Credit Ref Agency reply to DPA s.12 request-help please

[Tinkerbelle]

James is here of his own free will, and I think that we should speak to him in a respectful manner and him likewise to us.

 

By all means ask a question, but there is no point in being antagonistic. It only defeats the whole purpose of why we are all here, and that is to share information/advice and to support each other.

 

If James believes that we are being hostile, then there is the strong possibility that he will no longer contribute.

 

We all know what the law states, so we should not envisage using James as the "whipping boy" for ALL the CRA's.

 

Having said all that, James how about answering a few of the questions posted earlier?

 

Tinks

[Tinkerbelle]

See Data Protection Act S7.

 

And here is the link to Section 7

[saxon]

hello, James J, can you answer me in plain simple terms,(I'm not the brightest bulb on the xmas tree)

 

If you are the gatherer of information, public and private, I sign a form to say joe bloggs can access my file for credit reasons, ie, name, address, D.O.B. and any other public stuff, why do you give them my private information?

 

What I mean is If I tell John something that is common to all (if they look for it), and I allow Bob else to ask John about it, I don't expect John to tell Bob anything else.

 

I know what I'm trying to say

[JamesJ]

All the data we collect is relevant to the financial standing of individuals in accordance with the definition of a credit reference agency under the Consumer Credit Act - public or private.

 

When you give Joe Bloggs permission to check your credit report, if he provides (private) credit account data about his customers to the database, as well as public info, he will also see details of your private data (past and present) from other lenders. What I'm trying to say is, only lenders who share private data about their customers can themselves access private data to help them process new applications.

 

I'm afraid I don't know John or Bob

 

James

[jamesbond]

surely if you have not supplied the data requested within seven days you have breeched that act? i cannot see anywhere that you are allowed to make further checks other than reasonable as in the dpa, it states quite clearly that the information you require only to to ascertain the data owners file, i.e address and names and if moved recently a previous address? and i feel that as a person who is well up within the realms of experian and on your own admission their spokesperson you really should be totally conversant with the data protection act and consumer credit laws, as your business is established within this field. at the end of the day i beleive that mostly you carry out a just a useful requirement, but we must maintain that these bodies who use and control our data are there for our purpose as much as your customers and without our data yours would be a difficult business to run..so please respect our rights as it appears under the laws and act with us as consumers instead of trying to blank us with unfounded statements..as was stated earlier we are bound by the same laws as are you, and the internet revolution is unfortunately making the general public aware of rights which we were previously denied access to.this site comprises i beleive of 60,000 plus members and to be honest i think that you will be there first port of call in any actions for their defences,so embrace them as they are your business.

[andrew1]

Please play nicely people. There is no need for hostilities.

 

Me Tinks - hostile? ....neveeeeeer! just a game of questions and answers

[jamesbond]

i have found the section under the dpa as copied below.

 

(3) A data controller is not obliged to comply with a request under this section unless he is supplied with such information as he may reasonably require in order to satisfy himself as to the identity of the person making the request and to locate the information which that person seeks.

 

surely a credit card order in that name and having been on the electoral roll for 5 years at the adress ordered from is reasonable satisfaction? as i said i received my information from experian with a 2 pounds postal order far quicker than you supplied mine using my credit card? i can understand if i had moved in the last two years of this request, but five years at this address ? this does not sound reasonable to me unfortunately...whilst i appreciate you have a duty to protect my data, i feel the documentation you requested was in my case, not required to be reasonably satisfied as that had already been supplied. on the second point the documentation you ask for is highly sensitive and there are no guarantees on its safe return and could open you up to identy theft big time if that documentation were to get in the wrong hands through loss or whatever means...so perhaps this should be given some thought.

