Barclaycard 3 of my 14 issues any advice welcome

[nick20045]

Incidentally, I DO HOPE you are not still using these credit cards to make purchases and withdrawals.

 

I take it you understand that you CANNOT put an account in dispute but still expect to use any of the available credit on that account. Otherwise, and to be honest, IF you have been using any of the cards since you started the dispute, my advise will be "Just pay them cos even though they may not send you a copy of the original CCA they can claim you are still servicing the account".

 

In short, imagine what it will be like in front of a Judge if the bank says something like "The client wants to say he does not have any agreement with us but he still borrows money from us while disputing the account actually is enforceable or not".

 

The Judge will throw you out of Court in 3 seconds flat and slam you with all costs.

[slick132]

Just a quick point on Nick's comments.

 

The only reason for involving the FOS is to ask them to intervene and force a credit card company to supply a copy of the credit agreement.

 

There's no claim for compensation involved.

 

Nor is there any suggestion that the FOS will involve itself in deciding if the credit agreement is enforceable or not. That's not the remit of the FOS.

 

If Steve gets sight of the agreement after FOS involvement (and we've seen more cases recently where this has happened), a copy can be posted here for comment as to whether it's enforceable or not.

[nick20045]

Just a quick point on Nick's comments.

 

The only reason for involving the FOS is to ask them to intervene and force a credit card company to supply a copy of the credit agreement.

 

There's no claim for compensation involved.

 

Nor is there any suggestion that the FOS will involve itself in deciding if the credit agreement is enforceable or not. That's not the remit of the FOS.

 

If Steve gets sight of the agreement after FOS involvement (and we've seen more cases recently where this has happened), a copy can be posted here for comment as to whether it's enforceable or not.

Totally agree. As said, the maximum you can expect from the FOS is something like "Naughty bank. Send him a copy and make a small token payment to say You are sorry". BUT........ if the FOS (who are not legally minded but work more on probability) for example states that "A true copy of the agreement does not have to be a copy of the original agreement but a copy of the latest conditions will suffice" then that can backfire on you because the bank will then use that as an argument.

 

So you have to think twice before you take any action. You also have to consider which action will a: work in your favour most and b: which is best suited for your particular case.

[steve2577]

I have read through the posts and to be honest my first impression is: Is this a "Cowboy" attempt? (Sorry but that is what it comes over looking like)

 

I think the problem is that I am having problems focusing on the size of my problem I will try a bit harder example today just received a letter from EGG with a copy of a contract which has thrown up a few other issues

which I am desperate to post but will try to tidy up some of what you have highlighted.

 

 

Old piece of advise I once received: If you are going to do something either do it right in the first place or otherwise do not do it at all. If you do half ar$ed work then it will take you longer to finish cos you have to repair what you have already done and then finish the job.

 

I know you are right and I am wrong no real excuse here

 

 

And looking at one of your uploads which is upside down, with all due respect shows "You just fire away and hope for the best". In short, if you make a post and notice the upload is upside down why did you not reupload properly and then edit the post? Or am I (and other members) supposed to read it upside down? Also what you have to understand is that this is like a dog which has a bone. You want to take that bone from it. So you have to coax it into releasing that bone otherwise you can get your hand bitten. (Default filed, court costs, solicitor costs etc etc which you want to avoid at all costs if possible).

 

I have just rechecked the page Barclaycard sent and it is exactly like I posted the Bold was face up and the terms were upside down I actually reversed the page when I upped it so that the main body of text was the right way up but but now the Bold text is upside down.

 

So to recap 3 Barclaycard replies no signed copy of anything.

 

I will post what they have sent

 

 

Steve

[steve2577]

So

 

Do I issue a SAR requests somepeople say yes others say no this gets them off the hook and removes them from a default position and gives them another 40 days to comply.

 

Do I send a strong letter demanding a copy of agreement some say yes others say no.

 

Do I send a letter of complaint to the FSO some say yes this will force the bank to find a copy other say no this could backfire if the FSO says a copy is OK.

 

Which do I choose because whatever I do some will agree others will say that was wrong?

 

I know this might sound like another cowboy attempt but seriously what do I do next other than wait.

