What annoys you about railway companies?

[Wriggler7]

I cannot wait to see my local prosecutor and give him a real ear bashing! This morning, I was obliged to use a train. Many times I have said 'get a ticket', so I was not about to fall fowl of an over zealous ticket inspector. The queues at my local station looked like a scene from the fall of Saigon. Thankfully, we were not being mortared by the Vietcong, but I rather doubt that the queuing standards were met.

 

Part of the problem, it must be said, is that I didn't (and nor did lots of other folk) go to the station yesterday to get our tickets for this morning, being a 'first day' after a long weekend, and also, effectively, 'first of the month' renewals. I know that there will be extra long queues on a morning such as today, presumably, so too do the never present managers.

 

This is made worse by the current ticket machines. Progress has moved the railway from 'Edmonson' through Aptis and now to a system called Tribute. Which is slower than the previous system. At the same time, we have gone from 'Quickfare', through 'Avantix' to a machine that really is called a 'Scheidt' machine. Only the German manufacturers would fail to see that joke. It means that self service machines seem to issue tickets more slowly. Of course, most of us pay by 'card'. When I were a lad, I would have the 'right money' clenched in my juvenile paw, and would get served fairly quickly, probably to stop drips of Brylcreem from spoiling the floor. Now, each transaction seems to take an age, with 'PIN' numbers being typed into pads, and, from my observation this morning, failing to register rather more often than should be the case.

 

A few years ago, there would have been some of those oft maligned ticket inspectors, actually selling tickets. Just after Christmas, I queried why they do not do this. Apparently, the machines carried by Inspectors are more likely to reject a card than not, some story about chip and pin readers that sounded too Hans Christian Anderson for my tastes, and they are programmed such that a monthly ticket simply cannot be issued, and now many weekly ticket prices are over the 'floor limit' for an Inspector to accept payment.

 

Perhaps when Old Codja is next obliged to sit with his retail managers, he might turn some pithy words in the direction of the folk responsible. When a charity supplying clean socks to the third world ask me for money, they manage to take it faster than I can get it out of my pocket, why can't a slick commercial enterprise do 'better'?

[Maxwell TM]

I may be able to help with the Hans Christian Andersen issue. I have to stress that this is only my understanding of the issue, but http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=1989245

does appear to back up my assumption.

 

It appears that Lloyds offer two differing, but visually identical Visa Debit Cards. One is an offline, or traditional debit card and can be used anywhere. Holders of these usually have full accounts. The other is an online card, which needs real time authorisation. These are for 'yoof' or those who have basic accounts. Avantix won't process online cards.

[Wriggler7]

Humph! When I get my Ermine robe, assuming that it is before my pine overcoat, I will submit a Bill demanding a return to LSD of the spending variety (rather than the injecting sort) and demand an end to card payment!

 

Of course, I do recall being able to get a train ticket with a few denarii.

 

Thank you.

[Old-CodJA]

Humph! When I get my Ermine robe, assuming that it is before my pine overcoat, I will submit a Bill demanding a return to LSD of the spending variety (rather than the injecting sort) and demand an end to card payment!

 

Of course, I do recall being able to get a train ticket with a few denarii.

 

Thank you.

 

You and I share an outlook in so many ways Wriggler7.

 

My late father always said 'There's only one credit card/note that's worth the paper it's printed on and that has the Queen's head on on one side!'

[Wriggler7]

A number of years ago, perhaps 10, my local rail company annoyed a lot of folk, including the local authority. My local station is in a heritage area, indeed, is a very important part of it. When George V was a very young King, and the late Queen mother was only 12, they hung a pair of doors on the station. Good doors, that opened and closed with nary a squeek. Then, about 10 years ago, they replaced them with ugly modern ones, all glass with hardly a frame.

 

This, despite the fact that there lives in south Essex a tribe who must be some sort of Celt, because they love to see glass go. The local authority wrote indignant letters, as the change had been made without consent, and the new doors did not fit with the character of the area.

 

Those doors were repaired regularly until a much cleverer man than I replaced them with automatic doors, still with lots of glass, which swung open, slowly, into the face of people running to catch trains. When they were working, which most certainly was not all the time. About two years ago, the stated reason was to 'improve access to the station', the 'swinging' doors were replaced by automatic sliding doors, which, when fully open, do not give as much width of gap as the previous swinging ones.

 

In passing, whilst buying a copy of 'Automated door spotters weekly' from the lady who has sold papers at the station for more years than she will admit, I queried why the doors were not working. Apparently, they have been broken for more than a fortnight, and the repair estimate is such that 'higher management' will have to authorise the spend.

