Orange - what a swiz!

[hillards]

I've been an Orange customer for many years. For most of that time there have been two phones on one contract, mine and my wife's.

 

We 'upgraded' last November, 18 month contract, both phones changed, something we've done every 12/18 months for some time. We took advice on packages and saw that by changing to one with unlimited landline calls we would save money.

 

Until the bills started to arrive that is. One contract remember, always has been, but now they charge for non-direct debit for each phone! - I'm only putting this here to highlight this penalty charge anomaly for others who may be in the same siutation.

 

I'm a community project worker, I get paid at different times of the month, depending on when certain bits of project income comes in. Direct Debit isn't an option as that needs to be a fixed date, and there have been months when I've not been paid, at all.

 

When I pay, it's by debit card. I do all the keying in of card number and so on, so they can't say it's costing them for an operator to take the payment.

 

My objection is that I pay it all as one bill, they charge two amounts, one per phone, for non-DD - and I say that stinks!

 

I've written to Orange, their Darlington team say it's correct. How on earth can they justify this sort of thing? One bill, one payment, but two penalty charges for not conforming and setting up Direct Debit - unhappy, but seems I can do nothing about it...

[sneaksms]

Sorry, but from having been pretty much just a lurker here for a while, I was sure I'd read that these charges are unfair and you are entitled to claim them back?

 

In particular, Virgin Media's non DD charges. Would it not be the same here?

[hillards]

Orange say no, it's in their T's & C's that were accepted at the time I signed the new contract.

 

I feel a letter to the OFT coming on as I don't like being conned into things like this, especially from a company I've been with for years.

 

One bill, one charge - it may not be much per month, it's the principal.

 

 

I'm also with Virgin Media, I must have missed whatever it was that gets people out of their (allegedly unfair) DD charges.

[sneaksms]

Hmm, here are the threads I was thinking about but they don't actually seem to back up what I thought. Certainly that they are unfair, but unenforceable I'm not so sure about.

 

Worth a read anyway though I'd say

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telecoms-mobile-fixed-internet/74802-penalties-not-paying-direct.html

 

And this one

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telecoms-mobile-fixed-internet/148879-mo-virgin-media-refund.html

[hillards]

Letters to the OFT, Ofcom and my MP.

 

A charge for paying by methods other than DD, which allows them to empty my bank account at will if they wish, is one thing. Charging twice for one account is just not on.

 

I've had Orange take two payment sin one month before, there's no way I will ever let them have Direct (Debit) access to my account again, even if I was in a position to do that. I'm not.

[locutus]

Orange say no, it's in their T's & C's that were accepted at the time I signed the new contract. Didn't we hear that exact same line with bank charges? It's in our T & C so it's fair?

 

I feel a letter to the OFT coming on as I don't like being conned into things like this, especially from a company I've been with for years.

 

One bill, one charge - it may not be much per month, it's the principal.

 

 

I'm also with Virgin Media, I must have missed whatever it was that gets people out of their (allegedly unfair) DD charges.

 

Try these guys Message from Orange Customer Response team

 

(The guy who normally visits CAG is Jonathan of the Orange Response Team put that in the subject, include your mobile numbers and account number and a link to this thread and see if he comes up with anything.

Edited May 2, 2010 by locutus

[hillards]

Thanks locutus

 

I did see that earlier, but forgot about it when I started to type...

 

Worth a try I guess. Letters are already in the post box, so no going back on the complaint part.

[hillards]

Response from Orange:

 

Thank you for your email.

 

Further to your contact with our Correspondence Department, I understand that you are unhappy at being charged multiple non-DD charges on the same account.

I confirm that it is our policy to charge a non-DD charge per phone per

month, even if there is more than one phone on the account. The charge is

applied automatically to the subscription.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

Jonathan

Orange Response Team

I have replied by asking how they can justify a charge like this - one bill, one payment - but they charge for non DD twice. If that isn't an unfair term then I don't know what is!

[MARTIN3030]

What sort of figures in total are we talking of here ?

 

A few VM customers (or ex) have claimed the non direct debit fees but these have in the main been supplimented by late payment charges which has made a claim worthwhile.

 

Have you got the figures ?

I suggest inviting them to give you a breakdown of their charges,which demonstrates them to be fair and a genuine pre estimate of what it costs them.

Of course they will not comply-but it gets you on the ladder to take it further-of course assuming its cost effective.

[MARTIN3030]

By the way-dont deal by email.

If you want help with this-then pm me.

I will help you get the ball rolling on the understanding that it will all be reported here when considered ok.

[locutus]

Ask Orange to send you a "DEADLOCK" letter. That's basically a letter saying they are unwilling to go any further and you can complain to an independent body (CISAS in the case of Orange) but I also think this would be a nice letter to have if you do take things to court. It shows you tried to resolve the problem with Orange.

[Human Writes]

I have replied by asking how they can justify a charge like this - one bill, one payment - but they charge for non DD twice. If that isn't an unfair term then I don't know what is!

