A warning to anyone dealing with Tax Credits Recoveries...

[merlin100]

Hi all,

just a quick question - got Mr Government Man crawling out of the woodwork chasing me for an alledged overpayment of Tax Credits.

He/she has hand-posted 3 letters now over the last 6 months saying they have tried to speak to me but to no avail. Last letter posted was last week when I was in and he/she certainly didnt knock on the door or ring the bell ( the doorbell is wireless with a audble sensor in every room thanks to my extravagent wife).

Now there can be 2 sets of circumstances here.....

 

The first goes back to April 2003 and the first claim I ever made. About 6 weeks after I claimed, they put a payment of £3500 into my bank account. Not really knowing how they worked at that time, I rang them asking if this was my entitlement and was it a lump sum up front? The woman I spoke to said that it was arrears and future payments would be made weekly. I did then ask how they could owe me £3500 in 6 weeks? But basically they didnt want to know, I even offered to return the money but she specifically stated that they didnt want it back!

A week later, my first payment was paid into the bank - along with another payment of £650! Week 2 - payment for Tax Credits along with a further £600!! Further calls proved just as useless.

So altogether, they paid me £4750 and refused to take it back.

These payments were in April, May and June 2003.

So are they Stat Barred and is the Stat Barred proceedure the same?

 

Second scenario - August 2004 and without any previous warning, my ex wife decided that she "wanted her life back" and buggered off (and there was me saying that she would never do me any favours). Before she left, she had managed to get the Child and Working Tax Credits transfered from my bank account, into hers. She left my 15 years old son here, and took my 10 years old with her (Child Tax Credits were being paid for both).

So I had to put a new claim in for my 15 years old.

What neither of us knew at that time, and because no-one had had time to ask him, was that my 10 years old wasnt happy at all about going with her, and after a month or so, started kicking-off and giving her problems until eventually, she sent him back to me on 3rd December 2004. This was great, although I was working 5 days a week, both kids grew up quickly and mucked in!

Now - knowing her as I do. I suspect she kept the claim for both kids going from the point of leaving. She also continued to claim the Child benefit until both became ineligeble for it.

Then, some 18 months later, I found out that she was STILL claiming for them both, even though my eldest was over 16, but in college!

Now this does sound like a simple and straightforward situation, and I suspect that whoever is investigating this has already spoken to her and she WILL have laid any blame squarely at my door.

But the only way that anyone will be able to confirm this is to talk to the kids ( now 21 and 16) and I may have a problem there. They are both good kids and would defend me to the hilt, but she is highly vindictive and wouldnt think twice about pressuring them into lying - this is what I have to try to avoid.

So the second situation is my problem, but is the first one Stat Barred?

Thanks all

[dx100uk]

well tax credits over payment is exempt the limitiations so no hiding there.

 

you obviously must of gotten previous letter from the tax credit lot about the overpayment? why has it gone to hand delivered stage?

 

have you actually spoken to them or written your story here?

 

dx

[merlin100]

Hi dx,

firstly, apart from 3 hand-posted letters over the last 6 months or so, no-one has contacted me otherwise, not ever.

I can and will sort it out, but simply wanted a few confirmations first - and this is the place to be to ask!

And why would they wait 5 - 6 years before coming after an overpayment?

[dx100uk]

that does seems odd.

 

have you phoned them to see what your record actually says?

 

seems very odd they have not sent the normal letters that they do.

even sounds a BIT IFFY TO ME.

 

keep us informed

 

dx

[merlin100]

Hi dx.

Phoned them yesterday (9/10). The woman I spoke to says they cannot tell me any info over the phone and that on my file, some inspector has written that a face to face meeting with me is "most important" (?)

No appointment was made although I did leave my current mobile number as I regularly work 80 to 90 hours a week ( not telling them that though)

Do you have any experience of this?

Thanks

[dx100uk]

nope

other than i was puzzled why no letters were sent, and now i'm even more puzzled.

i'd write asking for an explanation or a statement of your a/c [so to speak]

at least its on record, but not how much you owe.

i wouldn't give anyone anything till you have it in writting

 

dx

[TCman]

If an inspector has been assigned it sounds like either they are preparing for a court case or their is a compliance interest (suspected fraud).

 

When tax credits were set up in 2003 there were a lot of mistakes. From both the applicants and them. If tax credits are asking for money back from 2003 then it would mean one of 2 things. Either there was a mistake made in 2003 and an overpayment was accrued. This overpayment could have been in cross year recovery for the past 5 years ( a small amount being repaid automatically every week). When the claim came to an end, any over payment outstanding would have to be paid back directly. Normally on a 50/50 share with ex-partner.