 

Or they could have left the King George V memorial doors in place, at the cost of a can of '3-in-1' every ten years. What annoys me particularly, aside from the asthetic vandalism, is the unnecessary waste of money, money derived from my fares, which could have been avoided if common sense had been used instead of some glittery desire to seem fashionable.

 

For good measure, one of the automatic ticket gates was 'out of order'. As they have to be supervised by a chap to ensure that they are safe, who is required to be capable of checking the validity of my ticket if I try to use the side gate (I do look pregnant, and I generally have luggage, although my 'pregnancy' is more to do with cuisine), why did the railway spend so much money installing gates, cutting trenches in concrete for cables and so on, when the serviceability of those gates is so poor?

[Wriggler7]

At this time of day, as my neighbours get upset when I Kango pebbledashing from the front of the house, I have time to cogitate subjects like 'railways', local government and what indignant letters to write to the Times.

 

I think that my main gripe with railways is that they spend money on things that I do not want, and they don't spend it on the things that I do want.

 

I want a railway that gets me from A to B in reasonable time and comfort, at a reasonable cost, and I want them to do it in such a way that the rest of you also choose to use the railway rather than a car.

 

Generally, they do manage to run the trains on time. The cost, well we can debate that for a long time, but for most journeys, they are cheaper than the alternatives.

 

The 'overall experience'? This is an area where I feel that we are badly let down. I have to travel this morning in a direction that I do once a week or so, at the same time. I will be getting a train which I will be obliged to share with 'young people'. I hate it. When I wlk in to the station, there will be a small knot of boys, all in the uniform of one of our local schools, who will be standing around the famous broken door, smoking, swearing and spitting on the pavement. For the record, where they always stand is on the station 'land', I know this from a dispute over 'parking' that I once was involved with. Somewhere in my files, I do have a site plan of the station.

 

Are these young men corrected by railway staff? No. Well, ok, I have seen one of the keen inspectors tell them the facts of life, once.

 

Then I will have to fight my way to the top of the stairs. The girls of one of our local high schools insist on standing on the stairs. It must be a tribal thing, the girls from the other local high school insist on standing around the top of the stairs. There are no 'platform staff'.

 

I will hear language of a very salty variety, I will not be able to sit on any of the benches, which are used as climbing frames, and there seems to be no attempt to keep 'good order' on either the platform or the train.

 

I want a miserable old git to be employed by the railway to growl at these youngsters, to tell 15 year olds that old wrigglers do not want to hear what colour, how small and how easily removed were the knickers of their latest conquest. That 'platform supervisor' could also, perhaps, assist the 'visually impaired' lady I regularly see trying to navigate through the flock. I want a similar miserable git to attempt to mitigate the effects of the drunks that every evening infest the place. I would not expect him to confront them, but after they depart, he could throw buckets of water onto the puddles of vomit such that they do not resemble a 'Dominoes' finest the following morning.

 

I want 'station staff'!

 

What I get are doors that do not work, automated announcements that irritate, engineering posters that are indecipherable and a news letter with pictures of grinning managers that may or may not exist, as we never see them in the flesh. I want staff to sell me a ticket, and to talk to me. What I get are queues and self service machines that are unreliable.

 

That is of my chest. For now. Time to look at a mirror and remove stubble.

[Old-CodJA]

Spot-on Wriggler7, but you and I both know that commonsense left the higher echelons of railway management many moons ago. Somewhere in the early 1990's in fact when the powers that be decided that activities like train make-up and shunting could be better achieved with a pen and ruler than the skill and knowledge of a real railman with thirty years experience and pole in hand. It was about the same time that they decided that the law of the land was 'wrong' to call travellers by train 'passengers', but must refer to them as 'customers'....even when some of them haven't paid for anything and refuse to do so!!

 

As a lad I can well remember a group of us gathering at our local station albeit for less colourful pastimes than you describe. On one notable occasion the morning was particularly cold and we were gathered in an up-side waiting room, the etched glass windows of which bore the legend 'First Class General Waiting Room'.

 

The 'miserable git' that we both lament the passing off duly appeared and demanded in a particularly stenorous tone "What are you lot doing in 'ere?" Being 'a bit of a wag' I thought my reply was pretty smart.

 

"We're waiting for a First Class General !"

 

He wasn't amused and after a full minute of bouncing off the walls trying to avoid a sturdy broom handle I resolved never to repeat my attempt at eloquent humour in his presence, or that of others who held such clear authority.

 

Now I'm not condoning the use of the 'big stick', but sadly, his kind and the whole concept of discipline and good taste have been swept away by the tide of namby-pamby political correctness masquerading as a better social state.

