Grievance - Is raising one, the first step to being sacked or resigning ?

[jonnycooper]

Good call SarEl.

 

I also think that it could be argued, should you get put in for some kind of assessment on ability (forget what you call it), and they argued that you "should have said something" is easily negated. You simply say, I was dealing with my new issues such as new disabilities etc., and I really hadn't considered discrimination, I thought my company were decent people. And at the Tribunal, your barrister could say the employer breached mutual trust/confidence principle, as you couldn't trust them to discharge their legal responsibilities towards you... but that is a long way away, and not what you are aiming for.

 

On that basis I would, personally, at this stage right now, keep your powder dry but remain alert (document everything). But do try to build positive relationships on paper, and also in person. You want to keep your job, and you want work to be a nice place. Believe me, mine went the other way and I wouldn't recommend it as anything but a last option.

 

FX

 

Thanks FX

 

I sadly think things may end up going a similar way to yours. I am getting the distinct feeling of two hands on my back pushing me if you get my drift. I would not be surprised if within the next few days something happens. Secret Squirrels have been very busy recently...

[jonnycooper]

You could not be more right. Over the weekend I am going to do some research on legal advice..

[jonnycooper]

I have given this matter a lot of thought and tried to not let my emotions dictate my actions.

 

However, I have now decided to submit a grievance to my employer, I am going to sit down over the weekend and write a letter to detailing in full my formal grievance.

 

My employer's grievance policy states that I have to say what I want as a resolution. Does anyone know of any websites etc that I can take a look at with regards to resolutions.

 

Is it unreasonable to look at judgements made by Employment Tribunals as a guide ?

[BlurredFX]

I have given this matter a lot of thought and tried to not let my emotions dictate my actions.

 

Been there done that, there comes a point where you must take decisive action. It's a big decision, but you sound like you have made your mind up.

 

While typing it up, I found it stressful. Recently I helped a friend with an employment problem. I had to sit down with her and argue with her, to ensure she was sure in the facts and cross reference everything. Her 17 year old son was a little concerned to hear us "arguing", but he understood once his mum told him! It would be good if you could have someone to play devils advocate with you, but that can require a robust friendship. My point is, I was external to the situation, and she understood why I wanted to grill her - to make sure her story was straight! Tough love if you like. Any tribunal will ultimately want to achieve the same - work out who is playing a straight game, and who is trying to work the system.

 

My employer's grievance policy states that I have to say what I want as a resolution. Does anyone know of any websites etc that I can take a look at with regards to resolutions.

 

BE HONEST!!! The second you start lying, you are playing a different game. You know your disabilities, you know the aids that there are to help you - tell them.

 

I am unfamiliar with the rules regarding disability discrimination, so it would be helpful is someone could add something in that respect. But in terms of writing your grievance up, crack on.

 

It will help you enormously if you can time, date, and document significant events.

 

Also worthy of note: civil courts work on "the balance of probabilities", not "beyond reasonable doubt". The more you can document, which you have been doing, the more likely it is that you will be viewed, on balance, to have tried your best to do your job; they have tried their best to be rid of you.

 

Post a copy of what you intend to write up here. Remove names and details that would give you away - that could be a sackable offence in it own right!

 

Get those times and dates, copies of emails, dates of conversations, make sure your case is built on solid foundations.

 

Sadly, without an intimate knowledge of your situation, you will have to do this! We can't do it for you. Be brave, the path you are taking is a tricky one.

 

One important questions: Is your grievance likely to lead to a sensible resolution, or is it a case of bringing the whole situation to a head and getting paid out? What is your objective? It's important as it will influence how you handle it. Just a thought... good luck!!

[BlurredFX]

One important questions: Is your grievance likely to lead to a sensible resolution, or is it a case of bringing the whole situation to a head and getting paid out? What is your objective? It's important as it will influence how you handle it

 

On reflection, you want to be SEEN to be trying your best to deal with the problem, not blaming them. Your grievance should be seen as your best hope of achieving a resolution that will enable you and your employer to continue in a positive manner. Do not be obstructive to this...

[BlurredFX]

And who will you be taking into the grievance hearing with you? It can be a colleague, or a union rep as I understand it. You may be able to argue for someone from CAB or other independent organisation to come with you, perhaps someone from a disability charity??? Just thoughts for the future.

