MBNA cant currently comply with CCA, what now?

[tam65]

OK the Harrison torture trial, i will have to go back and read it again, something about " he got the credit card so he must have signed something" or similar, read it many times but is it true?

my little story, true I hasten to add, could be converted into good evidential english and be put forward as to cast some doubt on the balance of probabilities that they work on in civil trials n'est pas?

anyone got anything similar to share?

Edited March 10, 2011 by tam65
spelling

[victoria_siempre]

Hi tam

 

I think minmoo knows really and is one of the good guys.

 

My worry is that if they identify me here they might think I'm a well informed, argumentative and assertive person with lots of support from CAG in upholding my rights; and I wouldn't want preferential treatment. The more the merrier.

 

x

 

v

[minmoo]

Thanks for your understanding Tam, i have read enough reads to know that some things need to be kept close to your chest. It seems like you did the right thing by turning down your offer of a lovely shiny new agreement though. Very sly indeed!

 

Vic: Thank for the vote of confidence, what you see is what you get here with me. But i must say, i fear for them if they ever underestimate you lol.

[minmoo]

Min

 

That all sounds VERY promising. How about telling them you have been going through old records and have this letter thanking you for accepting PPI - which you didn't want ad clearly you didn't apply for or accept as you have BOTH copies of the PPI acceptance form - and therefore you want a full refund of ALL PPI payments plus ALL associated contractual interest at THEIR rates refunded PDQ.

 

Not sure if it's worth saying you have kept everything ever sent - and no copy of any agreement or specific T&C's received - might get them to drop everything base don the recent Harrison case?

 

BD

 

Hi BD, you kind of mirror what i was thinking myself but i am really unsure of whether it is worth rocking the boat at the moment. I may well be better waiting for the termination and then doing a sar. I will keep it ticking over in the background and see what happens over the next couple of months. I dont want them prodded in the direction of an agreement. But i do feel fairly sure now that nothing else could of been sent at the time other than what i have. My lovely lady was more neat and tidy than i realised lol.

[tam65]

vic

funny you should post that, one of your many posts or threads was the first one I ever read, and i thought "i hope that isn't her real surname, it is a bit unusual, they could trace her no problem." That was back in the day, before you even had an avatar.

Always

Tam

[Bigdebtor]

Hi BD, you kind of mirror what i was thinking myself but i am really unsure of whether it is worth rocking the boat at the moment. I may well be better waiting for the termination and then doing a sar. I will keep it ticking over in the background and see what happens over the next couple of months. I dont want them prodded in the direction of an agreement. But i do feel fairly sure now that nothing else could of been sent at the time other than what i have. My lovely lady was more neat and tidy than i realised lol.

 

Min - OK - can't disagree with that strategy!

 

Good luck - and keep us posted!

 

BD

[means2anend]

I have just finished reading Keith Harrison v Link Financial....and whilst there were a number of issues in dispute I wish to concentrate on s78 and CPUTR 2008.

I found the statement of MBNA's witness Mrs Worden rather illuminating

63.The Defendant was fully entitled to produce a reconstituted version of the terms & conditions provided that it contained all the relevant terms. The only difference between C and C1 is to be found in the increased charges for breach that are set out in condition 14.1. The unsurprising inference is that the increases were imposed after the lower charges were first imposed. Thus, given no change in the remainder of the document, if C was an accurate rendition of the terms & conditions save for the charges for breach then so will be C1. The consequence is that if the attack on C was good then it will also be good in respect of C1 and, if it was bad, then the likelihood is that it will be bad in respect of C1. I therefore cannot see how the Claimant is disadvantaged by the amendment and permission is granted accordingly. I now return to the question of whether C1 contains the relevant terms & conditions.

