of the 'unsophisticated' nature of the borrower, allayed to the underhand tactics of the lender which, I imagine, might be far less clearcut in the many claims.

 

In any case, the report describes the exact redress to the borrower as 'unquantified'. Certainly, there is no suggestion that they will receive compound interest in restitution which was, as I understood it, why some posters were advocating pursuing mis-sold PPI claims via the courts rather than the FOS.

 

As ever, I don't profess to be any kind of expert in this - the only claim I make is to have done a fair bit of reading around the subject - and would be interested to hear the views of others.

 

Thanks in anticipation

Fred_Funk

NatWest: seeking unlawful charges + interest incurred as a result of those charges of £4,292.82 and contractual interest (compounded) of £4,559.41. Court claim issued 16.01.08; acknowledgement of service filled by Cobbetts on 30.01.08

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Nemo? I must have missed something about the posting but I thought it was caro? :?:

 

I'm very inclined to trust one of the Site Team if they judge that this case is of use and relevant to what is being discussed on this thread and I don't think either you or Contador have been targeted in any way or the Site Team "has it in for you". Again, perhaps its me and I've missed something again but we're all in this to help and obtain as much as advice from each other as we can and every comment is welcomed.

 

I'm pretty sure I posted the case to refer to when claiming compound interest, its one I've used before successfully and as far as I know, the one quoted when going to court. What more were you looking for Fred_Funk?

 

From what I understand and happened in one of my claims, when Claimants sign a confidentiality agreement the redress or payout is "unquantified" as it forms part of a separate court order. After all, they wouldn't want to know how much they had to shell out now would they? :lol:

 

MadKit

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No-one is denying that you can't go to FOS, but you'll have a hell of a long wait which is unnecessary, and if FOS get flooded with tens or hundreds of thousands more claims they'll be struggling even more to keep up with the workload.

 

Like you Fred, we're all looking for the best way to proceed and make sure the facts are readily available for people to make informed decisions about how they wish to proceed.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Nemo? I must have missed something about the posting but I thought it was caro? :?:

 

I'm very inclined to trust one of the Site Team if they judge that this case is of use and relevant to what is being discussed on this thread and I don't think either you or Contador have been targeted in any way or the Site Team "has it in for you". Again, perhaps its me and I've missed something again but we're all in this to help and obtain as much as advice from each other as we can and every comment is welcomed.

 

I'm pretty sure I posted the case to refer to when claiming compound interest, its one I've used before successfully and as far as I know, the one quoted when going to court. What more were you looking for Fred_Funk?

 

From what I understand and happened in one of my claims, when Claimants sign a confidentiality agreement the redress or payout is "unquantified" as it forms part of a separate court order. After all, they wouldn't want to know how much they had to shell out now would they? :lol:

 

MadKit

 

Sorry, meant Caro not Nemo.

 

I'm not disputing that there's an argument for claiming compound interest in restitution - indeed I did so myself with my bank charges - and would agree that, should you elect to go down this route, you should do so on the basis of Sempra.

 

Nor am I arguing against going to court, especially if you want to avoid a ridiculously long wait, I'm merely saying that is seems to me Contador is correct and that if you do so you shouldn't rely on the principles outlined by the FSA and upheld in the Judicial Review as they aren't, it seems, actionable in court.

 

Fred_Funk

NatWest: seeking unlawful charges + interest incurred as a result of those charges of £4,292.82 and contractual interest (compounded) of £4,559.41. Court claim issued 16.01.08; acknowledgement of service filled by Cobbetts on 30.01.08

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