[BlurredFX]

Last post for tonight: Might not be a bad idea to read trhough your thread from post one. I have just had a quick scan, and there are some good points that have been made that you should consider.

 

ttfn FX

[jonnycooper]

Thanks for all your comments. Is there a template letter or a specific format for grievance letters ?

 

I work with a someone who has a law degree and is not backwards in coming forwards so I will ask her to come with me to any meetings. She will be good for morale support If nothing else

[jonnycooper]

I have kept records with dates and times of everything, even conversations. Where possible, I have also followed up via email so that there is some form of documented record.

 

I know that my grievance will not go down well with my employer but I don't know what else I could have done.

[honeybee13]

I'm not aware of any template grievance letters. I believe one point you should make is that you're filing an 'official grievance' by sending the letter.

 

My best, HB

[BlurredFX]

Just write it as a letter to HR or your immediate manager, and put Formal Grievance at the top.

 

You could well find that you are not entitled to take an external party with you - after all this is currently an internal matter. Your grievance procedure should tell you who you may or may not have with you. In my experience it is a Union rep or a colleague. You could ask for a variation, but unless there is good cause (e.g. a disability advisor/expert from a charity) I doubt they will budge. The internal procedures that they lay down are what you have to follow at this stage I think.

 

What resolution do you want? You said you are obliged to provide suggestions. If you don't suggest any, they will laugh at you and tell you to get lost!

[jonnycooper]

The most important thing for me, is that my employer accepts that it got this wrong. It accepts that it has made mistakes.

 

I want my employer to then do everything now that it should have done before.

 

I also would like my employer to in someway be punished. The only way I can see this being done, is by a financial settlement. I have read a number of cases and am now familiar with the different bands for "injury to feelings" in disability discrimination tribunals.

[jonnycooper]

An apology would also be nice

[bonnygirl]

The most important thing for me, is that my employer accepts that it got this wrong. It accepts that it has made mistakes.

 

I want my employer to then do everything now that it should have done before.

 

I also would like my employer to in someway be punished. The only way I can see this being done, is by a financial settlement. I have read a number of cases and am now familiar with the different bands for "injury to feelings" in disability discrimination tribunals.

Tell your employer that you would like to get access to work involved and you can make arrangements for them to your place of employment and do an assessment. Hopefully that will help, however, it did nothing for my dad when AtW made an assessment for him and the only adjustments was a change of chair costing around 4hunderds pounds, considering this being a large organisation they would not even comply with the assessement done for him.

 

My dad has to take long period of unpaid leave to help him get back into good health again as he felt that in the end he was the only person responsible for his health and if he got any worse he would not be able to walk at all and he did not want that....in his staff handbook he took what was allowed by way of unpaid leave to help him get better. The union he is in was in had more sympathy for his employers and refused to answere my dad's questions about H&S issues at his place of work!!!!!

 

BTW there is no way an employer will apologise or will they admit that they have been in the wrong....

[BlurredFX]

Access to Work seems like a sensible thing to look at, good call BG. I have no experience of them though.

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeople/Employmentsupport/WorkSchemesAndProgrammes/DG_4000347

 

I agree with BG regarding them admitting they are in the wrong as highly unlikely - hey, at the end of the day, they don't "officially" know you are struggling. That's what your grievance is for. If they put things right, then that will likely be the end of the matter. The only way you will "punish" them is if you end up winning at tribunal.

 

By seeking help from Access to Work, being Govt funded and what not, will only ever strengthen any case you make if you ever have to fill in an ET1 and go to Tribunal. You may also find that HR people will drag their heels hoping you will give up - not an uncommon tactic in any legal process. You just have to be pig-headed about it.

 

How's the grievance coming along?

 

FX

[bonnygirl]

All details about access to work is on directgov website. You will have to contact them yourself and tell them your condition and then they will ask your persone details DoB etc and work details, also they will asked how long you had the condition. A form will be sent out to you to fill-in some more details but not much in my dad's case it was that he could not remember his work place phone number or a mobile number. This is the only information that will be asked on the form also they will need your signature. Also check the rest of the details on it to see if it is correct.