 

64. Paragraph 18 of Mrs Worden's statement contains the following passage:

"... In April 2010 the Defendant requested a copy of the original terms and conditions which would have applied to the Credit Agreement at the time it was entered into. Initially MBNA retrieved from its template library a copy of the terms and conditions which applied to the Platinum Plus Visa credit card at a slightly earlier date to April 1998 and which therefore included different charges at condition 14.1 of the terms and conditions. A copy of these terms and conditions are attached at Exhibit "NW5" [i.e. C]. A copy of the terms and conditions template in use at the time that the Claimant entered into the Credit Agreement is now attached at "NW6" [i.e. C1]. The prescribed terms in conditions 8 and 9 of the document attached at "NW6" mirror those in the credit agreement (as they would have done at the time they were sent to the Claimant), and the remaining clauses were the standard clauses in force for all of MBNA's credit card customers at that time. I confirm that the template of the terms and conditions shown at "NW6" [i.e. C1] are the actual terms and conditions which applied to the Credit Agreement at the time that it was entered into."

 

65.The passage requires careful reading and its terms became a little clearer in the course of Mrs Worden's evidence. It seems to me that what Mrs Worden was saying was that, for the most part, during any period with which the court might be concerned in order to focus on the section 78 issue the terms & conditions were in standard form and were therefore properly described as a template. She was further saying that there was no real difficulty in identifying the template relevant to the period with which I am concerned because it was clearly in use over all of any period that one might consider to be relevant in deciding whether or not section 78 had been complied with. The variables were the interest, APR and charges figures.

1. It seems to me that the Claimant has not particularly engaged with this way of putting the case. I take the point that one would have expected there to have been reference codes that would have identified terms & conditions that were current at any particular time. I think that, as with other aspects of the Claimant's case, the Defendant has been unduly dismissive of the point. But the difficulty which it seems to me that the Claimant faces is that there appears to be no suggestion that, in some way, Mrs Worden in assembling her archive of material was random in her attribution of dates referable to various sets of terms & conditions. In fact there was no particular examination of Mrs Worden's methodology in the course of her cross-examination.
   

 

1. Despite the misplaced confidence with which she stated the facts set out in paragraph 12 of her statement in respect of the sending of the default notice, Mrs Worden was an intelligent, conscientious and patently honest witness. No good reason has been advanced to me as to why what may be called the general terms & conditions during at least part of 1998 might be expected to have been different from those in C1. The provisions for interest and APR were derived from the FRC. There is nothing to undermine confidence in the accuracy of the amount of the charges.
   

 

1. That said, I cannot say that I regard the Defendant's approach as ideal. I think that, given the lack coding, it would have been helpful to have been shown the latest terms & conditions current before the making of the agreement as to which there could be no argument and those current at the earliest date after the agreement as to which there could be no argument. If, subject to figures, the terms & conditions were the same, it would be clear that the template was current at the relevant time and the only question would be what the relevant figures were. By contrast, I note that the "sample" terms & conditions "NW2" which accompanied Mrs Worden's statement are in a materially different form from C and C1. They also appear to bear a code "12X015". However, I have no date for them and the rates are different from those undoubtedly current when the agreement with the Claimant was made....
   

 

It is appears then that from the above MBNA would be unable to satisfy CPUTR 2008 to confirm/locate an original agreement and also therefore provide a required Direct copy from an original to satisfy variations in interest rates/dharges as per Carey paras 108 and 234.

[minmoo]

That is an excellent and well explained post m2ae, thank you. I suppose based on your post that they are unable to satisfy CPUTR 2008 on their own accounts, then what are the chances of being able to with account from another lender which they took over?

 

So i now absolutely do not expect a reply to my letter lol

[Bigdebtor]

m2ae

 

I agree totally with your theory.

 

I just wish I had not settled at 35% with MBNA in 2007. I would have been over £11k better off - but at least I am much better prepared/informed to fight the remaining debts still outstanding.

 

BD

[minmoo]

Hi BD, i dont think you should beat yourself up over it. At least you can sleep at nights knowing you got it out of the way and i see 35% as a victory

Personally i think you did well and you have avoided any potential stress and misery that mbna could of heaped on you!

