used car - bad smell

[helix75]

Hi all,

 

I recently bought a £3,000 used car from an independent car dealer.

 

When I inspected the car and test drove it, the car was heavily perfumed. I assumed that the car had just been cleaned and prepared.

 

However, once I had bought the car, after a few hours I noticed a strong musty smell, similar to sour milk or old socks.

 

I eventually identified the smell as coming from the carpet on the driver’s side by sniffing the carpets (not something I do very often ).

 

I have since taken the car back and the dealer has steam cleaned the carpet, but the smell is still there. Further, I cannot be sure that once the strong perfume smell fades, that the carpet smell will not be even worse (especially in the summer when the car gets hot).

 

The car was described as “exceptionally clean” in the advert, but I am sure the dealer was aware of the smell before the sold the car, and tried to conceal it with air freshener.

Since I know how difficult it can be to get smells out of a carpet, and since there is no way for me to assess the long term impact of the smell (due to the overpowering air freshener), do you think I have grounds for returning the car for a full refund?

Cheers!

[postggj]

How Long Ago Did You Buy The Car

[helix75]

less than two weeks ago.

 

Didnt pick it up until last saturday, returned in on sunday complaining of the smell. picked it up again this saturday just gone, car broke down (water pump failed) now back with the dealer.

[Britainsworstdriver]

Reject the car. Don't go any further. You will find a non smelly one and one where it doesn't break down as soon as you use it. Smell is probably vomit.

[postggj]

So Not Only Has The Water Pump Failed, The Smell Is Just As Bad

I Would Reject The Car Under The Sale Of Goods Act

 

You Have I Believe 14 Days Max

If He Refuses Tell Him You Will Issue A Claim Through The County Court

 

Get You Complaint To Him In Writing

One By Hand A Duplicate By Recorded Delivery

 

You Have A Lemon

[helix75]

thanks for the replies.

 

Do I have 14 days from when I payed the final balance?

 

Do I need to ensure the letter is with the dealer by recorded delivery before the 14 days have expired?

[postggj]

It Will Be 14 Days From Completion Of Contract

Thats The Final Payment Unless It On Hp

 

Take My Advice

Do It Tomorow

Give Him A Letter Rejecting The Car Under The Sale Of Goods Act And At The Same Time, Send The Letter By Recorded Delivery

[Britainsworstdriver]

I totally agree. Do it first thing in the morning. If you have their fax number, send it tonight too. DO NOT let them talk you out of it.

[helix75]

many thanks.

 

Once I begun considering returning the car, I decided to check whether the dealership was a registered company. Turns out they are not, but rather an individual trading as the dealership name. The agreement is also with the individual.

 

They do however have a forcourt, do finance, warranties, are VAT registered etc. And they advertised the car a trade in autotrader.

 

Will this be an issue with the SOGA?

[postggj]

They Have To Be Registered If A Ltd Company

 

If Not Then It Will Be A Sole Trader

Thats Great For You As You Can Sue Him Direct If The Company Went Tits Up

 

Makes No Difference To The Soga

 

I Cant Stress This Enough

 

Its 14 Days Max Cooling Off Period

[helix75]

They Have To Be Registered If A Ltd Company

 

If Not Then It Will Be A Sole Trader

Thats Great For You As You Can Sue Him Direct If The Company Went Tits Up

 

Makes No Difference To The Soga

 

I Cant Stress This Enough

 

Its 14 Days Max Cooling Off Period

 

thanks. so if they are vat registered, then by definition they are a ltd company, and a sole trader?

 

What should the letter contain?

[postggj]

All That Ltd Means Is If The Compay Goes Tits Up, The Directors Are Protected From Company Debts

 

 

Write The Letter And Post It On Your Thread And Ill Go Over It

 

Its Important You Understand It

 

You Are Rejecting The Car Under The Soga

Ask For Either A Replacement Vehicle Or A Full Refund As Not Fit For Purpose

 

They Have 14 Days To Comply Or A Claim Will Be Issued In The County Court For Return Of Monies Paid

 

Dont Pussy Foot About

 

Do It

[postggj]

Error

[helix75]

how important is delvering the letter in person? I'll be at work so

it will be difficult to get there until next weekend.

[postggj]

As Long As They Get The Recorded Delivery Before The 14 Days Are Up, You Will Be Fine

[banker_rhymes_with]

A bad smell from the carpets could mean it's been flooded. Most car carpets are rubber backed, so any significant moisture tends to stay put, because little air gets to it to take away the moisture.

 

Or the Cabin Heater Matrix might have gone, that's a little radiator that sits inside the Cabin Heater, that is fed by the car's coolant (which is warm/hot when the engine warms up). They do go on older cars, and the tell-tale is damp carpets and condensation...and a Turkish Bath if it goes pop completely!