 

The other scenario is that they suspect that you made a deliberate false claim in 2003 and are now investigating this.

 

The tax credit helpline should be able to advise if it is the first scenario but would be unable to advise if its the second.

[merlin100]

Hi TCMan, some of what you say fits the bill. If you look at my post, there is a substantial overpayment that I know about and evn though I rang them a few times - they were adamant that they didnt want it back.

I did read somewhere that if a claimant can prove he/she tried to return money to them ( in this case maybe proof of phone calls - if they keep recordings) then a tribunal has the capacity to write the amount off. This was a while ago so not sure if theyve moved the goalposts to compensate for this.

The other possibility is a long-standing fraud by my ex wife. I suspect they may have already spoken to her and she will have most certainly accused me. The fraud was basically her claiming Working and Child Tax Credits for our children when they lived with me, but as no-one as yet personally contacted me, they will only have one side of the story.

The only way this can be proven is for my kids to be questioned. I hate the thought of them being put in the middle of us, so to speak, but I know that if this is the reason they want to see me, and she finds out, she will put pressure on them to attest in her favour. Its ok for them to say they will simply tell the truth, but its quite another when a mother will deliberately put her kids in an untenable position.

This is the bit I am afraid of - nothing else. Even though they are now 21 and 16, Im still very protective of them.

But if there is no other way then I guess I will just have to bite the bullet and involve them.

[TCman]

They keep recordings of all calls made against your national insurance number going back to the start of the New Tax Credits system in 2003. You can request a copy of the call or a transcript.

 

In relation to letters, a duplicate copy of all letters is sent to both applicants on a joint claim, as long your address is active.

 

My only concern for your case would be the issue of award letters. Tax credits will only accept liability if they did something wrong. Now if they have issued award letters to you with incorrect details on it and you have not corrected it. It then becomes your responsibility. With the value of payment you have mentioned this sounds like there were incorrect details on your application form to have generated such large payments. You would need to prove that it was their mistake and not yours.

 

I would take it that you have disputed the overpayment by now...if now request the TC846 form or download it.

 

As far as returning the money goes, i have never heard the board of appeals overturn a decision on that basis.

 

The fraud you mentioned also wouldn't have any basis on any joint claim or joint overpayment. If your wife was claiming for the children when they were with you. It would mean you weren't claiming for them. As the Tax credit system doesn't allow 2 claims to run at the same time with the same children. If she claimed while not responsible for them, you had the children, then yes that is benefit fraud. But that is something they will pursue her for only.

[merlin100]

Hi TCMan, thanks for your informative reply.

Going back to 2003, I distinctly remember making at least 3 calls to them questioning not just the amount paid up front, but also the payment method. As the system was new, I had no common reference to work from so simply had to take their word for it. I originally thought that they must be paying me a lump sum up-front, so to speak. Its only when I called them that they told me it was arrears - and I did ask them how they reckoned they owed me so much when the claim was only 6 weeks old?

They were not interested in the slightest - even told me they didnt want it back.

 

The other possibility is when my ex and myself parted in 2004, my eldest stayed with me ( he was 15 then) and my youngest got dragged with her. Some 3 months later (December 2004) she gave him up to me as he never wanted to go with her in the first place and had made her life hell (good kid).

Now, because she had managed to get the Child and Working Tax Credits payments transferred from my bank account to hers, I had to make a new claim. I first claimed for the son who stayed with me from the day after she left, so that is all above board. When my youngest returned in December, I then successfully claimed for him, again, all above board.

Now some months later. I found out that both claims were still active, she had continued to claim for them, or rather, her claim hadnt been cancelled by her or Tax Credits and she had simply allowed it to continue.

When my eldest reached 16, he went to college for a year. My claim continued - but so did hers.

I have to admit that I purposely did nothing about his, the reason being that she was, and still is, an extremely vindictive woman, and the more she fraudulently claimed - the greater the weapon I had should I ever need it.

To this date I havent needed to use this against her. But it looks like I may have no choice now. I dont want to drop her in the proverbial, but there is a strong possibility she may have implicated me simply to take the heat off her.

[merlin100]

Hi all,

Throughout this year, I have had a guy call at my address once every couple of months re Tax Credits overpayments. As Im generally always at work, all he has left me is a brief note, no details except a phone number of their recoveries dept to ring. As I usually work 90 to 100 hours a week, Ive not bothered ringing.

Yesterday, he called again, this time leaving threats of County Court, the amount of debt (almost £2500) and the date I was supposed to have been overpaid ( 04/07).

