Home Loan secured against property

[Wheels60]

Hi all,

 

We took a "Home Improvement Loan" secured against our property some years ago. Following that, as a result of illness resulting in physical limitations and loss of employment, we claimed on the insurance policy we took out when we took the loan. All has been fine for a number of years, but now we are informed that the cover expires next month.

 

This will leave us in a very difficult position, as being on Benefits (Including Pension Credit), we simply cannot afford the additional payments of £310 per month for the next two years. There is also a dispute about the balance still owed as the lenders seem not to have taken into account any of the payments received from the insurance company. By their calculations we owe them over £13,000, whereas by mine, it is less than £4,000. Neither the Lenders or the Debt Collection Agency chasing us have responded to my written enquiries on this matter. (4 letters in all).

 

Are there any steps I can take to avoid the Lender taking Court action for recovery of the debt and possible re-possession of my home.

 

Wheels 60:confused:

Edited December 22, 2009 by Wheels60
No Link Required

[Wheels60]

Did it get there, there is nothing in your "New Post" that confirms it has been posted

[nunnyrose]

hi, just to let you know your message has been posted. If you cant see it in "new post" its because other have posted around the same time as you. your message will probably be on the next page

Sorry, I cant help with your question but this reply will bump the post so somebody with more knowledge will hopefully get to read it. If I see there are no replies I will "bump" it again for you later

[postggj]

Do You Have Any Paperwork On The Payment Protection

 

When Did You Take Out The Secured Loan ( In Months)

How Long Is The Secured Loan Over

 

Who Is The Debt Collecting Agency And Who Is The Finance Company On The Secured Loan

 

Pleas Dont Say Wf

[Wheels60]

HI Postggj,

 

I have all the paperwork.

 

It is a Natwest Home Loan, taken out Feb 2005 over 7 years, with Insurance from Natwest Insurance Services. We were forced through unforeseen circumstances to claim almost immediately.

 

Total advanced to us was £16,500, with a further £4,090 charged for the cost of the insurance. making a total of £20,590. By February 2010, a total of £18,950.26 will have been repaid. However, there will still be a further 24 payments of £310.66 due.

 

The Insurance is still in place, however, the terms of the policy are that it will only allow for a maximum of 60 payments. The daft part is that the insurers say that if either myself or my wife are able to return to full time employment for six months, make six months payments ourselves, and THEN become unfit for work again, they would make up to another 60 payments.

 

That is not going to happen. We will both be 62 this year, I am now "Full Time Wheelchair", and my wife is "Semi Ambulant". She has arthritic knees which the Consultant is unwilling to operate on and replace due to other medical problems. Our only income is benefits and pension. I get DLA and Incapacity Benefit, my wife gets DLA, a small amount of State Pension, and Pension Credit. We are already enrolled in a Debt Management Program to manage other debts, but I do not believe that this debt can be added to that program as it is secured on the property.

 

The matter is further complicated by the fact that we had a "Joint Personal Bank Account" with the same Bank. That account was closed and the balance due was added to our "Debt Management Program".

 

The Debt Collection Agency dealing with this matter is Irwin Mitchell LLP, Bauhaus, Rossetti Place, 27 Quay Street, Manchester. Earlier this year they issued County Court Orders against me and my wife in separate claims but both for the whole amount (Loan + Joint Account) which was at that time totalled some £16,000+ (One in May and one in July). I defended those by writing to the Court and informing them that payments on the loan were being made and were up to date, and that the debt on the "Joint Personal Account" had been added to our "Debt Management Program". And, incidentally, that the Claimant had made two claims, against two different people, for the same alleged debt. There was nothing more I could do and I heard nothing further on that matter.

 

There must be something I can do to avert this possible disaster, and I would be most grateful for any advice you can offer.

 

By the way, MERRY CHRISTMAS...

