PCN - Box junction

[grey_lady21]

Hi,

 

I've received a PCN from TFL today for 'entering and Stopping in a box junction when prohibited'. I've never done this deliberately and what I think must have happened is that when the lights changed everyone started going over and I assumed that I to, would be able to clear the box and reach the other side - as it was i got caught out, although I may have been inching forward, cant really tell from the images.

 

Is there any way I can get out of this? a 4 hour daily commute through London's traffic is punishment enough surely!

[TheBogsDollocks]

Read this site first and see if it helps you spot any possible defence

 

How to appeal unfair yellow box junction tickets

[grey_lady21]

Thank-you very much for the link, the wording does appear ok, it's very hard to tell from the two photos they've provided that I am stopped as one is close up and the other taken four seconds earlier is from a distance, I can't tell very well but the car does seem to be in a different position in the second photo going by the road markings.

 

So should I write to them as a first step and ask for video evidence of me entering the box and also the video showing that the exit was blocked by a stationary vehicle when I entered? (which it wouldnt have been because I'm sure the car in front would have been moving when I entered)

 

Not sure about getting out and measuring all the angles, distances on the box junction in rush hour tomorrow morning:-)

[lamma]

TfL wording on this is very misleading. and the pictures prove nothing at all. Letter of the Law Money Box Junction

[kwaks]

Can you wash the ticket of personal details and post it up? As for the measuring the box a link to google streetview might give us an indication if the box is compliant (or was at the time of googles survey).

 

Remember the offence is exactly what it says, entering and stopping when prohibited to do so. If it was clear when you entered, then no offence is committed by stopping alone. For example another vehicle may have changed lanes or pulled out from the side which caused you to have to stop.

[lamma]

causing the vehicle to enter etc etc as per thelink above. Big difference. I defy anyone to enter and stop at the same time.

[crem]

causing the vehicle to enter etc etc as per thelink above. Big difference. I defy anyone to enter and stop at the same time.

 

Vertically?

[lamma]

lol. Only if you caused it and the exemptions did not apply etc etc.

[kwaks]

causing the vehicle to enter etc etc as per thelink above. Big difference. I defy anyone to enter and stop at the same time.

 

 

However they argue that the time frame is not limited, so if you enter and decelerate to a stop whilst inside the box....

 

Pics would be good, however the video is a must watch, in case something changed in front of you neccessitating a stop.

[lamma]

their arguments are rubbish. as is the paper the use. Yellow Box Junction - Get it cancelled, exposing fraud

[kwaks]

Oh I fully agree, and have always been tempted to stop in the box when the exit is clear and I plan to turn left or continue straight. There is no offence committed then.

[grey_lady21]

Thanks for the replies everyone and this is the box junction in question,

powys lane, London - Google Maps

 

I've scanned and attached the notice - sorry about the not so good quality.

 

I'm hoping that someone can advise me what to put in my response to the PCN, the traffic was moving forward and I did honestly think that the car in front would keep moving - maybe ideally you wouldnt set off over the junction until the car in front had cleared it but this is the north circ in rush hour, it really is bumper to bumper traffic and if you dont go when you think you can make it, you'd be there for a long time.

 

Looking at the link Lamma posted now.

 

Hhhmm - those attachments are useless, will try again.

Edited February 27, 2010 by grey_lady21

[grey_lady21]

Second attempt at scanning!

TFL10001.pdf

TFL20001.pdf

[grey_lady21]

Third attempt as I thought the pictures didnt come out very well in a jpg form

TFL40001.pdf

[kwaks]

Not the clearest pictures, can you remember if the vehicle in front of you in the second picture was in your lane as you entered? If not you may want to request the video.........in fact where does it say on the PCN that you can watch it (may have missed it but just occured to me) Harrow vs Evans.

 

In addition, you have 14 days to pay the discounted amount, however on the appeals page it says" representation is received in the 14 day period", this is confusing when looked at the timescale description on page one.

 

The appeal options also seem to limit you to TWOC only for the relevant box.

[grey_lady21]

'can you remember if the vehicle in front of you in the second picture was in your lane as you entered'

 

I really can't remember, there's a good chance that it might have been.

I also can't see anywhere on the PCN about my being able to request to see the video. Not sure what TWOC means?

 

I was thinking of writing something like,

 

'Re contravention code 31 'Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited' I do not think that I committed this contravention. Although it doesn't mention in the PCN that I can have access to the footage, if it's possible I would like to see the video evidence of my vehicle entering and exiting the box junction, specifically to see if there was a stationary car blocking the exit at that time I entered. I do not recall that there was a stationary vehicle blocking the exit when I entered as the traffic was moving.

 

How does that sound?

[kwaks]

Too wishy washy and council are not the best readers. Simply reply that you believe the pcn is unenforceable as there does not appear to be any indication of the effect of regulation 3 paragraphs (5) and (6) (right to view evidence). As required by regulation 3(4)(e).