[JamesJ]

surely if you have not supplied the data requested within seven days you have breeched that act? i cannot see anywhere that you are allowed to make further checks, it states quite clearly that the information you require only to to ascertain the data owners file, i.e address and names and if moved recently a previous address? and i feel that as a person who is well up within the realms of experian and on your own admission there spokesperson you really should be totally conversant with the data protection act and consumer credit laws, as your business is established within this field. at the end of the day i beleive that mostly you carry out a just a useful requirement, but we must maintain that these bodies who use and control our data are there for our purpose as much as your customers and without our data yours would be a difficult business to run..so please respect our rights as it appears under the laws and act with us as consumers instead of trying to blank us with unfounded statements..as was stated earlier we are bound by the same laws as are you, and the internet revolution is unfortunately making the general public aware of rights which we were previously denied access to.this site comprises i beleive of 60,000 plus members and to be honest i think that you will be there first port of call in any actions for their defences,so embrace them as they are your business.

 

Jamesbond

 

We have run a consumer education programme for ten years and we very much encourage people to get to grips with the credit-granting and credit reference process, understand their rights and look after their credit histories. That's why we spend so much time on education projects and why I am in a job.

 

We are allowed to take steps verify a credit report applicant's identity under in section 7 subsection 3.

 

James

[jamesbond]

thanks for that info james1..if you read above you will see i have posted regarding this...on a good note it is excellent that you have chosen to come on here freely and spend time with the community, i feel this can be said from everyones point of view..please remember we are only here to defend our rights as consumers and ensure that everything is complied with from all bodies who use our data. at the end of the day we have rights and as long as everyone complies with those rights there would be no cause for complaint or redress.

it is our data and we will demand our rights are excercised on how it is applied, so please make room in your business to allow us to excercise those rights and work with us within the laws laid down..it really is that easy.

[saxon]

Hello again, so I understand that it's a case of you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours?

 

So the way I now see it, it's now I'll tell you my secrets, you tell me yours.

 

Therefore what is private and personal, you will tell whoever who asks for it. (not you personally)

 

NOW I'm annoyed.

[JamesJ]

I understand your concerns as I too am a very conscientious and demanding consumer. As a responsible business we do take on board the constructive comments people make and we positively encourage feedback, which you'll see from our website, literature, and the regular (six-monthly) surveys we conduct. When we last asked, nearly 90% of people (applying for copies of their credit report) rated our service as either good or excellent, which is not at all bad. Still plenty of room for improvement though.

 

James

[Number6]

I still don't see a reference to any Act or Statute that tells me why the CRA's are allowed to divulge my private data without my explicit (not implied) consent?

[JamesJ]

No Saxon, lenders have agreed to share customer records with each other, with your consent, to promote responsible lending. It's not sinister, surreptitious or underhanded at all. National consumer groups support this data sharing because it helps lenders avoid lending to people who aren't likely to repay. The UK model is very highly regarded around the world as it works very well for both lenders and consumers!

[jamesbond]

correct worcester am in agreement there...

 

also why are you disclosing data when a contract is terminated, thereby anulling your permission to process that data...can you answer this for us james?

[jamesbond]

as far as i am aware i have never given any permission to disclose data upon termination of an agreement that is not in the public domain or on the order of a court, so by sharing that unlawfully applied data are you not in breech of the data protection act, and in return providing incorrect information that may cause distress or hardship.as stated many times on this site when an agreement terminates so does your right to disclose data terminate with it?

[andrew1]

Andrew.

 

So far as I can see if you apply for credit then by signing for T&C's you give permission for the lender to a) search your credit file and b) divulge the information that you give to the lender to the CRA.

 

Nowhere that I can see do we give permission to the CRA to give a lender or prospective lender information that other lenders have previously given the CRA. In other words the "credit file" that the CRA give to the lender should only contain information legally in the public domain - i.e. CCJ's, IVA's etc. They simply do not have the authority to divulge anything else and it's my gut feeling (my opinion only) that James was told (by the powers that be at Experian) to get his arse onto here to try and put people off. I may be wrong though.

