Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
    • The private submersible industry was shaken after the implosion of the OceanGate Titan sub last year.View the full article
    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

No Original CCA - Solicitor Claiming Carey Case Means Don't Need It???


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 5012 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I have a case that has gone on for some time and is due to be heard soon. But I have recently found out that they do not have an original credit agreement.

 

I have been sent what appears to be a copy of a signed agreement and terms. But when I asked to inspect the originals, I have been told that the creditor (Sainsbury's) do not have the original but that the Carey vs HSBC case means that they don't need one.

 

I think this is a bluff. But the Carey case is a recent one so may have an effect?

 

I think Carey only deals with s77/s78 requests whereas not having an original agreement is concerned with s127.

 

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about this? Is the solicitor bluffing. What should I do now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If they're taking you to court as the claimant (which they would be), then they do need one.... as this is the basis of their claim against you.

 

The Carey case involved the creditor as the defendant which was a completely different ball game...

 

Nice try though... ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Angry_Cat and PriorityOne. What would be my next steps...

 

The solicitors have written to me to explain that Sainsbury's would have taken a microfliche of the front of the (alleged) agreement and not kept the rest. Hence they are only able to produce a copy.

 

We have to exchange witness statements very shortly.

 

Should I ask the court to dismiss the case or strike out the claim on the basis that the claim is based on a copy agreement which cannot be verified as a true copy?

 

Or should I put in my witness statement that since they do not have an original copy there is no agreement with my signature and so court cannot enforce unser s127?

 

Also what should I do about costs incurred. They have only very recently given me the information that there is no original and I have incurred considerable costs over the period of the claim (I had a solicitor looking at this until I lost my job and could not pay him).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Angry_Cat and PriorityOne. What would be my next steps...

 

The solicitors have written to me to explain that Sainsbury's would have taken a microfliche of the front of the (alleged) agreement and not kept the rest. Hence they are only able to produce a copy.

 

We have to exchange witness statements very shortly.

 

Should I ask the court to dismiss the case or strike out the claim on the basis that the claim is based on a copy agreement which cannot be verified as a true copy?

 

Or should I put in my witness statement that since they do not have an original copy there is no agreement with my signature and so court cannot enforce unser s127?

 

Also what should I do about costs incurred. They have only very recently given me the information that there is no original and I have incurred considerable costs over the period of the claim (I had a solicitor looking at this until I lost my job and could not pay him).

 

The legal arena is not my field, as such... but they appear to have kindly confirmed that they don't have the original, so I imagine you would need to include something referring to that fact.... and Sec. 127 (3).

 

:)

Link to post
Share on other sites

They had to admit that they do not have an original because I asked to inspect the originals after they listed them in their disclosure.

 

I guess what I'm trying to work out at the moment is, do I just put this in as additional information in my witness statement or can I get the case dismissed before the trial.

 

Is there anyone with enough legal experience who could give guidance as to what the best legal option is?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi there

have just got back from court where we lost today. Bank confirmed they had no original agreement and supplied photocopied front and back. Cos it had our sig and personal details on it, plus the core terms, judge deemed it to be enforceable. Carey was also mentioned today.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This doesn't sound good!

 

I thought that the claimant had to produce the original agreement in court.

 

Any comment from the legally minded.

 

I mentioned this and the judge just rode roughshod over my objection and said that as it had OH personal details on it, plus T/Cs on the back, it was good enough for him to prove that we had signed it and spent the money.

 

If you want to get into other CPR arguments, he didn't agree that their failure to comply with 4 court orders earlier held any water:eek:

Link to post
Share on other sites

This doesn't sound good!

 

I thought that the claimant had to produce the original agreement in court.

 

Any comment from the legally minded.

 

alas the act says only that they "should" produce the original in court and not "must"

 

however- i suspect that perhaps the counter argument against their reference to carey was absent or not presented properly - so all is not necessarily lost

 

comments in that case with reference to enforcing agreements are likely to have been orbiter dicter

Link to post
Share on other sites

alas the act says only that they "should" produce the original in court and not "must"

 

however- i suspect that perhaps the counter argument against their reference to carey was absent or not presented properly - so all is not necessarily lost

 

comments in that case with reference to enforcing agreements are likely to have been orbiter dicter

 

Sorry this might be going a bit over my head diddy.

 

a) What is the counter argument to Carey?

b) Comments in the [Carey?] case are orbiter dicter. As in should be used as guidance not as a rule?

c) Without the original is the court taking it on trust that the copy has not been tampered with in any way? Can they do that?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry this might be going a bit over my head diddy.