 

Of course the thing that makes your comparisons re the station door so valid today, is that the one thing the new doors lack that the old ones didn't is substance. It's exactly the same with rail company management at the highest levels in many cases.

 

The shallowness of 'Image' is all that matters. The fact that this masks their seemingly complete lack of real knowledge and experience of the needs of the travelling public, seems to be cheerfully overlooked by all but the people who matter, their 'real customers'. Profit is God and sod the rest.

 

I recently had a good look around our old mid-Victorian station and was pleased to see that despite the dirt and grime, the 'First Class General Waiting Room' glass is still intact, despite being further adorned with black felt pen slogans proclaiming such heart-warming notions as 'Rob loves Jake' on the walls around it.

 

I wonder what the 'old git' with the broom handle would have made of it all????

 

Yes, I feel better this morning too

Edited May 6, 2011 by Old-CodJA
typo & spelling corrected

[sailor sam]

I stopped using the trains a few months ago. I did have a family rail card so me and my 2 sons could make the regular weekend journey between Portsmouth and Wolverhampton. The last time I checked, the return fare was £123.00 using fam railcard (avoiding London). I used to do be able to buy advanced tickets and have paid as little as £32.00 but dispite many hours of searching (in advance), these seemed to be no more. So I now hire a car which costs £45 (Friday to Monday) and even with fuel prices as they are, it still works out cheaper than travelling by train and of course I have the added convenience of having the car to travel around in. So obviously public transport (for this journey at least) is far more expensive than using a car. Dosn't that contridict what the govenment are/were trying to acheive?

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Maxwell TM]

On the FGW site this morning, a random Portsmouth-Wolverhampton return journey for 1 Adult and 2 children, using a Family Railcard, (out on May 21st return 22nd May) cost £45.30 via London and just over £65 via Reading.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Maxwell TM

[sailor sam]

On the FGW site this morning, a random Portsmouth-Wolverhampton return journey for 1 Adult and 2 children, using a Family Railcard, (out on May 21st return 28th May) cost £45.30 via London and just over £65 via Reading.

 

Thanks for that but my one son is now over 16 so I think it would be more than that now. It's strange though, because I cannot recall that any of the trains we uesd to use were FGW. It was South West Trains and Virgin (or now Cross Country). travelling via London on a Friday evening with luggage and a 6 year old child, didn't appeal to me to be honest! In fact, I would of thought that would of been more expensive than avoiding London?

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Wriggler7]

Some things stick in memory. Where I was born and brought up was, in those days, a 'white European' area. The first 'man of colour', a West Indian, that I ever saw was employed by the local railway, I haven't a clue what his grade was (I was only 4, and the bizarre grade relativities of BR was outside my understanding), I guess he was a railman, because he would often be seen standing at the entrance to the 'up' platform, checking tickets.

 

What I do recall was that he was a very tall, well built man, of impeccable appearance, he could have put the Brigade of Guards to shame.

 

And I well recall that Dad would give me the tickets to show to him. He would bend at the middle, with his back still ramrod straight, and collect them from my hand. I got the firm impression that he was a very gentle man. Mum & Dad had told me that if I were to become separated from them, to 'go to the railway man'. My impression was that I would have been very safe with him. I wonder what happened to him?

 

The railway has replaced men like him with a help point, painted yellow, with a button to press. Can you imagine a 'help point' comforting a lost child? It is, of course, a misnomer. A button is no help at all to the elderly lady with a suitcase, or the confused foreigner seeking directions. It cannot run to the front of the train and say 'hang on driver, lady has left her umberella on your train'.

 

The journey eastwards this morning was much as expected. Now I am killing time in the best cafe in Southend. Well, the best Court cafe in Southend.

[Old-CodJA]

Taken from an Avantix enquiry 5 minutes ago:

 

Train specific, advance booked adult single via CrossCountry & connecting services £20.50.

Book each way and the return fare is therefore £41.00

 

Tickets must be purchased in advance of travel, subject to availability, and are not

available on the day of travel. Customers should book as far in advance as possible to get

the cheapest fares.

 

Normal Railcard discounts can be applied as appropriate so this can be reduced by a third using your family railcard so long as one child under 16 years of age is travelling with you in both directions

[Wriggler7]

I wasn't ignoring Sam's point, I was just having a wallow in past times. The fare from 'home to work' today is cheaper than the petrol and parking, the journey time is actually quicker, and on a sunny day, the view from the train quite pleasant.