 

You will be given a name of an assessor and s/he will phone you to make appointment to see you at work and also the manager, which you will have to give them the name of your manager as well. They are very good as they will photograph the area you are working in and will make recommendation to your employer the changes that they see is needed for good business practice. They will send you a copy of their report and also a copy to the employer as well.

 

If you employer is a large organisation then they will have to pay for the adjustments but if it is a small employer then the government will pay.

 

Good luck with it.

 

Details of contacts for AtW:South East England

• London
  
• East of England
  

Jobcentre Plus

Access to Work Operational Support Unit

Nine Elms Lane

London SW95 9BH

Telephone: 020 8426 3110

Textphone: 020 8426 3133

Fax: 020 8426 3134

Email: [email protected]

Cardiff

Contact this centre if you live in:

 

• South West England
  
• Wales
  
• West Midlands
  
• East Midlands
  

Jobcentre Plus

Access to Work Operational Support Unit

Alexandra House

377 Cowbridge Road East

Cardiff CF5 1WU

Telephone: 02920 423 291

Textphone: 02920 644 886

Fax: 02920 423 342

Email: [email protected]

Glasgow

Contact this centre if you live in:

 

• Scotland
  
• North West England
  
• North East England
  
• Yorkshire and Humberside
  

Jobcentre Plus

Access to Work Operational Support Unit

Anniesland JCP

Baird Street

Glasgow G90 8AN

Telephone: 0141 950 5327

Textphone: 0845 6025850

Fax: 0141 950 5265

Email: [email protected]

Edited December 18, 2010 by bonnygirl

[jonnycooper]

Thank you.

 

I will print off one of the letters from Directgov and include it within my grievance. However, I don't believe cost is an issue as some of the adjustments are free or relatively low cost.

 

But it would be beneficial for an independent 3rd party to carry out a risk assessment. I have had two internal risk assessments but neither of which identified any required adjustments. Furthermore, I was told that the adjustments recommended by my Doctor were not necessary.

 

I have also had an offsite assessment done by a 3rd party appointed by my employer and again the adjustments recommended by this 3rd party were considered unecessary by my employer.

 

If I look at this situation without emotion, I think I have just fallen through the cracks of my employers procedures and policies.

 

However, if I look at it with emotion because of the decisions made that some adjustments were not necessary, I have experienced increased levels if pain that I would not have otherwise experienced.

 

My employer is unable to deny that they weren't aware of the continued pain I have been in because I have copies of all the emails I sent them, telling them. I also provided them with copies of all correspondence (including new and subsequent diagnosis of conditions) at all times.

 

I have even gone so far as to keep a diary detailing dates and times of everything with copies of everything.

[jonnycooper]

I have started writing my letter but I am finding hard not to go into do much detail as to confuse the reader.

 

Also because of my physical impairements, I have to keep stoping...

[bonnygirl]

Is the pain that you are experiences due to your employer not making minor adjustment for you as you say:-

 

'My employer is unable to deny that they weren't aware of the continued pain I have been in because I have copies of all the emails I sent them, telling them. I also provided them with copies of all correspondence (including new and subsequent diagnosis of conditions) at all times.'

 

What do you want your employer to do for your are they not treating you like other employees.

 

In my dad's case his employer keep him doing the same thing for his entire shift because he was good at that particular part of his job whereas other employess were not soo good at doing it.

My dad condition worsen because his employer would not treat him like other employees such as rotating him every three hrs. As a result his condition worsen and even though his GP and OHA and AtW advised changes his employer ignored it. Even his union would not help him. He will be taking legal advice after Christmas to see what can be done about it. For now he is not working there and is recovering at home but under the hospital for treatment for bone condition.

 

Hope you can get something done for yourself as only you know what this is doing to you so take care and best of luck with the greivances and it will bring change to your place of work.

[BlurredFX]

BG, that looks like good info to me.

 

But it would be beneficial for an independent 3rd party to carry out a risk assessment. I have had two internal risk assessments but neither of which identified any required adjustments. Furthermore, I was told that the adjustments recommended by my Doctor were not necessary.

 

I have also had an offsite assessment done by a 3rd party appointed by my employer and again the adjustments recommended by this 3rd party were considered unecessary by my employer.