 

Pete

 

 

Worcester,

 

If you refer to your point of concern above and then take what James is saying here:

 

" No Saxon, lenders have agreed to share customer records with each other, with your consent, to promote responsible lending.

 

.....one would be mistaken for thinking that actually CRA's are owned by the banks etc and used as a clearing house for our data.

 

The trouble is they arn't! They are private companies and that is why we are having difficulty absorbing this. Perhaps James could comment on that.

[pford]

No Saxon, lenders have agreed to share customer records with each other, with your consent, to promote responsible lending. It's not sinister, surreptitious or underhanded at all. National consumer groups support this data sharing because it helps lenders avoid lending to people who aren't likely to repay. The UK model is very highly regarded around the world as it works very well for both lenders and consumers!

 

as quoted by SB

 

“standard industry practice” does not correlate with “legal right”?

[Number6]

I repeat.... I still see no reference to any Act or Statute that allows the CRA's the legal right to divulge my data without my explicit permission.

 

There's a deafening silence here about that.

[JamesJ]

I repeat.... I still see no reference to any Act or Statute that allows the CRA's the legal right to divulge my data without my explicit permission.

 

There's a deafening silence here about that.

 

Sorry, I went to the cinema to see Snakes on a Plane - thoroughly recommended, unless you really hates snakes that is. If you do, please avoid! :o

 

We and lenders process data in accordance with the Data Protection Act. I've explained where your consent is obtained already. If we were breaking the law in any way, I'm sure we would have been shut down years ago. As I said before, credit reference agencies are very heavily regulated - we process data and there is very strict data protection legilsation in the UK. And that's the way it should be. If you have issues with the legisation, or you think we are breaking it, please contact our regulator. But I'm sure you'll find what we do is entirely above board.

 

We are indepependent from the lenders but, in a way, we do act as a clearing house for the information they share with one another. We maintain the database and lenders pay a fee to access it.

 

Hope you all have a good weekend.

 

James

[jamesbond]

thanks for that reply james..not as thorough as we would like, but at least its a start..perhaps straight answers to questions would benefit everyone from hereon...after being fed questionable information from all avenues including the banks and credit cards for an eternity, it appears that if nobody says anything or challenges something it just keeps going on, lawful or unlawful.. i feel the realms of data relay and cras and the boundaries under which they presume to operate is still in its unchallenged infancy as there are far to many doubts arising about what should and shouldnt be done with our data. we are getting into areas where data processing is becoming increasingly intrusive and suggest in the near future that many challenges will be made about these invasive acts, as i imagine will be the case if/when id cards are introduced and the data they will be pertaining to hold. i forsee there will be drastic ammendments to what is being allowed and what is lawfully allowed to be processed, and a few test cases may need to commence to bring about this change in what cras see as accepted common policy. the data revolution has gone into full swing and consumers are far more aware of the rights and wrongs now, perhaps the banks have done us a favour by making the public realise that everything placed before us is not written in stone and should be accepted without question. i for one think this is a wake up call for all of us...

[andrew1]

 

We and lenders process data in accordance with the Data Protection Act. I've explained where your consent is obtained already. If we were breaking the law in any way, I'm sure we would have been shut down years ago. As I said before, credit reference agencies are very heavily regulated - we process data and there is very strict data protection legilsation in the UK. And that's the way it should be. If you have issues with the legisation, or you think we are breaking it, please contact our regulator. But I'm sure you'll find what we do is entirely above board.

 

 

James, you really beleive that what you are doing is strictly and entirely above board and that is obvious from the sincerity of your answers, but the banks keep telling us they are acting lawfully too and not once have they gone into a court room to defend themselves. It is a plain fact that they are acting unlawfully. What you believe just because it has been done that way for so long sadly cuts little ice with those who are now stripping these laws to their bones and it might just be worth looking at these laws for your own benefit. We do not give the credit reference agencies permission to share our data with others. Whether you believe we do or not fly's in the face of the Data Protection Act and all it says. It has just been accepted that way for so long by the masses everyone comes to think it is true and ' the way it's done'. If you can show us where, in the legislation or contract with the financial institutions that we give the CRA's authority to pass on our data I am sure we will all go away and thank you for your input ( we thank you anyway). You haven't actually answered the question you say you have already answered, or more to the point you are answering the question the way you want to answer it rather than the way it was asked - a bit like a politician.