 

However, your point is quite right. Not long ago, I was involved with a 'no mot/no insurance' job. A group of four lads had worked out that it was cheaper to buy a car for their journey to Newcastle, and sell it when they got back. It worked out dearer for them, but only because they chose to ignore some basics.

[Asterix]

I went to use one of the 'Help Points', but I wouldn't touch the button, some pleasant person has spat on it. I just stood around with some other people until a train arrived. I wish my station had a tall man on the platforms, might make me feel safer.

[Asterix]

Just thinking about it, I have seen some 'security' on c2c, but some of them look more scared than I am, small men, with yellow jackets. Then there is one I have seen, all tattoos on his knuckles, looks like a yob. I only use the trains in the daytime, but even then, Basildon can be a frightening station. Louts jumping over the gates, don't care who is in the way. There is a lift, but I won't get in it.

[Grotesque]

Louts jumping over the gates, don't care who is in the way.

 

Ah, that's just the South Essex Olympic athletics entry...

[SRPO]

Now I am killing time in the best cafe in Southend. Well, the best Court cafe in Southend.

 

I do hope its not the Cambella Cafe!

[Maxwell TM]

My point in quoting fares for a journey from Portsmouth was that there are still incredible bargains available if the punter is prepared to be a little flexible and has the time to plan beforehand. Much the same practice applies to airline fares and even National Express Coaches! It's a little harsh of Sam to single out the poor old railway, which is after all only following marketing trends by putting a premium on walk up fares.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Maxwell TM
To include subsequent posts

[sailor sam]

My point in quoting fares for a journey from Portsmouth was that there are still incredible bargains available if the punter is prepared to be a little flexible and has the time to plan beforehand. Much the same practice applies to airline fares and even National Express Coaches! It's a little harsh of Sam to single out the poor old railway, which is after all only following marketing trends by putting a premium on walk up fares.

 

Max, I have to take my 2 sons on bi-monthly visits to see their mother for contact (they both live with me, long story). They finish school on a Friday at 3pm and by the time we are ready to travel it is gone 4pm so there is not a lot of 'flexibility' on the outward journey. Then we make the return journey around mid-day on the Sunday to aim to be home by 6pm so my youngest gets to bed by a reasonable time for school the following day. Yes, there is a little bit more flexibility on the Sunday because we can leave earlier of course. Now a few years ago, I could obtain advance tickets fairly easliy but over the last 12 months they have become harder to get. Another problem I encountered was the fact that sometimes, I had to contact the Virgin Train Ticket sales call centre which clearly isn't UK based so half the time what should be a 5 minute phone call ends up being 4 times that because either I can't undersatnd the operator, or they cannot understand me or know the geography of the journey I am taking. (Always wondered what the wisdom was behind a decision to farm out a call centre to foreign country which deals with a UK transport system). So booking tickets can be a complicated process. However, booking on line is far better (when the system is fully working). The fact remains though, that the normal fare (as quoted on national Rails website) is around £123 return on a family railcard. You have to admit, that is pretty steep for a journey of 170 miles compared to on the continent. I have spent more than 4 hours on some occsaions searching for various different route combinations to get the best deals, but to be honest, why should I have to when I can hire a car at a fixed price of £45 from Friday to Monday and have the added obvious conveinence? And the phone call is always a short one!

 

As for National Express, well I happen to be a share holder but I don't fancy sitting on a coach for around 7 hours when I can do the journey in 3 in a car! Maybe we need to take a few pointers from the railways on the continent where the fares are a totally different story.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Edited May 6, 2011 by sailor sam

[Wriggler7]

Sam's point is, as usual, well made.

 

It does seem to me that fares are very much based on 'what the market will stand' rather than any other issue. There is not an aggressive attitude towards reducing car travel in the rail industry. For many years, there has been almost a 'caretaker' attitude to the railways, just do enough to keep them running, whereas I feel that there should be a serious and driven attempt to capture the market away from 'roads'.

 

I think that the difficulty is that when a railway is operated by people who have a short term/quick profit attitude, there will not be such a drive.

 

In my part of the world, 'travel' has increased, whilst 'train travel' has stayed fairly static. Currently, there is a huge project to change the A13/A130 'interchange' to cope with existing and projected demand. I have only lived in this part of Essex for 30 years, but it is the third such scheme that I have witnessed. In the same period, the only infrastructure changes I have seen on the railway have been minor reductions in the 'permanent way', all of which have reduced the capacity of the railway to move people and freight about.

 

The other changes have been to allow staff reduction, rather than to increase capacity.

 

There has been a slow move to increased platform length on the 'Tilbury' line, but it has been slow, and has not been accompanied by any increase in the 'rolling stock' to provide more seats.