 

If I look at this situation without emotion, I think I have just fallen through the cracks of my employers procedures and policies.

 

However, if I look at it with emotion because of the decisions made that some adjustments were not necessary, I have experienced increased levels if pain that I would not have otherwise experienced.

 

My employer is unable to deny that they weren't aware of the continued pain I have been in because I have copies of all the emails I sent them, telling them. I also provided them with copies of all correspondence (including new and subsequent diagnosis of conditions) at all times.

 

It is late, and I will keep this brief - and just a point for thought...

 

Could it be best to write the grievance about how the OP's employer has failed previously - what, with all the assessments (which seem to concur with each other - and then for a POSSIBLE resolution, suggest the AtW people?) This approach ticks the boxes on the procedures, as best I understand them.

 

It seems someone, somewhere in your organisation, thinks they know better than a Doctor... and I bet no one has put a signature to that... but that is not the issue.

 

Hard as it is, ignore the emotion. Just coz they said it, that doesn't make it true!!

 

OP has stated that he is getting bogged down in detail. I have been there and done that.

 

From experience, could I possibly suggest that: Would it be worth "drawing a line in the sand" with their previous failings? And then as part of the Grievance, simply suggest the AtW as a possible resolution. Enclose copies of info from direct.gov.uk. Leave the ball in their court for now.

 

IMO: Lets make the back-bone of the case first, flesh out the details later. Get the grievance, upto a certain date, submitted to HR people. They might just realise the error of their ways... or at least that OP is thinking ahead and they should get their act together.

 

If I look at this situation without emotion, I think I have just fallen through the cracks of my employers procedures and policies.

 

At all times, I would work on this principle. Be clinical - they will be. It's what evidence goes before a Court that counts...

[BlurredFX]

I have started writing my letter but I am finding hard not to go into do much detail as to confuse the reader.

 

Start with a timeline, showing your dates of assessments, perhaps a couple of emails that preceeded and followed the dates around the assessments, as well?? Just a thought. Good night!!!!!!

 

I've seen a Judge take 15 mins in Court to read an A4 page of text out properly. I typed half of it, and the other half got done with some good help (CAG - an embarassed defence), and it sounded even better than I thought!! THe other side's faced dropped, so so funny.

[BlurredFX]

Perhaps, something along the (very very rough) lines of:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

As you may or not be aware, I have recently *what ever happened*. This has left me facing physical difficulties in performing my duties. I firmly believe that with some minor adjustments, I will be able to perform my duties better - for our mutual benefit.

 

I have raised this issue informally with my supervisors, but I have not had a satisfactory resolution. Here is the brief time line of what has happened:

 

**paragraphs, in italics, starting with key dates perhaps??**

 

As you can see, I have tried very hard to resolve this matter. As this has failed, I feel I must raise a formal grievance, and suggest that AtW could help out with further resolution? Polite sentence blah blah.

 

Yours,

 

JohnnyCooper

 

Though, obviously, rather more polished...

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG. I'm sorry to hear about your problems. I'm sure you'll get some replies from the people here.

 

I think it would be better if you have your own thread, that way we can give you advice on your own particular problems. I'll ask the site team to organise it for you.

 

My best, HB

[papasmurf1cx]

Hi vixen

 

Are you saying that the work you carry out has caused the problems that you are suffering? It seems so. Did they give you training in lifting heavy goods / packages? How heavy are the items that you carry? Was there any ONE (or a little more) incident that you can say caused this problem and if so when was that? Did you record the incident in any accident book?

 

What I am trying to establish is if the charity can be in anyway responsible for your injury and how long you have had the problem. How does your injury affect your daily living? What have the doctors said to you to cure / resolve the injury or is there no chance of recovery?

 

All these questions need answering (and a few others I suspect) in order to start to try and help you. Fighting for justice against employers is a really stressful and uphill battle and can lead to you losing your job and financial loss. So be aware you may have a real fight on your hands.

[jonnycooper]

Thank you everyone with your help.

 

I filed my grievance and have just been told that I will be interviewed by a Senior Manager and someone from HR on Tuesday.

 

I will get all my records in order over the weekend and hit them with everything in one go. I hope they rake this seriously and aren't just going through the steps for the sake of it.