 

Relevent adjudicator decision is CASE NO 2080351250 Harrow vs Mr John Evans

[grey_lady21]

But that just appears to suggest that I do have the right to request seeing it, it doesnt seem to indicate that the PCN should mention that I can request to see it?

 

4(e) where the penalty charge notice is served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a) of the General Regulations (evidence produced by an approved device), the effect of paragraphs (5) and (6).

 

(5) The recipient of a penalty charge notice served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a) of the General Regulations may, by notice in writing to the enforcement authority, request it—

(a) to make available at one of its offices specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him or by his representative, the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or

(b) to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.

 

(6) Where the recipient of the penalty charge notice makes a request under paragraph (5), the enforcement authority shall comply with the request within a reasonable time.

 

Also the above refers to 'notices to owner' not the PCN, a 'notice to owner' would be the next step, e.g if I ignore the pcn that's what they would send to me.

 

 

How about putting something like - at the time i entered the box the traffic was moving normally and the exit was not blocked by stationary traffic, if I stopped in the box then this was due to vehicles in front stopping after my vehicle had entered the box. Accordingly no contravention took place Relevent adjudicator decision is Hadfield v Transport for London (2080009884)

 

Also just found out that there is a mistake with the wording, where they refer to increasing the amount if it's not paid within 28 days, - it refers to the 28 days beginning with the date the notice was served, (e.g when i received it through the post) but the local london authorities act states that the 28 days is from the 'date of notice'

So that's something I else I can put in my letter.

Edited February 28, 2010 by grey_lady21

[grey_lady21]

Also been advised to do a freedom of information request for the letter from Enfield council to tfl authorising them to give out pcn's in the area and also one to Enfield council asking them for the traffic managment order for the area. I've read on one website that a traffic order isnt needed for yellow box junctions but I can't find where in law it states that, anyone know if its true or not?

[kwaks]

As many points as possible will help. The adjudicatot in Harrow vs Evans ruled that the pcn should have informed Evans he had the right to view evidence, and ruled in his favour as it did not state this right as required.

 

Look on pepipoo for other potential mistakes, limiting the option to TWOC only has won appeals as well.

[grey_lady21]

I have received a reply to my letter saying that I had not established grounds or suitable reason for the penalty charge notice to be cancelled. Reasons for rejection are, being observed stationary in a yellow box junction which constitutes a contravention - being partially stationary, for a short time, or distance is irrelevant as this is a potential obstruction.

 

After viewing footage they can confirm that my vehicle entered before the exit route was clear and was stopped for 14 seconds, and it is the responsability of the driver to refrain from entering the box junction until it is possible to pass through it without stopping.

 

They go on to say that the wording on the PCN being wrong doesnt matter as it's treated as the same thing (where they refer to increasing the amount if it's not paid within 28 days, - it refers to the 28 days beginning with the date the notice was served, (e.g when i received it through the post) but the local london authorities act states that the 28 days is from the 'date of notice)

 

They also included a copy of the relevent bit of law which reads that you shouldnt enter into a box junction if you think you are going to have to stop in it (unless turning right).

 

They still havent mentioned in the letter that I am allowed to view the video, I think I will ask to see it and if the video shows that the traffic was already stationary when I entered the box then fair enough I have commited the offence and will need to pay. But if the traffic was moving when I entered then I think I will go to adjudication, any thoughts?

 

BTW they didnt mention the two adjudicators decisions that I'd referred to in my letter at all.

[lamma]

go see it. tell us if it matches their description. stopping does not constitute the contravention make sure you know the contravention description inside out before you watch the video.

[grey_lady21]

Well I just called tfl gave them the pcn number and confirmed my name/address and registration with them and asked if they could send me a copy of the footage and they said they could but it would cost £10 - is that right?

 

I agreed to pay the £10 but then they said they couldnt find my information??? and that I'd have to phone back on Friday, so I asked if they would put the 14 days on hold from today until Friday and they said that they would ask for it to be restarted from the date of the letter - but the letter had already said that. I did get the staff members name and staff number, so will have to wait until Friday to find out more.

[grey_lady21]

It's just occured to me that tfl arent going to be open this friday and nor are they next monday due to Easter, so I would have to wait until Tuesday to speak to them, which would take me up to day 13 from the date on the letter and I still wouldnt been able to see or get them to post the video footgage. Now I feel duped by the guy I spoke to on Monday. Doh! Going to call them again today.

[grey_lady21]

Success!

 

They had told me on the phone that the PCN was being cancelled, but i wanted to get the letter beforing posting an update - cancelled 'due to a technicality regarding the enforceability of the location'

 

BTW I never recieved a copy of the authorisation letter - the agreement between the borough council and tfl saying that they could enforce restrictions there, or a copy of the traffic orders that i had requested under the freedom of information act, i may pursue that with the commissioner.

 

Thanks everyone who replied!