 

I am going to start another thread called Barclaycard (Dean Witter Morgan Stanley) as 2 of the Barclaycard issues are identical with the same replies etc. The other card previously dean witter Morgan Stanley I havent even recived a copy of any contract signed or unsigned.

 

Steve

Edited December 12, 2009 by steve2577
spelling mistake and extra paragraph

[nick20045]

So

 

Do I issue a SAR requests somepeople say yes others say no this gets them off the hook and removes them from a default position and gives them another 40 days to comply.

 

Do I send a strong letter demanding a copy of agreement some say yes others say no.

 

Do I send a letter of complaint to the FSO some say yes this will force the bank to find a copy other say no this could backfire if the FSO says a copy is OK.

 

Which do I choose because whatever I do some will agree others will say that was wrong?

 

I know this might sound like another cowboy attempt but seriously what do I do next other than wait.

 

I am going to start another thread called Barclaycard (Dean Witter Morgan Stanley) as 2 of the Barclaycard issues are identical with the same replies etc. The other card previously dean witter Morgan Stanley I havent even recived a copy of any contract signed or unsigned.

 

Steve

Have you read post #25? The part that says: "Now, back to the problem.........

 

I think it will help if you post (obviously edited) a copy of what your sent as a CCA application. I have seen CCA applications which are just possibly say 5 lines and there are also applications which are the "full McCoy". Posting a copy of what you sent can give us an idea of how Barclays may look at your application".

 

Have you read the comments especially by a Site Team member regarding the FOS?

 

How can you expect advise when you do not answer questions? I cannot tell you what I think because for all I know you may have made some mistakes which need correcting first.

 

This debt was created by you. Fair enough I give you credit because in one of your posts you admitted that it was greed and it is your fault. Then again you say you are 50 years old so should have been mature enough to know certain things.

 

Now if you are expecting some magic tricks and they will all vanish then you are wrong. Answer questions asked (providing they are within certain limitations and do not involve private information). THEN you can get advise. Some can be sorted at a flick of a switch. Others have to work on them.

 

We can only give advise on what we see. And an example of this is the reply you got today regarding the Tesco account. Now read that thread. You were on about sending off an SAR to them. Well not only have I told you what you need to send and the problem is finished but I have also saved you a £10 postal order plus £1.14 recorded delivery. What do you think an SAR is? A nuke bomb?!!! If you can solve the problem with a few simple letters then forget for a start sending an SAR. A CCA application is £1 and 14 days. An SAR is £10 plus 40 days. Which one do I try to go for to solve the problem as soon as possible?

 

p.s. You can always go stalking the manager of the credit company, see if you can collect some hairs that he/she leaves behind and try voodoo if you want a quick solution :D:D

Edited December 12, 2009 by nick20045

[nick20045]

I think the problem is that I am having problems focusing on the size of my problem I will try a bit harder example today just received a letter from EGG with a copy of a contract which has thrown up a few other issues

which I am desperate to post but will try to tidy up some of what you have highlighted.

 

Problem like these are like eating a chinese meal properly. A lot will mix the items with the rice. The rice is there to clean the tasting buds in your mouth. In short, for example you have the shrimp. Then you have a bit rice to clean the tasting buds so when you move to the spring rolls dipped in sauce you can taste the different aromas.

 

Hence, problems like these you split them. You go one one. You look at it, you then clean your brain from it and you move to another one. It is the same like a solicitor. Once you walk out of his office, his brain erases and he now thinks of the other clients problem to solve.

 

I know you are right and I am wrong no real excuse here

 

An old saying: A fool is not a person who makes mistakes for we all make mistakes. A fool is a person who repeats the same mistakes.

 

 

So to recap 3 Barclaycard replies no signed copy of anything.

 

I will post what they have sent AND A COPY OF THE CCA YOU ORIGINALLY SENT THEM. ALSO WHEN WAS THIS AGREEMENT ROUGHLY TAKEN OUT? It will give an idea what to deal with.

 

 

Steve

Answers in different colour. Need info so can look into it in more detail. Incidentally if you read what Barclays wrote to you it is a standard template letter same as in http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclaycard/231901-tony3x-barclaycard.html

[nick20045]

Seeing how you do not answer certain questions...........