 

The charge applies per contract not per account, if you have two phones on one account then you have two contracts so they can charge the fee twice in accordance with the contracts you agreed.

 

There has been a case in which one person claimed that the charges were unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations - she lost, the judge ruled these charges "were fair and perfectly lawful"

 

BBC NEWS | England | West Midlands | BT customer loses case on charges

 

Whilst this decision had no precedential effect, I'm not aware of any other people who have been sucessful in reclaiming these charges in court.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Human Writes
Typos

[Human Writes]

Of course they will not comply-but it gets you on the ladder to take it further-of course assuming its cost effective.

 

The charge is £3.00 or £3.50 per contract per month I think.

 

They wouldn't have to provide this information in relation to a written request, the only reason they may have to provide it would be in relation to legal proceedings and even then you can guess that they'd be in no hurry to disclose it.

[hillards]

Orange have responded:

 

Further to my email of 4 May, I have reassessed your case and would like to provide an update.

 

I fully appreciate your comments about multiple charges on the same account. Even though it is a current policy, as you have been an extremely valued long standing customer, the charge for 07xxx xxxxxx from this point onwards has been waived.

 

Unlike the lady solicitor who complained about BT imposing an unfair charge, this is not about the initial charge for paying the bill by other means, but the fact that they imposed it twice, for one account.

 

My letters had already been sent to Ofcom and the OFT, plus my (pending renewal of contract) MP. I do see it is an unfair term, and cannot see how any company can justify charging one customer twice for one bill. Crazy!

 

I'm waiting for a bit of info, but may well be asking for a refund of the charges made to date.

[locutus]

Nice result so far. Keep us informed. My advice of asking for a "DEADLOCK" letter stands, a complaint to CISAS would cost Orange money and it may be cheaper and easier for them to just refund you (As a gesture of goodwill as you are such a loyal valued customer of course .)

[hillards]

My advice of asking for a "DEADLOCK" letter stands

A bit to go yet before reaching that stage. They are talking to me, things are being done, it depends how far they want to please their valued customer I guess.

 

I've had dealing with the Exec office before and they were very good to me at the time. Somehow, I think this will get sorted, rather than reach deadlock. They won't issue a letter until then of course.

[MARTIN3030]

The charge is £3.00 or £3.50 per contract per month I think.

 

They wouldn't have to provide this information in relation to a written request, the only reason they may have to provide it would be in relation to legal proceedings and even then you can guess that they'd be in no hurry to disclose it.

 

 

Of course they wouldnt provide it-we have seen this with the Banks,Credit Card Issuers and the rest.

They will say that its commercially sensitive.

Continuing dialogue if they are showing some response is not a bad idea.

Lets not forget-their stance and attitudes are not because they dont want to refund you in principle-they are prob fearful of being inunidated by others if they can see your thread here-this is what happened with VM.

They were making refunds and out of Court settlements without too much fuss-but once word got around they decided to make a stand.

[hillards]

Continuing dialogue if they are showing some response is not a bad idea.

Which is the way I'm heading. I have a couple of cards up my sleeve yet. I'm not trying to break their company or sue them for millions, I just want what's right - for me of course.

 

There is something else that's not been considered yet, but I'll keep that out of the open forum for now, until I play the cards and see if they come up trumps. Nothing sneaky, just something that I had not really considered until now, but is perfectly valid in my case. Once I've done it I'll explain more.

[hillards]

Card played - involves Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, specifically 6.1(a) and possibly 6.3(a)

 

I look forward to their reply and, in the interests of transparency, have given them the link back here. I'm not hiding anything I'm saying on here to them ;-)

Edited May 6, 2010 by hillards
ti-po

[hillards]

And... - they play nice and offer a credit to my account as I am 'such a long standing customer', this is equal to the amount that the refund would have been but is actually a gesture of goodwill. In effect, it's pre-paid my monthly bill for the next 3 months.

 

They have retained the non-DD fee on one of the two lines on my account, which can be removed by setting up a direct debit. I had already sent letters off to OfCom and the OFT, plus my MP, so I'll let those run their course I think.

 

I do object to the non-DD charge in any form and will see what happens.

 

Otherwise, as far as removing the second non-DD charge, and getting it backdated - Result!

 

To explain the Ace played - I had been a business customer for several years, same two lines throughout. On advice of the Orange team, I swapped to domestic last time, as the new tariff was better for us overall. But, they did not explain anything about this non-DD charge, which does not apply to business accounts, or send a new set of Terms and Conditions. They couldn't really argue with that, hence the use of CPUT in this case, and the no quibble credit.

 

If you're sure of your facts, state them and make sure the company you are dealing with understands just why you are asking them to look at your account. I have seen samples of people just sending a one-liner "I want my money back" and hoping the person reading it is an expert in ESP...

 

[MARTIN3030]

Very good.

 

On the subject of Orange response-I did send them an email inviting them to give an undertaking that they would comply with site rules,and to give an idea of their objectives in being a CAG member,following them making a couple of posts here.

 

This was in January......I am still waiting for a reply !