 

a) What is the counter argument to Carey?

b) Comments in the [Carey?] case are orbiter dicter. As in should be used as guidance not as a rule?

c) Without the original is the court taking it on trust that the copy has not been tampered with in any way? Can they do that?

 

a/ that it was a case brought by the debtor against the creditor and concerned only provision of a copy of agreement under s77/79 (information given to debtor) - the burden of proof therefore being on the debtor

 

b/ orbiter dicter -(IMO) is not guidance in that case but comments made on matters which are referred to- but not part of that action - in other words they are an "aside" - they are a pain in the arse IMO and it would be better if the judge kept his gob shut and dealt only with the matters at hand

 

c/ yes- they work on the basis (fools) that the banks, being large national bodies - would not stoop so low as to attempt the deceive anyone

Link to post
Share on other sites

If they don't have the original agreement what they have produced is Hearsay Evidence.

 

Hearsay Evidence is covered by the Civil Evidence Act 1985 (see s4.1) and is weighted on probability accordingly. The point will then be decided on a 'balance of probability.'

 

I would have thought you would want to cross examine the person giving any Witness statement about the agreement.

 

e.g. did they personal who gave the WS (Witness Statement) have knowledge of the document in question e.g. did they handle it ? Where were they working at the time the agreement was made ? (e.g. if it turns out they were still at school then it's game over), how many agreements a week do handle ? What was so special about your agreement that they should remember handling it after all this time ? If the agreement was destroyed is there a certificate of Destruction ? Who witnessed it's destruction ? Who witnessed the copying of the original document ? is there an audit trail for the document retention and managment since ?

 

There are international and BSI guidelines on best practice for electronic document and retention for legal admissibility in Court. Here's a link

See section 3 of the doc on that link.

Edited by Sagittarius
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

See also point (e) here

 

Also these comments on cross examination by X20.

 

Also these important comments by X20 (Claimant must have served a notice under CPR 33.2 if they are going to rely upon Hearsay Evidence. You must also serve a notice under CPR 32.19 if you require them to proved copy docs in Court - otherwise you are deemed to admit authenticity)

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks all of you guys. For various reasons, I've not been able to reply earlier.

 

This stuff looks like it could definitely be relevant to my case.

 

In addition, I think they have another problem in that they have admitted that they do not have a copy of the back of the agreement! They just have a copy of the front and a reconstituted agreement (which had the wrong interest rate on it the first time they sent it to me).

 

I will follow up the various links you have all left me and post any developments.

 

Thanks...

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

Hi, not wishing to hijack this thread but my case is fairly identical and I have returned from Court last week having managed to obtain a reserved judgement on a Summary Judgement (brought by our friends Restons on behalf of MBNA) where Restons now have to produce a copy of an executed agreement with both signatures. So my information may possibly help.

 

I will be posting up my own thread shortly as I need help on a Skeleton Argument I now have to present when we are back in court. Let me first say that I had read how much of a lottery going to court was on here but it shocks you just how much that lottery is when you get there (this is both good and bad and I will explain further on my thread) .

 

Basically, the judge accepted MBNA had a signed agreement (I was following DickyDicky's argument that what they had was an application form but this was rejected) but he was clearly unhappy when I stated the agreement was dated the 24th of the month, wasn't executed as required by the CCA 1974 (having just my signature and also no box for the Creditor signature) when Restons were claiming in their evidence that the executed agreement was dated the 26th of the month and it was pointed out no such document had been brought in evidence showing both signatures as required to be executed?

 

Carey was mentioned by the young solicitor (maybe trainee barrister) acting for Restons saying they didnt need one under S78, but I managed to waffle that S78 was only relevant to what the creditor had to supply under a S78 request (ie when you send a £1 asking for a copy) and not if a Creditor was trying to bring a claim that his agreement was enforceable. I was on a wing and a prayer by this time (as will be explained in my thread) but, luckily for me, this was accepted by the judge and the Young Solicitor obviously didnt know if this was correct or not (as it wasn't argued I was talking B******!)

 

So I managed to muddy the waters enough (which is what the information I had gleaned was best to do in a Summary Judgement to stop judgement being given with a signed agreement) for the judge to reserve his judgement until Restons came up with the document they were referring to as being signed on the 26th which Restons were arguing was available but MBNA just hadnt found it yet? So hopefully they will Discontinue now as they obviously havent got a copy of that document or it would have been rammed down my throat at court?

 

I will post here what happens when I return to court but my advice is don't back down until you have put your point across to the judge but do bang him over the head relentlessly (as I did) that signed or not, the agreement has to be proven to be properly executed or the CCA 1974 states a court can't enforce if its not.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...