Creation/Irwin 1a small claim Summons old BOS then GE Money Joint Loan *WON*

[24233513afw]

Hi

Here goes...

 

Unfortunately my Husband and I got into debt due to me having to look after my terminally ill father and my Husband whos health is deteriorating.

 

We owe money to BoS Two CC = £20,000 (paying one to Apex Credit Management £60 monthly)

and overdraft account £2,989

 

contacted bank to offer reduced payments to CC but they refused and refused to accept £100 to overdraft account which they withdrew after many years, of being a loyal customer (it's true what they say they kick harder when you are down)

 

also have store cards debts who have now transferred them over to Debt Collections.

 

I have sent one letter to West Midlands Debt asking them to provided me with a Credit Agreement for Etam Account

I sent this on 30 March 2009 to date have not had any reply except for demanding letters saying I am ignoring their requests

however I have telephoned them and written to them stating that I would like them to send me original Agreement...what should I do ?

How many days have I got to give them to answer.

And what do i do if they dont answer?

 

I am trying to deal with this on a one to one basis as I have not been able to cope over the past year or so.

We do own our own home and have nearly had it repossessed however have come to agreement with mortgage company to pay of arrears and cannot miss any payments.

 

PLEASE PLEASE IS THERE ANYBODY WHO CAN HELP US.

[cds]

just asked a moderator to have a look at your post sure somebody will be along shortly

 

cds

[citizenB]

Have moved your thread to the Debt collection forums where you will attract more notice.

[harrassed senior]

Hi, and welcome to CAG

 

To get the maximum help you will need to start seperate threads for each account (don't worry that there are too many - we all started off drowning in debt and not knowing which way to turn, and we don't judge on here).

 

If you would decide which is your most urgent case you would like us to look at, use this thread for that.

 

Now, you may have already given the information I am going to request, but it helps us to have a starting point.

 

GOLDEN RULES: we strongly advise that you do not answer any more phone calls from anyone in connection with your debts, request all contact in writing and put the 'phone down.

 

We need to know:

 

Type of debt - Credit Card/overdraft/ etc.

 

We need to know a rough start date and date of last payment

 

Name of Original Creditor (OC) and Debt Collection Agency (DCA).

 

Once we have that there will be plenty alonge with help and information to get you started.

[twofoot]

Don't get upset about debt. There is always a way. Main thing is to pay your mortgage and utility bills. Unsecured credit cards and loans can wait. Let us have the details of your debts (more details the better) and start a new thread for each one, keeping this tread for the main debt. That way you will get better reponse for help. We have all been there and come through remarkably well and in a few months time you'll be feeling so much better.

[lilly white]

O YES THERE IS PLEASE BREAK DOWN EACH ONE AS OTHER CAGGERS HAVE ASK FOR.

[citizenB]

You say you have sent a CCA request to Etam's. Did you send the £1.00 fee with this and did you send the letter recorded delivery ?

 

If you have still not received anything then you need to send them a non compliance letter which is in the following link.

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/571-failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale.html

 

In my signature you will find a link copies of other letters that you might find useful, such as telephone harrasment, doorstep visits, etc. However, we will deal with each situation as it arises so as not to overload you with information.

 

At the very least, any letters you send should now be sent recorded delivery so you have proof of posting and can check when the company received your letters.

[24233513afw]

Hi citizenB Many thanks for your replies...

yes I sent £1.00 P.O. and sent it recorded mail they received it on 3rd April 2009 when would you suggest sending non compliance letter.

 

I have also in turn sent requests to Credit cards today to get fees refunded however not sure if I have done this correctly as one of the Credit Cards B of S Mastercard is being collected by Apex credit management and I have been paying them £60 for the past 3 months.

 

What you do when you are so frightened by these debt collecting agencies without thinking I have just found this site but finding it hard to operate.

 

ONCE AGAIN MAY THANKS FOR ANY HELP - YOU R DOING A WONDERFUL JOB - BET YOU HAVE SAVED SOME PEOPLE FROM DEBT MISERY OVER THE YEARS - KEEP IT UP WHAT WOULD WE DO WITHOUT DECENT PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF.

[citizenB]

Hi , okey dokey, in that case if they received it on 3rd April you should have received a response.... today You can leave sending the non compliance letter for a couple of days if you wish. But IMHO, the sooner sent the the better.

 

Right, lets find you a non compliance letter....