Fed up of this, I rang them and got the most ignorant Indian woman you could ever hope to meet - throughout a 25 minute conversation, she must have said "Do you admit liability for this debt?" at least 20 times.

Bearing in mind the call was being recorded, I refused liability for this debt every time and continually asked for an explanation as to why they thought I did owe it, because as I kept trying to point out, I hadnt claimed anything in 2007.

Her only replies were, "It must be because of this or that and do you admit liability for this debt?"

My replies were "No I do not admit liability because you will not explain WHY you think I owe this money"

After 25 minutes it was obvious that they were not concerned as to whether I owed the money or not - they simply wanted admittance from me in a recorded call. When I finally asked her why she wouldnt provide reasons to why I owed them, she finally admitted that they had no records in that department. Just for fun, ( and as the call was recorded) I then accused her of a deliberate attempt at deception and that I would lodge an official complaint forthwith - which didnt go down too well!!

I finally got a number out of her to ring for the people who had the information. Her parting shot was to give me till Friday to contact her to arrange payment or she will issue court proceedings - to which I replied I will SAR you and obtain a copy of this phone call and play to the court your deliberate attempt to decieve me. That didnt go down very well. either!!

 

Now this is what you have to be careful of.......

 

Phoning the other number, which is the main contact number 0845 3003900, I got a very helpful Scottish woman who went through this previous claim with me. My last payment was in August 2006 which I agreed with. That was the time that my youngest son went back to live with his mother so I stopped the claim immediately.

This claim ran from April 2006 to April 2007.

Now because I didnt fill the claim pack in which they sent me at the end of the claim ( April 2007 - some 8 months after I stopped the claim by phone), they automatically assume that I wasnt entitled to any type of Tax Credits for the WHOLE of that claim period, so subsequently sent me a demand for the return of £2500 that I WAS actually entitled to up to August 2006!!

This apparently is how the system works, the very helpful woman actually apologised to me and is currently sending me a Dispute Form for me to put this whole ordeal in writing and assures me this will be the end of it ( we will see).

She also told me that they would have been quite happy to continue paying me right up to April 2007 and then reclaim the overpayment from me once I had returned the renewal forms. I objected to this by saying I wouldnt have wanted the money and most certainly would have not wanted to create a debt in this way that may have caused me future hardship ( getting it all into a recorded phone call see?).

 

Ive posted this because it got me wondering how many people out there may have been intimidated by the Collections Dept and are now repaying monies they perhaps shouldnt be simply because of what seems to be a ridiculous proceedure and if this post enlightens anyone - then great!

 

This is the dept to be very wary of should you need to phone them -

 

Debt Management Support Office

Churchgate

New Road

Peterborough

 

and the number is - 01733 865507.

 

Hope this helps someone....

[James 01]

Debt Recovery are not at fault over this and I think you are partly responsible. As you have not returned the 2006/07 declaration the system will finalise the 2006/07 award on the information held and issue the finalised award notice against which you can appeal. Were you notified the call is recorded? If it has reached the stage where County Court is mentioned you would have already received several warnings as presumably the 2006/07 award notice was issued around August / September 2007 or whenever the first specified date was for then.

 

Debt Recovery will not necessarily know the reasons why an overpayment has occurred. You state you have not claimed anything in 2007 but you said the payments ceased in August 2006 so you have claimed in 2006/07. Their records will show the overpayment is there which is why they think you owe the debt. I don't think anyone is trying to decieve you.

 

You coments about the award don't make sense. You state it ceased in August 2006 but ran from April 2006 to April 2007.

 

I can only assume from what you are saying there was a processing error for 2006/07 reducing your entitlement to nil. These are automatic when declarations are not returned. The problem is by now it is too late to appeal so legally the debt may be due.

 

Saying you will be paid to April 2007 cannot be right as you don't have an entitlement from August 2006 so have you heard correctly ?

 

As stated I don't think you can blame Debt Recovery over this. Have you ignored the previous award notice / warnings ? If so you have to accept some responsibility over this yourself.

[merlin100]

Thanks for the input James01. B

ut if you read my post again you will see that I did the correct thing and phoned them and cancelled the award when my situation changed.

 

Every radio, TV and newspaper advert you see and hear from Tax Credits stresses that you must tell them IMMEDIATELY of any change to your circumstances - and thats exactly what I did.

 

Why should it be my fault that I owe money because of nothing more than Tax Credits proceedure?

