Landlady won't let me on Housing benefit

[me01273]

Hi all,

 

I am about to lose my job, and if I don't find another one, I am to rely on the benefits system.

 

I am a lodger in a private owner’s house, I never signed a tenancy agreement, I just didn't think about it when I moved in.

When I asked her to draw an agreement up so I could get housing benefit, she refused, hinting that she is not declaring the income from me on her tax return.

 

I don't know what to do, if I don't have a tenancy agreement I can't claim housing benefit, and if I don't find a job, I'm effectively going to be homeless.

 

Any advice on this is greatly appreciated.

 

David

 

Edit: I've put this in the wrong sub forum, can a Mod please move it to the Housing & Tenancy forum?

Edited December 14, 2009 by me01273
added note on wrong sub forum

[Zamzara]

It can be harder to claim without a written agreement but there is no legal requirement to have one. You only have to establish liability pay rent. This could be through bank statements showing rent payments, for example.

[me01273]

Hi, I pay in cash, so it may be very hard for me to prove what I pay without an tenancy agreement.

 

Is there anything I can do to make my landlady give me a tenancy agreement?

 

When I claim housing benefit, is there anyway for my landlady to find out?

 

Many thanks

David

[Kentish Lass]

Do you pay your rent weekly or monthly? If weekly, there is a legal requirement for you to be provided with a rent book.

 

Your landlady does not seem to understand that you could choose to report her to HMRC if she does evict you!! It would surely be in her interest to assist you. Providing you with some sort of written licence agreement to show the benefit department is unlikely to cause her a problem with HMRC anyway.

[Steve__M]

Does you landlady know that she can receive about £4500 rent per year tax free?

[me01273]

I pay my rent weekly and I don't have a rent book.

I don't really want to start getting all legal with her, shes a nice person and I get on with her, it's a difficult situation.

 

I've tried phoning CAB, but their so busy, also shelter, but their really busy aswell.

 

I'm tearing my hair out, I really don't know what to do.

 

David

[citizenkain]

i was in this situation myself a few years ago,you need to get a rent book,whsmith sell them,or any other big stationers and pay your rent by cheque otherwise you aint really there at all! you wont be on the voters roll etc...

[andydd]

Hhmm..

 

I have in the past rented a room out to a lodger and to be honest if they found themselves unemployed i'd prob want rid of them, its sad but true. I'm unaware of any law that says I must provide a rent book or any contractual norice period. I generally have had a verbal contract and agreed a months notice to be given either way.

 

The tax part mentioned prob is irrelevant as you can earn £4500 from renting before paying tax and thats under what most lodgers would pay for a room (with London as a possible exception).

 

Andy

[andydd]

I pay my rent weekly and I don't have a rent book.

I don't really want to start getting all legal with her, shes a nice person and I get on with her, it's a difficult situation.

 

I've tried phoning CAB, but their so busy, also shelter, but their really busy aswell.

 

I'm tearing my hair out, I really don't know what to do.

 

David

 

Surely shes within her rights just to ask you to leave if it comes down to it though ?

[ErikaPNP]

In order to make an award of benefit for payment of rent, the relevant authority need to be satisfied that the tenancy is let on a commercial basis, among other things.

 

Link to housing benefit regulations: The Housing Benefit Regulations 2006

[me01273]

So as a lodger, am I renting on a commercial basis (I mean, my landlady is making money from it)?

[andydd]

So as a lodger, am I renting on a commercial basis (I mean, my landlady is making money from it)?

 

EErr..good point, having had a quick read through I think the answer is yes, I think that 'non-commercial' would be living with your partner or child/parent, etc.

 

However If I was your landlord I would be tempted to be unwilling to keep you as a tenant if you became unemployed, its a lot more hassle, hence why most ads do stipulate 'working only' or 'no dss'.

 

Andy

[ErikaPNP]

EErr..good point, having had a quick read through I think the answer is yes, I think that 'non-commercial' would be living with your partner or child/parent, etc.

 

More or less, yes. A tenancy that is let on a non commercial basis in that sense is treated as a "contrived" tenancy in respect of housing benefit. You can let from relatives, in some circumstances, again providing the tenancy is let on a commercial basis.