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/571-failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale.html

 

The first sentence in this letter is

 

"Thank you for your letter dated xxx xxx, the contents of which have been noted". You can delete that. As it looks as though they have just ignored your request, is that correct ?

[24233513afw]

Hi everyone who has helped me over the past few days...

 

I have now received a blank copy of Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 stating that

"Due to a system anomaly, a copy of the signed agreement cannot be retrieved however under the Consumer Credit Act I can supply you with a true copy which is enclosed".

 

This was sent from Creation Fianancial Services Ltd., in connection with my Etam Store Card.

 

Unfortunately I cannot get this copied just now so cannot put onto forum

 

This is consisting of 4 sheets of A5 paper fully photocopied but blank.

 

This debt is now being collected by West Midlands Debt Collections who passed on my CCA request to Creation.

Can anybody advise me what to do now......

 

Also Barclaycard sent me a card saying somebody was going to visit me today up till now no one has appeared (Thank goodness as I was not looking forward to them coming).

 

Any help would greatly appreciated.

Remembering I am in Scotland, dont know if this makes a difference with CCA.

Cheers:?

 

Oh dear, oh dear. A blank copy hmmmm, I dont think so. Without your signature how does that prove you signed an agreement ?

 

Send them the letter in the following link.. erm, dont sign it PRINT YOUR NAME

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/582-possible-letter-when-a-questionable-agreementapplication-is-sent.html

 

Just like B/card.. you buy in extra milk, tea.. get out the best china and they dont arrive..........

 

Would you advise me sending questionable agreement letter to both Creation Finance and West Midland Debt Collections as they are now the ones pursuing me for money. I did sen first letter to MDC but they forwarded on to Creation Finance.

 

Noooo - you deal with the organ grinder, NOT the monkey.

 

You tell the lender you are unhappy and not being provided with the required documentation, as unfortunately a blank agreement doesn't show the terms to which you signed up to.

 

As to the DCA. You are in dispute, and in correspondence with the lender. Therefore, it would not be appropriate to complicate matters by dealing with them, so advise them to refer the matter to their client, as you decline to deal with third parties.

 

Cheers busby, questionable agreement letter on its way to Creation today will keep you all posted. Unfortunately I have a few other companies to deal with but at the present can only cope with one at a time...I wish I had all you forum helpers brain capability to deal with everything. however as they say One Step At A Time.

Many thanks once again.....

 

Actually, the more you have - the less intimidating it all becomes.

 

Get a spiral notebook and keep it by the phone/front door - at any call, jot down the time and date of the caller and who they represent. Don't worry about doing this whilst they wait, as you pedantically jot down all the details of their enquiry.

 

After this, you tell them to politely push off for the reasons stated earlier. (If you do it the other way around, it is difficult to remember all the details once they've gone/hung up).

 

Hi

Me back again....sent creation finance a questional agreement letter 24th April received reply today(29th April) very quick didn't expect that!! here goes..... I can't post their reply as scanner not working trying so hard to get this fixed. Their letter said that

 

"So that you fully understand the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the regulator deem the enclosed document to be a true copy of the credit agreement entered into by you., so consequently a proper response. If you have any queries about this you can take independent advice from local CA, TSDept. or contact consumer direct.

 

We have no legal obligation to supply a copy of the original agreement. Under the Act a true copy suffices.

 

We acknowledge that whilst we failed to supply a copy of the original agreement we were not entitled to enforce the agreement as set out under section 78 of the act. We have not sought to enforce the agreement, however, interest continues to run and the debt continues to be payable. There is no provision in the act for the debt to be written off and you would still owe us the money claimed.

 

Section 78 requires us to provide within 12 working days a "true copy" of the customers agreement (which is the whole agreement without any identifying items such as date address and signature) together with a statement signed by us or on behalf showing according to the information to which it is practicable for us to refer:

 

(a) the state of the account

 

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the customer to us, and

 

© the amounts and the due dates of any payments which, if the customer does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by them to us.

 

Should you require any further information please respond in writing to the Data Protection Dept at the address on the top of the letter".

 

ALSO INCLUDED WAS ANOTHER BLANK CONSUMER CREDIT AGREEMENT 1974 PHOTOCOPY.

On the terms and Agreements photocopy there is statement which says :

 

Card Protection Plan is a registered trademark of Card Protection Plan ltd. CPP is a registered trademark of CPP group plc reg. 2004.

 

This confuses me as I took this store card out approximately 2000-2001. How can something be dated 2004 in 2000-2001.