[means2anend]

Also The Judge is actually saying that the claimant has not put his case forward properly but nevertheless if he had, The Judge is suggesting that HE would have found on those issues too OR DID HE!!!..I think that the decision does...read the following again

 

 

1. It seems to me that the Claimant has not particularly engaged with this way of putting the case. I take the point that one would have expected there to have been reference codes that would have identified terms & conditions that were current at any particular time. I think that, as with other aspects of the Claimant's case, the Defendant has been unduly dismissive of the point. But the difficulty which it seems to me that the Claimant faces is that there appears to be no suggestion that, in some way, Mrs Worden in assembling her archive of material was random in her attribution of dates referable to various sets of terms & conditions. In fact there was no particular examination of Mrs Worden's methodology in the course of her cross-examination.
   

rgds

m2ae

Edited March 14, 2011 by means2anend

[diddydicky]

yep- it looks to ME like the judge was telling the claimant that he missed an opportunity- and this alerts those of us watching to make sure WE dont!!

 

judges OFTEN make the point that IF ONLY a "positive assertion" as to facts had been made-

[means2anend]

Exactly DD...and how many of our fellow caggers have failed for not preparing properly..our system is adversarial NOT inquisitive..it is NOT for The Judge to 'make the case' for either of the parties.

 

rgds

m2ae

[Bigdebtor]

Hi BD, i dont think you should beat yourself up over it. At least you can sleep at nights knowing you got it out of the way and i see 35% as a victory

Personally i think you did well and you have avoided any potential stress and misery that mbna could of heaped on you!

 

Min

 

You're forgetting a boy from Glasgow would NEVER pass up the opportunity for a good fight - although MBNA might not be a sufficiently worthy opponent as we NEVER go after those weaker or less capable than ourselves!

 

Anyway as my sig in post 209 shows I've still got plenty of potential fights left to keep me amused until SB dates kick in!

 

BD

[minmoo]

I understand that, my nan was from Paisley and she scared the b'jesus out of me lol

[diddydicky]

I understand that, my nan was from Paisley and she scared the b'jesus out of me lol

 

is paisley in ireland then?

[minmoo]

Too much father ted i reckon lol

[HoodedClaw]

Subbed

[Ricardino]

Excellent thread guy 'n' gals .

I have the same problem regarding charges which the OC has claimed would have been varied. My arguement, if there was a

holiday period (as in my case) why would the charges have been varied so soon after inception?

Would this then not mean that the variation notice would necessitate a different holiday period term (reducing the original specific length of time) which would in turn also alter the initial APR? Or do they not have to include terms that are not varied? My experience is that each set of t&c's normally contain all the original terms that have not been varied as well???

 

Ric

[minmoo]

Hello all

 

Update for my MBNA account with two new letters arriving today!

 

The first is my default notice which is no suprise but the other one is a copy of the one they already sent me saying they cant currently comply with my request for a cca so wont enforce in court while this is ongoing etc. But i still have an obligation to pay. Exactly the same bar the dates have been refreshed!

 

Not quite sure why they sent that one again.

[victoria_siempre]

Hi minmoo

 

Good to hear from you. Perhaps their computer was bored?

 

xxx

 

v

[minmoo]

I think you may be right Vic, somebody somewhere is making an attempt at justifying their wage ;-)

 

Its been a while but thats because i have tried to heed the advice of my peers and worry less! No point in posting every confused thought i have on this thread, the database may have a meltdown haha.

Have you been away, i have missed your anecdotes and measured words of wisdom over the last few weeks

[victoria_siempre]

Hi minmoo

 

Worry is wrong; and less is sometimes more in this wonderful sight that can sometimes displace.

 

Your supposition is perspicacious in that I may have been in the caravan of love close to Tingy's border. Anyway, we's back now and I am already practicing with ARC and CSL.

 

xxxxx

 

v

[leopard lady]

Hi Minmoo, I think they have a need to remind you they're still there every so often!!! I'm expecting my default notice any time now as well as I have stopped trying to bang my head against a brick wall and keep sending them my mums money. My token payments are sure to get a default notice. At least you know they won't be sending you court papers.

[tam65]

hey minmoo and gang

I got my DN today, my accompanying letter said something like all payments will now be forwarded to the DCA or words to that effect, which alerted me to stop paying my token payment. If they pass on even £1 to the DCA then is this not some sort of acknowlegement of debt, read it somewhere, best advice is to cancel all payments to MBNA immediately.

I wonder if I have the world record, zero phonecalls on a £7k balance, will keep you posted if I get anything interesting.

Tam