 

Wheels60

[postggj]

Thinking

[postggj]

On The Ppi

 

Do You Have A Document Called

 

Statement Of Price

[postggj]

I Need You To Go Through Your Paperwork And Find The Following

 

The Credit Agreement

Statement Of Price

A Needs And Demands Statement

 

Sorry If Personal But When You Took Out This Loan, What Was Your Employment, Is It A Joint Loan And Was Your Wif Working At The Time Also

[Wheels60]

Hi postggj,

 

Sorry to be so long replying, Christmas and all that. In answer to your questions:-

 

1, The Credit agreement. I should explain a little. We originally took a personal loan in June 2004 for a lesser amount. I have copy of the original credit agreement for that loan. On visiting the Bank again in Feb 2005 about other matters, we were advised that we could effectively "Top Up" this loan, or "Start Again" with a larger sum. We agreed to that and that is the basis on which we now proceed. It appears that what actually happened was we started an entirely new loan. I am careful about paperwork and do NOT throw items such as this away, however, I do not seem to have a copy of that agreement in any form. Now, as long ago as November 2005, I wrote to the Bank asking them for a copy of the Loan Agreement. All I got in response was a letter which reads, and I quote:-

"As requested we are writing to confirm details of your above numbered personal loan.

The loan was opened in February 2005 in the sum of £16,500, plus personal loan protector premium of £4090, making a total loan of £20,590.

Monthly repayments are £310.66 and are scheduled until February 2012.

We trust that this is sufficient for your needs....."

It is interesting to note that according to the original Credit Agreement, part of the monthly repayment is utilised to pay the insurance premium. I can only assume that it is the same for this "New" loan. This should mean that all payments have been made and are up to date as of now, and that therefore the insurance is still in place.

There is one further complication I should mention. There were at least two occasions when payments were made late. This being for the reason that the Insurers (NatWest Insurance Services - the SAME NatWest that we took the loan with), failed to inform us that they had not accepted the paperwork and certificates we sent them and simply stopped making the payments. We only became aware of the problem when the Bank contacted us to advise that they had not received the payment. We then had to contact the Insurers to find out why, get the necessary certificates they required, and then they paid the arrears in full. I appreciate that the Lenders COULD claim some additional fees for late payment, but respectfully suggest this would be unreasonable as delays in payment were the direct result of inefficient administration by their own group of companies.

 

2, Statement of Price. Within the "Loan Protector Certificate of Insurance" there is one paragraph under this heading, it reads:- "The cost of this insurance is detailed in your credit agreement. The premium has been added to the amount you have borrowed and its cost payable by monthly instalments over the duration of your loan.

 

3, Needs and Demands Statement. I am not sure what this means, and can find no reference to anything like this in any of the paperwork I have. Do you mean a breakdown of our income and necessary expenditure?

 

Now, as to the amount that they claim is due. By my calculation there are some 24 payments of £310.66 still to be made, making a total of £7,455.84. However, the claims and statements made by NatWest show that in their view the total is over £16,000. I have written several times to both the Lender and the Debt Collection Agency working on their behalf for an explanation of the figures they claim, but have received no reply.

 

Finally, our employment status at the time we took the loan.

 

I was retired on medical grounds.

My wife was working as a "Weekend Sales Assistant" at a local Market.

It was a "Joint Loan".

 

 

 

I hope this is sufficient and look forward to further advice.

 

 

Wheels60

[postggj]

ok

 

i have enough

 

ppi missold for a start

 

nothing new it that

 

it would be worthless in the event of a claim

 

seems to me they dont have an agreement but we will get that confirmed

 

 

who is the dca giving you grief

 

is it nastywest own internal dca

 

name them please

 

irwin mitchell are solicitors

[postggj]

just reading the thread again

 

do you have a county court judgement for this debt

 

and if so why is the ppi still bein paid

[postggj]

just popping out for an hour to get some air

 

just need a reply to last question

[Wheels60]

There are no CCJ's as yet. 2 Claims were raised (1st in May 2009 in my Wife's name, Claim No 9QR56673), (2nd in July 2009 in my name, Claim No 9QR57100).

 

I responded to the Court that all payments were up to date, and heard nothing more.

 

PPI is still being paid by the insurers themselves as they meet full payment on instalments due on the loan (Including their own premium). I consider this to be an advantage to keep the policy "Live", as if one of us dies, the loan is repaid in full and that will be an end of it.