 

Specimen letter if you want it:

Barclays Bank

Bla bla bla

Bla Bla bla

M21 3KK

 

By recorded Mail

 

xx/xx/2009

 

Dear Sirs

 

Your reference: xxxxxxxxx

My reference: Account now placed in dispute

 

I refer to your letter dated 26/11/2009 where instead of answering to my legally submitted s.77/s.78 application you have tried to give me a lecture in what your bank believes is how the Law should be interpreted.

 

I regret to note the attitude that your bank has developed and I also regret to note that you have not complied with my s.77/s.78 application.

 

Due to this fact, please note that I am now placing the account into dispute. Furthermore, I draw to your attention that I have now written to the Financial Ombudsman Services to ask for their assistance. Said assistance is to write to you and tell you that you are bound by Law to answer properly to a formal s.77/s.78 CCA request. I presume you do know that a s.77/s.78 application is for a true copy of a signed agreement and it does not mean you can send whatever you want claiming you have a right not to comply with the Law.

 

Once I receive word from the Financial Ombudsman Services I will understand that about the same time you should have also heard from them. This being the case, I will be writing to you to give you 7 days to comply with my application. You are to note that should your bank then not send me a true copy of a duly executed copy of the agreement, I will then put it on record that not only will the account stay in dispute but also your bank will have gone into default.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

xxxx

Edited December 13, 2009 by nick20045
Typo error

[nick20045]

That letter can be modified and used as well re Capital 1 in case they keep arguing re wanting a signature.

 

Also same letter to FOS from Tony's thread can be modified for Capital 1.

[slick132]

Hi Steve,

 

Can you confirm if, on this BC a/c, there were any penalty charges or mis-sold PPI added to the a/c.

 

If you don't have all your statements going back at least 6 years, get them by sending off a SAR - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/110--data-protection-act-1998-subject-access-request-

 

Despite Nick's reservations about the use of a SAR, it has proved to be a very useful tool when dealing with the banks.

 

I see you're unsure about what actions to take, but you will learn quickly from reading other threads. It's a steep learning curve but I'm sure you're up to it.

 

Re the attempt to get sight of your credit agreement, if BC have not yet given you a Final Response, see here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclaycard/210467-barclaycard-ex-morgan-stanley.html#post2644426

 

If they have confirmed that "this is our Final Response", send the complaint off to the FOS, as per my draft in Tony's thread linked earlier.

[nick20045]

 

Despite Nick's reservations about the use of a SAR, it has proved to be a very useful tool when dealing with the banks.

 

Hey!!!!!!!! I am after saving a tenner. :lol: If need be can always send one off later on.

 

You DO KNOW that in London a tenner is equivalent of 3 hotdogs and some baked beans on them????? :eek:

Edited December 14, 2009 by nick20045

[steve2577]

I have complained to the FSO for 3 Barclaycard issues 2 of which are Barclays and 1 was previously Morgan Stanley.

 

 

I have received a letter from BC ref what was previously a Morgan Stanley (dated 1999) and they are very bullish in that they have finally supplied a hard to read copy with a few things blanked out and clear to me a digital copy.

 

They also attached a copy of the Barclaycard terms and conditions. I dont know when Barclaycard purchased all the business of Morgan Stanley but it must of been around 2007.

 

I am puzzled if they have supplied an original copy why not attach the original terms and conditions which were in force at the time.

 

I am thinking about asking for a clearer copy and also a copy of the original terms that were in force at the time.

 

The again would it not be best to wait for court action and defend?

 

 

Steve

[MARTIN3030]

Yes probably.

 

I saw also an identifier in one of the shots of their letters posted-its a name.

Given that the date also appears-they could ID you from this !!

[steve2577]

Barclaycard 3 issues one of which was Morgan Stanley many years ago.

 

I have received very little from BC except for the usual re-contsructed (allegedly) documents. I have complained to the FOS and again been fobbed off with the usual tell us your problem we will ask BC a couple of questions and then you can go away.

 

However the card which was formerly Morgan Stanley Barclaycard have responded with great enthusiasm maybe this was the first time they have laid eyes on what could be some sort of agreement.