 

On the assumption that you are not related to your landlady, your tenancy would likely be on a commercial basis, but you would be required to prove that you have a tenancy or other agreement which is pursuant to the dwelling you occupy, so that they can examine whether that agreement is on a commercial or non commercial basis. There must be a binding and legally enforceable agreement to pay rent on a regular basis for the accomodation.

[Labtec81]

Hhmm..

 

I have in the past rented a room out to a lodger and to be honest if they found themselves unemployed i'd prob want rid of them, its sad but true. I'm unaware of any law that says I must provide a rent book or any contractual notice period. I generally have had a verbal contract and agreed a months notice to be given either way.

 

Andy

 

You'd want rid of them for what reason? How sad it is that you'd want to turf someone out if they found themselves unemployed! What if they found themselves unemployed for no reason of their own such as if they were made redundant for a start.

 

As for the law, if your renting any or part of your house out to anyone you have to by law provide them with a contract and a rent book, or your breaking the law FACT.

 

And you also have to by law provide them with a contract that states you have to give them a minimum of 1 months written notice, verbal contracts don't mean (edit), excuse my french but it's people like you who think they can get away with everything by spouting such crap about verbal contracts because they're not worth the paper you print them on aka NO PAPER! So there is no proof you ever agreed to anything and you would no doubt be quick to deny everything.

 

However If I was your landlord I would be tempted to be unwilling to keep you as a tenant if you became unemployed, its a lot more hassle, hence why most ads do stipulate 'working only' or 'no dss'.

 

Andy

 

You've already said if they found themselves unemployed you'd "probably" want rid of them so which is it? "probably" or you'd only "be tempted" and I find it disgusting that most places say 'working only' or 'no dss' what about families with children who work part time (16 hrs a week) in order to claim tax credits, they are still entitled to Housing Benefit as well, do you agree with them not being entitled to somewhere to live as well simply because they work but claim some benefits, everyone is entitled to somewhere to live regardless, the problem with society these days is people only care about themselves and not others, it's never a case of scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, it's more a case of you scratch my back and I'll scratch my back, bl**dy disgusting attitude if you ask me.

 

Surely shes within her rights just to ask you to leave if it comes down to it though ?

 

Well she would be wouldn't she because it doesn't matter how nice someone is, with no proof that she's been renting part of her house out to someone she could simply just kick her lodger out with no notice at all, simply because he or she doesn't have a legally binding contract just so people like her and you can save a few quid here and there without caring about other people and the situations they might end up in if they ended up homeless just because of greedy landlords who don't want to/can't be (edit) to do it legally.

Edited December 16, 2009 by ErikaPNP
please refer to section 3.6 of the forum rules

[Labtec81]

I pay my rent weekly and I don't have a rent book.

I don't really want to start getting all legal with her, shes a nice person and I get on with her, it's a difficult situation.

 

Of course she's nice while your giving her money, i'd get on with you if you gave me money , the fact is it doesn't matter how nice she is, once your gone do you really think she'll care? She won't she'll just get a new lodger in to replace you and do it all over again.

 

You need to start getting all legal on her, because otherwise you might as well lay down and be walked all over as her doormat, sorry for being so blunt but that's exactly how it is.

[me01273]

Thank you very much for your post Labtech81.

 

I spoken to a few other people, and they all say the same. Although it's the law to have a tenancy agreement and a rent book, if I ask for either now, she could just chuck me out and I wouldn't have anything to prove I was even there.

 

I've contacted the council who are looking for somewhere for me and I'm also desperately looking myself for somewhere that will let me stay on DSS.

 

David

[Labtec81]

No problem David,

 

Let us know how you get on please as I find it disgusting you're being treated like this.

[ErikaPNP]

 

As for the law, if your renting any or part of your house out to anyone you have to by law provide them with a contract and a rent book, or your breaking the law FACT.

 

And you also have to by law provide them with a contract that states you have to give them a minimum of 1 months written notice, verbal contracts don't mean (edit), excuse my french but it's people like you who think they can get away with everything by spouting such crap about verbal contracts because they're not worth the paper you print them on aka NO PAPER! So there is no proof you ever agreed to anything and you would no doubt be quick to deny everything.

 

This is not completely correct. There is not always a legal right to a written tenancy agreement. Although verbal agreements are difficult to enforce, it's not impossible. Contract law is civil law, wherin there is a dispute the case is decided upon the balance of probabilities, not the burden of proof.