 

Wheels60

[postggj]

thats great

 

back in an hour to deal with this for you

 

chin up

[postggj]

THIS IS A NEW REQUEST DUE TO THE RECENT MANCHESTER COURT CASES

PLEASE WAIT TILL AFTER THE WEEKEND BEFORE YOU SEND TO GET FEED BACK

 

Your Address

 

Date

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:− Account/Reference Number 4563210025897412

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77 to s.79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

i expect this to be a true copy and not a reconstructed agreement.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77(6) will apply.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

if you are unable to comply the request then a request under the civil procedure rules will apply. This request is made under cpr 31.16

 

I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

print your name

 

dont forget the £1 postal order

 

 

 

 

COMMENTS PLEASE PEOPLE

[Wheels60]

Letter written, will be posted sometime next week, with postal order, many thanks.

 

Wheels60

Edited January 2, 2010 by Wheels60

[Wheels60]

Posting letter tomorrow

[postggj]

Recorded Delivery

[Wheels60]

Letter was sent - recorded delivery. No response as yet, but it crossed my mind, if and when I do get a response, how will that help me?

[ZillaK]

hi Wheels60..

 

..it really depends what they come back with... sometimes it's an agreement, sometimes nothing at all.. given the date of the loan & re-loan I suspect that it will be something in between in a sense..

 

..did they ask for identification when you did the first loan, and then again for the second?

 

ZillaK

[Wheels60]

Hi Zillak,

 

It was a long standing personal bank account. I don't recall them asking for ID on either occasion - but I could be wrong..

[ZillaK]

..long standing bank account?... with Natwest?... then worth asking for a copy of the id records used to open the account and remind them of their obligations under anti-money laundering legislation to maintain such appropriate records for up to six years after account closure..

 

..but wait and see what happens on the other issue first..

[Wheels60]

Hi "postggj" and "zillack",

 

Done a bit more checking. Looking at the statements that came for the loan account, they are addressed to my wife alone, NOT in joint names. Does this mean that the loan was taken in her name only as she was the only one working at that time? Bear in mind that last year we received TWO County Court Claims, one in MY name, and one in hers.

 

I sent the letter to NatWest as advised, with just one minor alteration. As payment, we did not send a postal order, we sent a cheque for £1.00 written from my wife's new personal account with HSBC.

 

Today we received an interesting reply:-

 

It is addressed to "Mr R & Mrs C Watkins" and reads as follows (I quote verbatum):-

 

"Dear Mr & Mrs Watkins,

 

We return your letter, as attached, which we are unable to action.

 

Unfortunately we do not hold Mrs Watkins's signature, as this is a joint request we cannot action until we receive joint authority.

 

Please can you take your passport or driving licence into your branch for them to forward to us at Credit Management Services.

 

Thank you for your assistance in this matter. We look forward to hearing from you shortly.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Signed by Recovery Manager"

 

 

Does this mean what I think it means - that the loan was made in her name only, but they don't have her signature or any ID for her, and that is why they are asking her to provide it now.

 

What should I do next?

 

All this is very interesting, no fascinating, I am intrigued..

 

Wheels60

[ZillaK]

Hi Wheels60,

 

Obviously can't say for definite but I'm sure you understand that anyhow.. but I think my last post says it all

 

..why not send them a letter back reminding them of their obligations as stated before, ask for copies of the id records... and this time include a postal order whilst repeating the previous request..

 

..anyways.. see what postggj suggests too...

 

ZillaK

 

ps - I never do my real signature when writing in reference to a debt..

[Wheels60]

Got an interesting reply.

 

Natwest said they could not comply with my request for copy of the loan agreement as per the above letter as it was a "Joint Request" signed by both me and wife, and asked us to go to nearest branch and supply them with ID and authorised signature. Bear in mind that loan was given in HER name, and all corres regarding it has come in her name.

 

We duly refused to do this, and wrote to them saying that if they do not have original docs or authorised signature, they cannot demand payment.

 

We await response on that, meanwhile we have received further corres from the debt collectors claiming that they have not received some of our earlier corres on this matter.

 

We wrote back saying that if they have lost it, its not our fault, and that their Client seems unable to supply copy of the original loan agreement and does not seem to have a record of an "Authorised Signature" for that agreement, so we denied their Clients ability to claim further payments.

 

Any further advice would be most gratefully received

 

wheels60