CCCA/ Application forms which do we have?

[onedaydebtfree]

First of all as newbe to this forum i would like to say thank you for all the great information i have recieved from going over the prevoius threads here

 

What a great tool the internet is.

 

Today following a CCA request i receieved my MBNA 1998 application/aggrement? It is clearly Titled as a application form but does contain a paragraph which i have signed which states it is a credit agreement, on the rear of the application was a set of 'Financial And Related Conditions' it states interest rates etc as applied to cash transactions/ purchases that sort of thing. I take this to be my Prescribed Terms, although it is described under the above title, and not as Prescribed Terms, from the information i have gathered, am i right in saying that the front page has to link/lead you to the rear of the page to see these, as otherwise people can just copy this on after (MBNA, no never, i hear you shout). The reason i ask is that, in the box at the front, under the paragraph trying to sell me insurance and above where i have signed it reads 'I have recieved a copy of MBNA Credit Card Terms & Conditions' it does not state they are contained and are set out on the back of the application form anywhere. If this information was on the back at the time, should you not be clearly directed to it? or at the very least, please see the reverse, or words to that affect.

 

We regards to my right to cancel the aggrement

Under YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL it states,

 

Once you have signed this aggreement you will have for a short time a right to cancel it. Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post by the bank.

 

Is this acceptable i thought they had to clearly state it in the aggreement, i should not have to wait to hear how long i have? may be wrong on this one, just trying to make sure it is all as it should be.

 

Another item i am trying to clarify is that the title below the Header stating Priority Application Form, reads Credit Agreement Regulated by the consumer act 1974, should this read Credit Card Agreement regulated by the consumer act 1974, the missing out of the word Card seemed very important in some people minds on other forums. Does this make a difference.

 

Look forward to hearing what others think who have experance of 12 year old MBNA application/aggreements? are they worth the paper they are written on.

 

I do not intend to try and avoid the debt and having been paying MBNA under a CCCS plan for around 6 months, however unlike the other cards MBNA never agreed to accept the plan as they stated they required more money each month to meet with their payment plan minimum requirements which it fell short of by a few pounds each month. The CCCS said i could not and would not allow me to increase payments to them. Since January they have been looking to take me to court and the CCCS responce has been wait for the papers to arrive, now as i say i am not looking to get out of paying them, but i understand if the CCA is not right they cannot rule on it so i can continue paying them the amount i do currently and they cannot do much about it.

 

I was not happy to sit back and wait for papers to arrive and do nothing and i do not like people threating me with court action. Over the years they have had many times the money owed from me in interest and the moment i get into problems they want to drag me into the courts, unlike all the others who are happy for me to repay on a monthly basis.

Winds me up, love to meet one of these guys face to face, but then properly best i don't

 

So my next step? i was thinking SAR, or do i,or should i, first direct a responce to the Application/Agreement i recieved today, and if so are there any template letters here on the forum in relation to what i have highlighted. It is something which i know comes up all the time but i could not find any templates that realate dircetly to the above.

 

Hope the experts are not too bored replying to these threads.

 

Thank you for any help

[vjohn82]

SAR first.

 

The credit agreement/application form part is irrelevant in a manner of speaking. All that is required is for prescribed terms to have been agreed to and signed within the 4 corners of any agreement.

 

If the prescribed terms are not there it's unenforceable.

 

I say this to everyone on the forum; get yourself a scanner from ebay or cash converters or something. It's £10/15 - learn how to use it - post the docs up.

 

Best investment you'll ever make for all of your financial affairs and your activity on here

[debt4get]

or you can use you mobile phone if it has a camera, simply take photo upload to photobucket...blank out your details..post link hey ho

[onedaydebtfree]

I tried the scanner but the image was not great so i have inculded links to the application/agreement i receieved today. It is a photocopy as described previously, the back side of which contains the info on the rates in general.