 

Only specific types of tenancies in specific areas carry a legal right to a written agreement or rent book. A verbal agreement is perfectly legal. Whether a person is entitled to written documents will depend on what type of tenancy they have, and where in the UK they live.

 

I find it disgusting that most places say 'working only' or 'no dss'

 

Most landlords/landladys are unable to accept DSS tenants due to their insurers. There are clauses inserted into some insurance contracts that invalidates the insurance if the tenancy is let to DSS tenants. Why? I have no idea. Personally I find it disgusting too, but there isn't a lot we can do about it as they are not breaking any laws.

[Emma1973]

You may find the following link useful for lodgers rights

 

Lodgers and the Rent-a-Room Scheme in England and Wales

 

Basics you may be interested in are:

 

There are no statutory rules governing lodgers, unlike tenancies, so you make your own rules in the form of a contract between you and your lodger. The lodger has a "license to occupy", not a full tenancy, so it is much easier to remove the lodger if he or she proves unsuitable.

 

Notice to Quit

 

You have much more control over the situation with a lodger than you do with full tenants. This is because Lodgers occupy your home on licence, and they do not have security of tenure - unlike tenants. Lodgers cannot call the place their own, therefore they have no right to stay on if you give them notice to leave. Your lodger agreement should specify the amount of notice required (usually about 1 month) and this should be given in writing.

 

Legally you don't need a formal agreement, but it is an extremely good idea to have one, as it can prevent a lot of arguments later.

 

 

SHelters guidelines on excluded occupiers (which is what a lodger is)

Shelter England - Excluded occupiers

 

However, you should have a rent book if you are paying rent weekly.

[andydd]

You'd want rid of them for what reason? How sad it is that you'd want to turf someone out if they found themselves unemployed! What if they found themselves unemployed for no reason of their own such as if they were made redundant for a start.

 

As for the law, if your renting any or part of your house out to anyone you have to by law provide them with a contract and a rent book, or your breaking the law FACT.

 

And you also have to by law provide them with a contract that states you have to give them a minimum of 1 months written notice, verbal contracts don't mean (edit), excuse my french but it's people like you who think they can get away with everything by spouting such crap about verbal contracts because they're not worth the paper you print them on aka NO PAPER! So there is no proof you ever agreed to anything and you would no doubt be quick to deny everything.

 

 

 

You've already said if they found themselves unemployed you'd "probably" want rid of them so which is it? "probably" or you'd only "be tempted" and I find it disgusting that most places say 'working only' or 'no dss' what about families with children who work part time (16 hrs a week) in order to claim tax credits, they are still entitled to Housing Benefit as well, do you agree with them not being entitled to somewhere to live as well simply because they work but claim some benefits, everyone is entitled to somewhere to live regardless, the problem with society these days is people only care about themselves and not others, it's never a case of scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, it's more a case of you scratch my back and I'll scratch my back, bl**dy disgusting attitude if you ask me.

 

 

 

Well she would be wouldn't she because it doesn't matter how nice someone is, with no proof that she's been renting part of her house out to someone she could simply just kick her lodger out with no notice at all, simply because he or she doesn't have a legally binding contract just so people like her and you can save a few quid here and there without caring about other people and the situations they might end up in if they ended up homeless just because of greedy landlords who don't want to/can't be (edit) to do it legally.

 

Why are you so disgusted ? Its my house and therefore my rules. I can do what I want. I'm just a person who has on occasion, supplemented my income by having a lodger, I'm not a money grabbing landlord or anything.

 

I wouldnt want an unemployed lodger for several reasons, firstly I'd want someone who is working as they are more likely to have a decent income and pay me on time, secondly if someone is unemployed, they are more likely to be at home in the day, this adds considerable cost due to extra heating, lighting, tv, pc use, etc. Lastly it involves extra paperwork and hassle.

 

This is nothing against unemployed people, as I'm one myself, having been made redundant.

 

If you are ever in the position of taking the (bold) step of inviting someone to share your home then you'd understand.

 

Andy

[andydd]

Thank you very much for your post Labtech81.

 

I spoken to a few other people, and they all say the same. Although it's the law to have a tenancy agreement and a rent book, if I ask for either now, she could just chuck me out and I wouldn't have anything to prove I was even there.