 

But as you would expect things have gone to their heads see the next letter and I have a bit of a conundrum.

 

 

 

 

They amazingly state that the terms (which were Barclaycard terms) somehow correspond to the agreement which was morgan Stanley now bearing in mind the card was issued in 1999 and Barclaycard didn't take over the Morgan Stanley business until 2008? ish how can the agreement which was somehow manipulated (allegedly to try and hide) as much as possible the words Morgan Stanley but they are visible on parts of the paperwork and and they clearly state in the above letter this is their final response they state that the T&C's provided (Barclaycards T&C) are part of the original paperwork.

 

Wow what a fantastic piece of detective work (give the person that put this together a bonus and make it a big one).

 

Anyway here is my dilemna

 

Do I continue to correspond with the FOS and give them the opportunity to help BC correct the situation?

 

Do I write to BC informing them of the error and ask them to do it again but I cant do this as I have already had their Final Response on this matter?

 

Do I say nothing and wait for court proceedings to commence?

 

I know what I want to do but I would like advice so as not to do anything which might be unhelpful in the future.

 

Finally they state in the letter the agreement is in the prescribed form, now I am a bit thick and normally accept things at face value but this agreement is missing a lot and is not readable it mentions insurance a lot in fact most of the document is about Payment Protection 40% of the whole agreement in fact and has no mention of APR at all but the really interesting bits have been blanked out (probably was accidental) but never mind we might see what is beneath the blank bits in court. I am sure that BC know when they are write and when they are wrong and they appear so so sure that what they have provided adheres to all the criteria maybe I need to look again.

 

 

(sorry about amending this a few times I wanted to take out any references to any names so as not to slander anyone and I kept changing the photobucket file but had to rename it in the end)

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited January 23, 2010 by steve2577

[slick132]

Hi Steve,

 

I can't see a link to the agreement, or did you remove it.

 

I would wait for the FOS to come back to you although, if BC have now sent the agreement anyway, the FOS will probably just confirm that BC says they've sent the document to you.

 

When we see the agreement, we can advise further.

[steve2577]

Hi Slick

 

The agreement BC sent isnt in a state to post very blurred with bits blanked off and it's from Morgan Stanley with BC's T&C's so its a bit of a dogs dinner (to be honest if they all sent what BC sent I would be doing a jig and throwing a stret party it's that bad). I haven't had time to inspect properly but I dont think there are any prescribed terms on it at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speak soon

[steve2577]

I will try to scan it in a higher resolution and will post it ASAP. so you can all have a bit of a laugh.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[steve2577]

Just received Default Notice from Mercers Dated 22/01/09 giving me until the 8th Feb.

 

This was the account that they managed to find an old Agreement which was formerly Morgan Stanley I will post later.

[nick20045]

22 plus 4 days post (unless sent recorded mail and have proof of delivery) = 26. 26 plus 14 (allowed days) = 40. Jan has 31 days. 40 less 31 = 9th February should be the expiry date.

 

Edit: 22nd was Friday. It says 4 working days after the date of posting. Saturday and Sunday are not classed as working days. Hence, really if as per Practice Direction it should be:

 

22nd, forget 23 and 24, add 4 days after the 25th makes it the 29th. Then should add 14 days on top to remedy the default.

Edited January 26, 2010 by nick20045

[nick20045]

2. Practice Direction

Service of Documents - First and Second Class Mail.

 

With effect from 16 April 1985 the Practice Direction issued on 30 July 1968 is hereby revoked and the following is substituted therefore.

1). Under S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 service by post is deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved, at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

2). To avoid uncertainty as to the date of service it will be taken (subject to proof to the contrary) that delivery in the ordinary course of post was effected:-

(a) in the case of first class mail, on the second working day after posting;

(b) in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting.

"Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.

3). Affidavits of service shall state whether the document was dispatched by first or second class mail. If this information is omitted it will be assumed that second class mail was used.

4). This direction is subject to the special provisions of RSC Order 10, rule 1(3) relating to the service of originating process.

 

8th March 1985

J R BICKFORD SMITH Senior Master

Queen's Bench Division