 

The writing is so small i have had to take close ups up the sections to be able to make out what is writen. The front is a just full of where i have lived, earnings etc, the only bit that makes mention of any agreement is the sentance below the title Application Form, and the little box in the corner which i have signed. It mentions in this that they may give me a standard card instead of a gold card, which may have a lower limit but it does not say what the limit is to be. On either the Gold card or the standard.

 

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/onedaydebtfree/mbnaagreement030.jpg

 

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/onedaydebtfree/mbnaagreement004.jpg

 

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/onedaydebtfree/mbnaagreement036.jpg

 

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/onedaydebtfree/mbnaagreement035.jpg

 

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/onedaydebtfree/mbnaagreement037.jpg

 

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/onedaydebtfree/mbnaagreement039.jpg

 

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/onedaydebtfree/mbnaagreement040.jpg

 

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/onedaydebtfree/mbnaagreement041.jpg

 

So what does everyone think? does this comply with what is accepted as being a agreement between us. And if not, whilst i am planning on sending the SAR this week, is there a letter i should be printing of and sending to them with it, in reply to this paperwork they have sent me claiming to be a credit aggreement.

 

I look forward to hearing what people think

[cerberusalert]

it looks just like the terms & conditions they've sent; Is there anywhere on that form where you and they could have signed? If not I'd be tempted to send them Scots letter below & see what their response is;

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

 

My request remains outstanding. The items you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. It neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

 

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until XX/XX/2008 to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

 

Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

Print name do not sign

 

**amend to suit your circumstances.**

[onedaydebtfree]

Hello

 

On the lower left hand side of the page on the front, there is a ink stamped date and above it is a signature which is hard to mark out as it has been partly written over the top of some of my details.

 

It is not contained in its own box as such and there is nothing to describe what it is. Should it be alongside my own, or described as what it is?

[cerberusalert]

For an agreement to be properly executed it should contain both your and their signatur. If your signature is present it will be seen as enforceable by a court I'm afraid.

[onedaydebtfree]

Thats fair enough. If the rest of the aggreement is as should be i will just have to wait and see what they do.

 

Regards the prescribed terms being contained within the 4 corners of the page of a signed agreement and if they are not, it is deemed unenforceable.

 

From what i have posted in the links, are these seen to contain these by the interpretation of the generalised blanket statement on the rear? i understood i should see my credit limit and terms/stage of payments etc. so is the 4 corners to inculde something printed on the reverse of the document without a lead or indication they are contained here. They mention i have receieved them, and yet if they were contained overleaf would it not state this as against 'i have recieved them'

 

If i were printing something like this i would be leading you to it with a statement as to where it is. Otherwise they could just add this on any time, could they not.

 

Thanks for you reply and input, the more information i can gather the better, as far as i am concerened, good or bad.

[cerberusalert]

Can you take a full size picture of both sides using macro mode on a digital camera?

[onedaydebtfree]

I did try that, but you have to use the macro setting and get within a few inches to be able to make out the text And then you only get the small blocks of text linked to, 6" away and you need a telescope to see it.

 

I will have another go at it, if nothing else it will give a better indication of the page layout.

 

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

[onedaydebtfree]

After a lot of pictures these are the best i could do, you have to squint a bit, so it may pay to refer to the closeups for text. You can make out the signature over the top of a date stamped just up from the left bottom corner.

 

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/onedaydebtfree/mbnaagreement056.jpg

 

and here is the reverse side of the above photocopy

 

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab137/onedaydebtfree/mbnaagreement062.jpg

 

Not great i am afriad, but hopefully it makes it somewhat clearer.

[cerberusalert]

I don't think those prescribed terms have anything to do with the signed document. I may be wrong but maybe someone else can verify but I believe that any agreement must state the names and addresses of both parties + it keeps referring to the 'application' throughout.

[cerberusalert]

It maybe worthwhile having a browse through the MBNA library http://consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/609-mbna-agreementsapplication-forms

 

and the MBNA forum; MBNA - The Consumer Forums to see if you can find something similar.