Once I informed them of my change in circumstances (Aug 06) why should I be penalised because I heard nothing more for a further 7 -8 months when my claim period ended and I was invited to claim again?

 

Yes, I probably threw the pack away assuming I wasnt entitled to reclaim, but that doesnt make me liable financially - more a victim of an incredibly lax proceedure and it becomes clear why so many thousands of people are falling victim to this.

 

But my post was more of a warning to others when approached by the Recoveries Dept.

Like you said, they have no records of your claim, so why would you phone them to dispute the claim once you are aware of this? They certainly cannot help you in any way.

 

Phoning that number is nothing more than inviting yourself to an assault of sheer intimidation.

The methods they attempt are nothing more than blatant fraud - they have no interest whatsoever regarding whether you owe the money or not, their sole purpose is to get you to admit liability within a recorded phone call.

 

The woman I spoke to was nothing more than an establishment drone programmed with one sentence only

- "Do you admit liability"?

Well no, I didnt and do not admit liability. I never will. I have no liabilty.

 

And to suggest that I should accept some responsibility simply because I didnt act when the puppet masters pulled the strings is rubbish.

Thanks to a most helpful woman on the claim line, I now know why they think I owe them money - and I also now know why I dont.

 

My post was nothing more than a warning to anyone with a threat from the Recoveries Dept.

Forewarned is forearmed. A

dmit to nothing with these people simply because they dont know if you do or do not owe them

- but they will try their best to trick you.

[James 01]

I am having a problem following this and something has to be wrong from what you are saying.

Can you clarify when your payments actually ceased? Were you paid WTC and CTC? Has one element ceased? When you called the Contact Centre you mentioned they ceased August 2006 or have they continued from August 2006 to when? So you notify a change of circumstances but the change is not processed so you were receiving payments from August 2006 to 5 April 2007. If that is the case you would also have received payments from 6 April 2007 to when the award would cease due to not returning the renewal form.

 

I cannot follow what you means by "Once I informed them of my change in circumstances (Aug 06) why should I be penalised because I heard nothing more for a further 7 -8 months when my claim period ended and I was invited to claim again". If this is the renewal form these are issued in cases where there is an award for all or part of the previous year. Their purpose is to finalise the previous year and re-set the award for the current year/ or finalise the previous year only.

 

As I said about the recovery they are correct to pursue the debt based on what they have. They have a debt which as far as they are concerned is final so they can and will pursue it. They would not require you to admit liability to pursue it and as stated if it has reached the County Court stage I think you have ignored previous demands to pay.

 

I suspect the debt could be legally due but if something has gone awry with processing there may be grounds to waive all or part of it when you return the dispute form. At the end of the day if you were issued the 2006/07 final details whether correct or not you have the right to appeal within 30 days and if you have not queried it for 2 years that is why the debt is pursued.

[merlin100]

Hi again James01,

let me explain this chronologically.

 

My claim ran from April 2006 to April 2007.

In August 2006 my situation changed. I therefore rang Tax Credits, explained what had happened and the claim was stopped from that point.

In April 2007 I recieved another claim pack. I probably binned it in the assumption that I was not entitled to anything.

Now, 3 years later, they are saying that I owe them £2500 for the period April to August 2006 - this was because I didnt return the claim pack in April 2007 which - according to them - resets the whole claim period and they "assume" I wasnt entitled to anything throughout the whole year.

The other side of the coin - and this is what they told me - is that they would have carried on paying the claim until April 2007 then reclaimed the overpayment back which would have been Sep 2006 to April 2007.

I pointed out that I would not have been happy doing this as it would have placed me in a financially untenable position - I didnt want to have to repay any debt for no other reason than a lax proceedure.

So you see, it does look like I do not owe them anything, but nowhere does it mention this proceedure clearly. As I have already said, any advertising from Tax Credits states in no uncertain terms that any change of circumstance must be reported to them immediately. And that is exactly what I did.

Had I known about the importance of returning the claim pack in April 2007, I would have done so - but then I ran the risk of being deliberately overpaid from Sep 2006 to April 2007, and I didnt want that.

But the main purpose of my post, once again, was to warn people about the treatment they may meet by phoning the Recoveries number. It seems we both agree that this dept hold no information regarding anyones claim, so should you ring them - what would be the purpose because surely the first question anyone will ask is why? The only answer must be "We dont know". So what could possibly come next? Nothing unless there is another agenda - and after the "conversation" I had with them, I believe there most certainly is another agenda - one purpose only, and that is to recover money whether you owe it or not. After all, they dont know if you do or do not owe anything - but they will try their damnest to recover it.

Most unfair.