[Wriggler7]

What we hear from train operators, and that is part of the problem, they are just 'train operators', not serious 'railway companies', is that they will negotiate with Dft for the provision of more carriages. If they were 'serious', they would place orders, and buy new carriages. However, they all seem to have a mindset of thinking 'how to take money' as opposed to 'how to make money'.

 

The two lines near me are both National Express operated, one will be refranchised before 'the Olympics', the other just after. It is very clear that what many see as 'Great Eastern' will not be granted to National Express, and it would seem logical that the London, Tilbury and Southend route will not be National Express for long either. As such, there is no incentive for 'the company' to look beyond 'next week', and rail projects and improvements take a shade longer than that to bare fruit. Equally, there is no incentive for them to worry too much if the 'Sams' of this world hire a car. No profit for National Express in convincing a 'Sam' in south Essex to use the train to anywhere further than London.

 

It is also cheaper to allow him to ring Mumbai or 'go on line' than to encourage him to come to a station and discuss with someone paid a proper salary his best options for travel.

[Wriggler7]

And if a 'Grotesque' or a 'Draconian' should wonder what reductions in rail infrastructure have taken place, off the top of my head, the closure and lifting of the 'stone siding' at Pitsea, the removal of the overheads into the 'down' siding at Pitsea station, the removal of the coal sidings at Tilbury Power station, the closure of 'Riverside', Ripple Lane and so on. Given a few hours, I could suggest a few others, but taken in the round, there has been a reduction of ability to run trains.

 

Even the 'improvements' have brought reductions in 'service'. Prior to the introduction of 'driver only' trains, all trains leaving Southend Central would stop such that the last carriage was by the entrance to the platform. Because the scheme was 'cheap' rather than 'good', since DOO, all the 8 carriage trains stop about 4 carriage lengths further up the platform. However you try to sell it, that is a 'worse' service than before. There is a similar situation on platform 2 at Upminster.

[Maxwell TM]

We live under a 'laissez faire' economic system. 'What the market can stand' is always going to be the benchmark. Now if we followed the EU's interventionist model, we might get realistic pricing and indeed funding for public transport. This is the paradox. Continental fare structures are routinely lauded in the 'Little England' press. However, mention Brussels, unless in connection with a seasonal vegetable and the right wing has collective apoplexy.

[Wriggler7]

We have a very strange 'interventionist' system of our own. The Dft tells 'train operators' how much service to provide. A proper, free market might encourage companies, perhaps the Canvey, Rayleigh & Pitsea Public Educational Railway, to invest in, for example, a mass transit system to take the hundreds of folk from Canvey to Pitsea station. Perhaps a Disney style monorail, or a conventional railway, or guided bus way, whatever, but something to aggressively take cars off the road. On the way home, as Canvey is lower than Pitsea, it would be the passengers who would be going 'down the CRAPPER' instead of the rail network.

 

The alternative could be the sort of transport that Mr Livingston would applaud, a properly public funded 'free' (at point of sale, it still has to be paid for) transport network.

 

What we have is a bizarre combination of the worst of free market with the worst of centralized control.

[sailor sam]

A good example of what Wriggler is saying is the Bournemouth to Manchester Cross Country service (which used to be Virgin). This is one of the routes I frequently used as it calls at Southampton. These 'Voyager' trains were made up of 5 coaches and used to have a fixed shop on board which sold hot snacks ect. Now more often than not, the return journey (Sunday) would see the train full with no spare seats. As I used to obtain advanced tickets, this meant I had reserved seats (big advantage when travelling with young child + luggage), but I ususall had to have at the very least, a 'minor' confrontation with someone who would be occupying our seats because 9 time out of 10, the electronic displays would not be working. So I would be obliged to show them my ticket reservations. When Cross Country took the route over, they removed the shops to create a cycle bay area and added a few more seats. The shop is now replaced a pathetic trolly service on a potential journey of nearly 5 hours for some passengers. Why could they not simply add another couple of carriages on services which they know atre routinely full instead of reomoving a reasonable facility for passengers (the shop)? Is it because the design of the train itself won't allow it? In contrast, the South West Trains operating between London and Portsmouth ALWAYS have at least 10 coaches. Mind you, I am told that even that route suffers from overcrowding at peak times but the journey time is half that of the my earler example.

 

The bottom line is that we have an expensive, somtimes uncomfortable and complicated rail network in the UK today compared to our continental neighbours. Yes, I will continue to search for the now elusive advanced tickets to make my bi-monthly trips but I think that the majority of the time I will be travelling by car.

 

Please Note

 

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.