 

But the potential flooding issue is the worst, in case the engine has sucked up any flood water and gone hydraulic. That can cause engine damage, ranging from over-stress on the head and cooling system, to bent con-rods etc. Some engines will start and run, but run badly. Some engines get away with it, others never get over it. Depends on the severity of the intake of fluid and the engine type.

 

Either way, the smell could be an indicator of something much worse.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[helix75]

thanks. the carpet only smells in the drivers area. the rest of the carpet smells ok.

 

I guesss water alone could make the carpet go mouldy and smell.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Helix75!

 

I guesss water alone could make the carpet go mouldy and smell.

I think all car carpets have the potential to smell ripe, i.e. once the car has been used for a while.

 

But, it usually take a fair quantity of water to result in a persistent pong!

 

For example, even with all of the snow we are having, and the quantity of solid water (snow and ice) that peoples' shoes and boots introduce to their cars, many will not really start to smell too bad. The ice/snow will melt, but will just dampen the upper areas of the carpet, which acts a bit like a towel. All the strands increase surface area, to allow moisture to evaporate away. It may take a while, but it will go as soon as the weather improves and no more water is being introduced. The same way a towel will dry if left spread out...surface area does the trick.

 

There will be a whiff, but that should disappear as the water goes and the dust and dirt dries up at the base of the carpet.

 

But a serious flooding, will introduce water behind the carpets, trapped between the floor of the car, and the rubber/foam backing of the carpet. That acts a bit like a damp-proof course of a house, keeping the damp trapped...but not so trapped that it doesn't keep working its way into the carpet and prolonging the pong.

 

An innocent explanation could be an accident when cleaning it, say, a carpet cleaning machine mis-fired and flooded the driver's footwell. Most spray water into the carpet, and then suck it straight out again, along with dirt and grime. But if, say, someone wasn't paying attention, or the machine ran out of suck, for whatever reason, then that may have caused the pong...but that's probably less likely, unless the cleaner could not get the machine to suck again.

 

Have you checked the coolant level? i.e. is that creeping down at all? I do appreciate that having the Water Pump fail will have ratted up the observation somewhat! But if the Pump is now fixed, is the coolant level now static, or is it gradually going down? This could suggest a Heater Matrix failing in the cabin.

 

Another potential issue that could explain the rest, is if the Head Gasket is starting to fail. That can over-pressurise the cooling system, and knock out both Water Pump and Heater Matrix.

 

Is there any sign of that, it could be, say, over-pressure if you remove the Coolant Header Tank/Radiator Cap (when cold, don't take it off when hot). If the Head Gasket is doing that, then you may detect that by a hissing and bubbling as the Cap is eased...which would not happen normally.

 

Other symptoms could be water in the oil, which you may first see via either the Oil Cap or the Dipstick. When water and oil mix, they form an emulsion, which looks like cream. If you see any of that, then it suggests the Head Gasket could be failing.

 

If you suspect any of this, then get the car checked out by someone who knows what they are doing, because there are various tests that can be carried out to check for, say, exhaust gases in the coolant, or that can pick up pressure or loss of pressure, to pin-point the area that is failing.

 

Finally, one other explanation could be a small creature has popped into the car to make it home, and has popped off inside the dashboard! That can and does happen, especially around Autumn/Winter, when many of our little furry friends are looking for somewhere to bed down for the winter! But if the carpets are damp in just one area, that is more likely to be the cause or, rather, the potential symptom of something else.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[helix75]

thanks very much BRW for the detailed advice.

 

the carpet is not really getting wet, it just smells nasty. It is only in the drivers footwell. The rest of the carpet is ok.

 

After the water pump was fixed, the car overheated on the motorway on saturday when I collected it. The RAC roadside recovery engineer said either the water pump had gone again, or the thermostat.

 

He filled it up with water to the top, and revved the car with the coolant overflow chamber cap off. The water was bubbling away. Could this be a sign of head gasket failure?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Helix75!

 

the carpet is not really getting wet, it just smells nasty. It is only in the drivers footwell. The rest of the carpet is ok.

Check the prop-shaft tunnel to the left of the driver's pedals, and see if there is any sign of damp there. That's where the Heater Matrix may leak if indeed that is the issue...

 

After the water pump was fixed, the car overheated on the motorway on saturday when I collected it. The RAC roadside recovery engineer said either the water pump had gone again, or the thermostat.

That doesn't sound too promising, I think the car has other issues, the Water Pump going was probably a symptom of something else.