 

I've contacted the council who are looking for somewhere for me and I'm also desperately looking myself for somewhere that will let me stay on DSS.

 

David

 

This is simply not true, there is nothing law that states that you must provide either a tenancy agreement or a rent book or even notice for a live-in lodger , it is all purely contractual not statute law .

 

(" With regard to a non-resident landlord, the sharer/lodger must be given at least four weeks notice after the date when a notice to quit is given to them. With regard to resident landlords, although there is no prescribed period for giving notice, it is advisable to provide four weeks. You can specify a different period should you wish.")

 

There is not even a need for a written contract, it can be purely verbal.

 

The following is from the LandlordZone FAQ

 

Do Resident Landlords and Lodgers need to have a written agreement?

This is not strictly necessary but is always advisable. The agreement sets out the terms on which you are allowing the lodger to occupy your property and what happens if things go wrong:

• The amount of rent, how it is to be paid (standing order), when the amount can be reviewed and if necessary, increased.
  
• How much notice is required by either party.
  
• What meals and other services are to be provided
  
• What the Lodger and Landlord are expected to pay for.
  

Are there any rules on what rent can be charged?

This is purely a matter for the landlord and the lodger to agree between them - a market rent will be at a level similar to other lodgings and tenancies in the area. The agreement may have provision for rent review and increases, for example annually. Some older agreements (entered into before 15 January 1989) may come under the jurisdiction of the rent tribunal where a registered fair rent can be applied for.

 

What happens if we disagree and I want my lodger to leave?

Your lodger has a right to a reasonable period of notice to leave. He or she also has a right to the deposit back providing no damage is done and there's no outstanding rent.

 

What happens if my lodger refuses to leave or threatens violence?

This can occur, though it's very rare - most people will leave when you request it. Your lodger has no statutory rights as a tenant would, so once he or she has outstayed his or her welcome they are in fact a trespasser in your home. The police may assist, especially if you have been threatened in any way. You could resort to a lock-out, but in an extreme case you would apply to the county court as you would with squatters

 

 

Andy

[Emma1973]

rent book or even notice for a live-in lodger

 

If you see my post it continues links that say if rent is paid weekly then a rent book must be provided, most specifically the Shelter link.

[andydd]

If you see my post it continues links that say if rent is paid weekly then a rent book must be provided, most specifically the Shelter link.

 

Interesting link but im not convinced the information is strictly accurate, I'd like to know the statute law source of 'a rent book must be provided if rent is paid weekly' even for lodgers or 'excluded occupiers'. (This has never affected me as I've collected rent monthly as is the norm these days).

 

I'm assuming the 'Your Rent' paragraph is also refering to lodgers and 'exluded occupiers' too, if so, it makes little sense, it says rent cannot be increased during a fixed term, but what is a fixed term ?, whenever I've had a lodger its been an ongoing/rolling term, no fixed terms have ever been agreed, as is the norm for lodgers.

 

Andy

[Emma1973]

Landlord and Tenant Act 1985

 

Provision of rent books

4. Provision of rent books.

— (1) Where a tenant has a right to occupy premises as a residence in consideration of a rent payable weekly, the landlord shall provide a rent book or other similar document for use in respect of the premises.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to premises if the rent includes a payment in respect of board and the value of that board to the tenant forms a substantial proportion of the whole rent.

[andydd]

Landlord and Tenant Act 1985

 

Provision of rent books

4. Provision of rent books.

— (1) Where a tenant has a right to occupy premises as a residence in consideration of a rent payable weekly, the landlord shall provide a rent book or other similar document for use in respect of the premises.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to premises if the rent includes a payment in respect of board and the value of that board to the tenant forms a substantial proportion of the whole rent.

 

Ta..Interesting, (I'm often reading the L & T act 1985 as Im in dispute with my landlord over the lease and service charges and am currently started action in an LVT court.)

 

I'm pretty sure the above doesn't apply to 'lodgers' (i.e some sharing a property), it uses the term 'tenant' (which is described as a 'statutory tenant', which is not a 'lodger'), anyway..it wouldnt apply to me or anyone collecting rent monthly.

 

Andy

Edited December 17, 2009 by andydd