 

Any help would be appreciated REMEMBERING THIS IS IN SCOTLAND AS I BELIEVE SOME LAWS ARE DIFFERENT - HAVN'T A CLUE WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IS.

 

So as we are all on the same page - what was the reason you required the copy agreement....? Simply for verification of the T&C's, or that if they could provide details of a properly executed agreement, to repudiate it?

 

As to the blank form - clearly this is not the form style you signed back when the agreement was entered into. My reaction is that they continue to disregard your request, and have provided no verifiable proof that any agreement exists between you. They are playing word games - so you simply re-iterate your stance, that unless they can provide the required information, along with a credible copy of the agreement bearing your signature, you will seek will consider the matter at an end

[24233513afw]

Hi busby many thanks for your reply, I have had a lot of trouble with this company, firstly agreeing to accept lower payments, then all of a sudden they told me it had been transferred and I have been trying to explain my situation to West Midlands Debt Collection for sometime now but will they listen

This is when I contacted this forum (by lucky a mistake, I may add) and thought I shall take one step at a time. So I wasn't quite sure what I was expecting when I sent Credit Agreement copy request off. However I am starting to think if they do not have this with my signature on, am I correct in thinking that the ball could be on the other foot for these arrogant people.

You have got me thinking and YES... I think I shall repudiate this agreement/store card I have paid them mega pounds since having this card, I have been very fortunate not to have had late or missed payment in all the years I had it, and when we find ourselves in a bit of financial trouble due to illness they treat you like a piece of dog's dirt/s***e.

Do you have a letter drafted anywhere that could help with my next step which I suppose will be to re-iterate what I have already said and then inform them if they cannot provide me with a signature then I shall consider this matter closed (Although they do state that they do not need to provide a copy with a signature). But when I took this storecard out (I thought 2000-2001) in 2002 but they had 2004 in their terms & conditions.

Many Many thanks for your guidence, your services are priceless to people like me. I hope someday we can all repay you all.

[buzby]

I'm not well up on Debt issues - others may be more up to speed, as there's not too much difference between Scotland and England, but irrespective of their response - that they are 'not required' to provide this information, your tack is that it would be in their best interests to do so as - if they cannot prove satisfactorily to you that they have an agreement with you, they most likely cannot do it in Court.

 

Another point, the Debt Collectors are only the monkeys in the game - you need to deal with the organ grinders - the original finance house. So ask THEM for a copy of hte agreement as you "have a genuine wish to sort this problem amicably, but you hands will be tied if they cannot comply with your request". (Meaning, you'll tell them to sod off and stand your ground). It'll take will-power, but you may find they've sold the debt on, and the DCA is just milking you until you dry up....

[24233513afw]

This is the response from the original finance house (Creation Finance). Thats who I had written to after I had a reply from yourself quoting to deal with the organ grinder and not the monkey. The Organ Grinder being Creation Financial Services and the Monkey being West Mildands Debt Collections.

I shall try and draft another letter to Creation, in the mean time if anybody out there has a letter that can help me to say that if they can't provide me with the details then I shall consider this account closed

[24233513afw]

Hi everyone thought I would give you an update on my CCA requests.

Requested CCA from West Midlands Debt Collections who passed this on to Creation Financial Services.

On the 23rd April I received a BLANK copy of an agreement plus terms and agreement with a 2004 date on them considering I took this out in 2002 I cant understand why it would have this date in its terms and conditions - I would obviously think this was not a true copy - Wolud Appreciate anyones opinion.

On the 24th APril I then sent a second letter (Questionable Agreement)oto Creation Financial Services.

29th April again they just sent me a Blank Agreement back with covering letter.

Now today 5th May I receive a letter from West Midlands Debt Collections (who were trying to collect this mney from me) stating that they are ready to proceed in court for a County Court Judgement against me for this debt £2,209.

Has anybody any suggestions what to do now, I am afraid because we own our house but due to my Husband disability and health we could not get another mortgage and rented accomodation were we are is few and far between if they try to make us sell or bankrupt me.

I AM REALLY SCARED, PLEASE CAN ANYBODY HELP.

[cerberusalert]

Calm down & don't be scared. For a start if they are depending on what they have sent you hell will freeze over before they would win a court judgement....that's if they were stupid enough to try.

 

They are doing what DCAs do best, threatening & bullying in the hope that you'll cave in and pay them.