[onedaydebtfree]

Thank you, i was not aware of these other forums, i will have a look through the threads and see if i can come up with anything.

 

Like yourself i am not sure what the significance of the Prescribed Terms have on the aggreement, from what i have read, and my eyes have gone rather square today. the CCA really is not that important, even more so given the ruling late last year, but the prescribed terms are a basic requirement of a enforceable agreement. Perhaps this is to say that whilst I/they have an agreement in place, as it does not contain the terms as required it cannot be ruled on, but it also means you still have a commitment to the debt. Which i do not have a issue with.

 

It would be great if someone who has good sound knowledge of this particular point could shed light on this. As after looking through numerous posts it seems to come up all the time and it never seems to be clear one way or the other.

 

Now of to sign up to more forums.

[vjohn82]

I have always worked on the principle that the document must be signed with the prescribed terms within in; they cannot be in another document.

 

The other principle is that the prescribed terms must be between the header "This is an agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974" and the signature of the customer (it should also contain the signature of the person authorising the account to be set up but I have seen this argument fail).

[lilly white]

1. Then, by Regulation 6 and Schedule 6 the following terms had to be contained in a regulated agreement for running account credit if it was not to be an IEA, and were prescribed for the purposes of s61 (1) (a):
   
   "A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit" (paragraph 3 of Schedule 6);
   "A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement" (paragraph 4 of Schedule 6);
   "A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of
   the following:
   number of repayments;
   amount of repayments;
   frequency and timing of repayments;
   dates of repayments;
   the manner in which any of the above may be determined;
   or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable." (paragraph 5 of Schedule 6).
   I shall refer to these as "the Prescribed Terms".
   
   
    
   
   
   Thanks to the judge CAREY AND OTHERS,
   
   
    
   
   
    
   
   
   Also plese check that the terms you where paying where in the application check your statments.
   
   
    
   
   
   What we are looking for is, i see you where charged a handling fee of 1.5% plus interest on cash. did you have cash please check this.
   
   
    
   
   
   This will help.
   
   

   
   

[onedaydebtfree]

Thank you all for your replys.

 

I think the only way i could ever find the answer to some of the questions raised is via a SAR, which i plan on sending tomorrow. As i recall, bearing in mind it was 12 years ago, i think, but i am not sure, the 1.5% cash charge was made as a charge for paying for a outstanding loan i had to Bowmakers for balance on a Van i had on Hp, they payed of the loan and transfered the debt to themseleves, i could be wrong on this, but i can never remember walking out of the bank with any cash as such.

 

I have copied some of the comments over from a reply i had on another forum, i thought it may aid others which may come across this thread, like myself who are new as to what to look for, it is very precise and to the point.

 

There is no information that stipulates any of the necessary prescribed terms.

 

The images in your post are a generic application form of which the terms could not and are not present, neither could they be relied upon as a enforceable agreement

 

Priority application with your own personal details...no required terms.

 

Prescribed Terms to contain

 

(1) Amount of credit or credit limit.

(2) Frequency and or timing of repayments.

(a) Number of repayments.

(b) Amount of repayments.

© Frequency and timing of repayments.

(d) Dates of repayments.

(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

(3) No interest rate is displayed.

 

Therefore the information contained and visible could not be relied upon as a enforceable agreement,

 

This is not say you get out of paying of course, but it does allow you, i understand from the feedback i have had here and elsewhere, some power to fight back with, like myself, they are trying to bully people into paying sums they cannot afford, or threaten them with court action, charging orders, etc, etc, all of which can be very stressful on yourslef partner and family, so don't sit back and think, should i, shouldn't i, they are quick to beat you over the head with their aggreements when they can find them, so check them out and ask for FREE advice, never pay, and of course, it means you keeps them on their toes.

 

I hope this may aid others who read it and are just starting to become aware of just what their rights are.

 

Now its time to get those letters printed.