 

It could be the Thermostat, hard to tell from a Forum, but one way is to establish where the Thermostat lives, then start the car from cold, and keep feeling the coolant rubber hoses to see if the coolant is circulating. A blocked Thermostat will prevent the circulation, so one side tends to get very hot, whilst the other can stay stone cold. That is the job of the Thermostat, but only when warming up. Once in the normal zone, the Thermostat is supposed to open and allow the coolant to circulate, after which it then helps to regulate the temperature by opening and closing, in conjunction with the Radiator Fan, which is usually electric these days, so controlled via the engine management. By comparison, the Thermostat is usually a wholly mechanical device, not directly controlled via the engine's management. It works on coolant temperature alone, and the effect that has on a big metal spring that contracts/expands with temperature.

 

So, the rubber hoses should have a warm/cold disparity initially (either side of the Thermostat's location) but, if it stays like that, even when going out for a short trip, then it may suggest the Thermostat is sticking and/or has stuck. The car's radiator usually stays stone cold at the bottom, whilst the top gets very hot...another sign of a blocked Thermostat and/or a cooling system that is not circulating.

 

As a desperate measure, the Thermostat can be taken out. That will make the engine run cooler so, not a great idea in this weather, but the main impact is likely to be fuel consumption, because the engine management will think the engine is still cold, so may richen the mixture (more fuel to air, as if the car was on choke or part-choke).

 

If you can get it out, then you can test a Thermostat. Most have a Temperature stamped on them, say, 82 degrees C or a few either side of that. If you put the Thermostat into a pan of water and warm it up, you should see it open as the water gets to the above temp, or whatever temp is stamped on it. Likewise, if you put cold water in, then it should close, provided the water temp in the pan goes below the set threshold.

 

Thermostats are not that expensive, usually around £5 or so, but can be a beggar to get at. Also important to fit the correct one, some need a rubber ring, some a gasket and rubber ring, some just a gasket etc.

 

However, it's nearly always something else, although a Thermostat is a cheap item to change if only to rule that out.

 

A proper inspection should isolate the issue, but you need either an Engineer or an experienced Mechanic/Technician.

 

He filled it up with water to the top, and revved the car with the coolant overflow chamber cap off. The water was bubbling away. Could this be a sign of head gasket failure?

Again, hard to say from a Forum, but some water movement is to be expected, but bubbles and anything suggesting pressure is not good. That would suggest it's more likely to the Head Gasket, i.e. it has failed near a waterway, and is letting compression/exhaust gases to get past the Gasket and into the cooling system.

 

I think this car needs to be checked out...it may be worth finding an Engineer, and getting an engine inspection. His/her report can then be used to reject what is increasingly sounding like a lemon car.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[helix75]

thanks so much. I'm going to get the car inspected.

 

Would an RAC/AA vehicle inspection do the job?

[postggj]

Yes Get It Done By Aa/rac

 

They Have Full Diagnostic Equipment On The Van And They Will And Ask For A Print Out Of The Error/fault Codes And Bill The Garage For The Cost

[Surfer01]

Sounds like a lemon and needs rejecting.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Helix75!

 

Would an RAC/AA vehicle inspection do the job?

I regret I don't know. It might be worth asking them, and say it's a specific area of the car (the engine/cooling plus possibly strange pong that might be related). They may offer a more dedicated test rather than a general MOT type of check over.

 

However, there may be other issues you have yet to discover, so maybe a full check over may not be such a bad idea.

 

Another alternative is to look up, say, Yellow Pages, and see if there are any good Automotive Engineers. Many specialise on reports and inspections, often covering issues such as this for insurance and/or legal Claim purposes.

 

I once had a Land Rover blow up, and knew pretty quickly that it was due to a garage neglecting to fit a major part of the inlet pipe-work after an engine upgrade (engine sucked up water the first puddle the car went through and the engine went hydraulic and popped a con-rod out of the side). It was a while ago, but the cost of the report was not horrendous and, armed with that, I had no problem getting a new engine once Court was threatened. The evidence was clear and well supported by a qualified Engineer's report.

 

In your case, a good report from RAC/AA and/or a qualified Automotive Engineer, and you can reject the car on what should be, by then, valid and supported grounds. Trading Standards (TS) would no doubt get off their backsides and support you too, once they see you have some evidence to back you up.

 

Arguing with the Trader is pointless. Gather the evidence, then write to formally reject the lemon. I would ask for your reasonable costs back (Water Pump, inspection fees, alternative transport issues etc). Make it clear they will be reported to TS and/or you will instigate a Court Claim against them if they do not settle promptly.

 

The Trader will just have to take it back, and sort it, before selling it on again. That's not your problem. It's hassle for them, but anyone decent will understand the issues and will take it back. They will have contacts to get it fixed, and it is part of their responsibilities when running a business selling cars. Some they win, some they lose. They will know that, but depending on their honestly, may wriggle in the net for a while before admitting defeat.

 

Get your money back, then move on and find a better car. Perhaps get the next one inspected and/or look for one that comes with a free AA/RAC inspection as part of the deal.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Conniff]

Your wasting time here. Have you rejected the car yet?