 

I'd be tempted to send them Scots letter below & see what their response is;

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

 

My request remains outstanding. The items you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. It neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

 

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until XX/XX/2008 to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

 

Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

Print name do not sign

 

**amend to suit your circumstances.**

[citizenB]

I will try and find someone who has knowledge of the procedures in Scotland for you.

[citizenB]

Apoolgies, cerberusalert , you just slipped past me

[IdaInFife]

you can send cerbs letter but i would be more inclined to send them this to show exactly why you are disputing their application form (although both are enuff the same)

 

Dear Sirs,

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement with no personal details on it, like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

You had until xx/xx.2008 (12+2 working days after the request was made) to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 + 2 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation.

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

I expect you to write to me confimring that the account has been closed and no further action will be taken.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully

 

Ida x

[citizenB]

Thanks for popping in Ida.. I am unable to tip your scales. apparently I have to spread it around a bit

[IdaInFife]

No problem and I'm sure you won't have too much problem with the spreading:p

 

Ida x

[24233513afw]

Sorry for not getting back to you all yesterday - my head was full of mince just couldn't get my brain to work. (Its terrible that worry can override everything else in the brain.

 

Today, I have sent your letter ida (no offence to cerbs letter) I wish I could sit and comply letters like you peole do (Talking about debt, I shall be in debt to all on this forum until the day I die, by the time I am finsished how will I repay them. I believe there is a donation site, still to find how to do it as every little would help you all continue to be asset to people like me).

 

Anyway stop blabbling and get on wiith it.... I sent Idas letter to Creation Finance today also a lettter to West Midlands Debt Collections stating to contact Creation to find out the position. Fingers crossed for what comes back.

 

Now.. I have been trying to take one step at time here and don't know if I should open a new thread as I have just sent Robinson Way a CCA it is for a loan I took out with BoS which was seemingly transfered to GE Money (dont know why as the account was okay then as we didnt have financial trouble then). Was paying GE Money until we found it too hard to pay asked for reduced payments and they refused then we heard from Robinson way, I have made a some payments to Robinson way, they are extremely rude people to deal with. This was in APril 2004 for £10K loan originally with BoS but still has a balance of approx £3,000 some of this was charges from GE Money. Don't want to give too much away because I have been told Debt Collections Agency read this forum.

 

You all make my day a bit brighter when I come on to this forum.....please please please continue to be here for us.

[IdaInFife]

Hi,

 

We donlt compose well most of us donlt we owe it to peeps like 42mand and Rory and all the others that have constructed and updated a letters available.

 

if there is any charges on it then you could claim these back to reduce the amount IF they send something back that's enforceable etc.

 

I would wait until RW send something back and them start a thread for that one to keep things simple.

 

Ida x

[24233513afw]

Ta Ida, for all your help. I shall let you all know when RW reply. Fingers, Legs and Toes crossed.

Forgot to say, I do know for a fact now, that the Blank copy CCA that Creation Finance sent me is definately not a true copy.

Got some more letter writting to do and going to read up on the forum to see if I can help anybody out there. It makes you feel so much better just being on the forum, everybody is so nice and helpful.

[24233513afw]

HI EVERYONE NEW UPDATE.... After sending Idas letter of non compliance to CCa (this is the second letter) I also sent a copy to West Midlands Debt Collection who has been hasseling me for payment of this account. Yesterday I received a letter from West Midlands Debt Colection saying "That after checking with Creation they are satisfied that I have received a true copy of my CCA and as such collection actions will continue on my account and will proceed with action against me if I do not pay up. Anybody any idea which way I turn now.

[buzby]

Why not tell them that it is their decision to disregard the information you have provided, and leaves them open to a formal complaint of harassment.

 

You should also add that as the original customer of their client, you have not had the benefit of receiving a a 'true' copy of the executed CCA regulated agreement, one that neither bears your signature, nor indeed any signature. Therefore, it does not meet the requirements laid down by the Act, and you recommend that they do more than blindly accept the erroneous assertion from Creation.

 

You advise that due to this non-compliance, the debt is still disputed, and should they continue to attempt to harass you, you will have no hesitation advising the Regulator of their unwillingness to adhere to industry guidelines.

 

Before they (WM) attempt to continue their involvement in this matter, you urge that they too may wish to seek that verifiable proof of such an agreement physically exists, as you have been singularly unsuccessful in obtaining this.

 

In the absence of such proof, WM should be advised that the account will remain in dispute until the relevant documents are provided, and to cease all communications with you until the relevant documentation is provided.

 

Send it by the Signed For Royal Mail service, keep a copy, and stable the posting receipt to it.