Never gives a straight answer or say's after being asked a question " no actually the question that needs answering is... and answers his own question never getting to the real question at all.

 

I can see you are trying to help us out here, but there are some finer points which need nailing down before we can let you off the hook.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry 007 I was typing up whilst you were posting above and I hadn't seen your post going in.. same theme though!

[jamesbond]

no probs andrew...i love reading your posts anyway....007

[bevcarlyle]

cant wait to see the outcome of this as I dont see why CRA are entitled to hold info on me and I have to pay to retrieve it!

[david.m]

S12 of the Data Protection Act doesn't refer to how credit reference agencies produce your credit report, it relates to how lenders use this and other information when deciding whether or not to lend. If a particular lender bases their lending decisions solely on credit scoring then you have the right under S12 to have your application reviewed manually - that is all. In fact, most lenders voluntarily did this before this right was added to our data protection legislation in 1998. So I think you are all barking up the wrong tree. If you're in any doubt I suggest you seek advice from the Office of the Information Commissioner.

 

Of course, if information should be removed from a credit report we will happily check with the provider and remove it.

 

James Jones

Experian

 

hello james (James Jones,Experian CRA),

i most say its very nice to see you here, really, welcome.

 

you are fully aware i take it, that generally, we the readers are not trying to be be nasty or anything, you understand we were forced down this road to learn the law to try and stop the individuals that make up these different firms/banks and so on from taking libertys and placeing profit before people?.

 

i think its important to remember , its people that make a company, and its people that bring a company

into disrespect or respect, companys only exist on paper, its people that matter.

 

noone least of all me, begrudge a company making a reasonable profit for a reasonable service, however in light of the current T&C's of the vast majority of the UK companys placing vast amounts of the populas in great hardship with unfair contracts in their favour, banks taking state benefits from the most needy, unlawful charges for not paying by DD (NTL:tw) etc , the list goes on, id hope that you as a resident of the UK, understand, that as we are left with no other options, or protections from big business, to take the route we are now traveling, if perhaps your company and the others were to try and work with us, the average person, things could become better for everyone?, what do you think.

[david.m]

No Saxon, lenders have agreed to share customer records with each other, with your consent, to promote responsible lending. It's not sinister, surreptitious or underhanded at all. National consumer groups support this data sharing because it helps lenders avoid lending to people who aren't likely to repay. The UK model is very highly regarded around the world as it works very well for both lenders and consumers!

 

We are indepependent from the lenders but, in a way, we do act as a clearing house for the information they share with one another. We maintain the database and lenders pay a fee to access it.

 

interesting, can you please point the readers to the price list you charge these lenders for your data services, or do you negotiate a seperate rate fee per lender, £x=1000 requests,and so are only able to give us your estimate of your companys rates/charges,and a brakedown of these costs etc, eather would be fine, the more accurate the better OC.

 

if you happen to also know were to look for the other CRA's prices and brakedown that too would be great and we can then perhaps see your company is infact giving the best value and hence your reasons for getting those awards you refer to above.

 

 

ohh and i realise you said above you have run your education department for 10 years, but to tell you the truth , i at least have never heard of this until i read it in your post, theres never been any tv adverts,radio adds,not even basic booklets in the banks, post offices, or even the law centres/CAB offices for me to see in all these 10 years? (wythenshawe,south manchester{airport}, the largest garden city in europe).

 

can you tell me if your company and perhaps the others are listed on the stock markets and if so were?..details please.