HELP NEEDED ASAP - Disciplinary tomorrow!!

[karennol]

Hi,

 

Apologies for the demanding title but I am panicking a bit about this .

 

My partner has a disciplinary hearing tomorrow, Carl is a mobile engineer and the boss is saying that he cant account for 2 hours on one day and 1.5 on another. We rec the letter on Sat. We wrote a letter requesting that the meeting be postponed on the grounds that 2 working days isn't enough time to prepare a defence and arrange to be accompanied. It is a small firm and there is no active union and because carl doesn't want to compromise any of his colleagues' positions, he requested that I attend with him. This has been refused which he is entitled to do we just thought we would take a chance.

 

The boss had refused a postponement saying that 2 days is adequate notice. He also said that is carl doesn't attend then a decision will be made in his absence, he has also put in the letter that if carl doesn't attend the meeting then it will be considered unauthorised absence and gross misconduct.

 

The boss is discussing the matter openly in front of carl's colleauges and carl has overheard several phone conversations with customers "encouraging" them to say that carl wasn't there when he said he was. Carl can account for all of his time and has 2 witnesses who will verify this, he had actually done nothing wrong at all. I think this harks back to a complaint carl made about the use of racist language in the office (the main culprit was to the suggested impartial note take at the meeting!!! we objected and someone else has been appointed). I think this will be the first of many "problems" his boss will come up with inorder to force him out !!!

 

He has to attend tomorrow by himself....any advice will be appreciated.

 

Thanks and sorry for the lengthy post,

 

Karen

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Hi KAREN DUE to the urgency may I feel that you should click the red triangle, this will open a dialogue box can I suggest you

leave a message for the site team asking that they direct your post to forum contributers with HR expertise, it really does work.

 

Andy

Edited September 3, 2009 by old_andrew2007
SPELLING

[Rooster-UK]

This looks to be totally out of order, in my opinion.

I am trying to contact one of our HR genuises (genii ?) to give you some advice.

It's a pity that you've left it so late, but watch this thread.

 

Regards, Rooster.

[Rooster-UK]

Right, I have asked someone to have a look at this thread and advise you.

 

Don't go away.

 

Look for a post by Ell-Enn. If you press F5 on your keyboard, occasionally, it refreshes the screen so that you will be able to see any new posts on the thread.

[karennol]

Thanks Rooster, we only got the letter refusing the postponement at 5pm today so its panic stations!!!

[Rooster-UK]

I think that Ell-Enn must be tied up with something.

I've sent a message to our other resident genius, Elche, so hopefully you will have some answers soon.

 

Regards, Rooster.

[Ell-enn]

Hi there, in my opinion 2 days is not long enough for your partner to gather the information he needs.

 

Has an investigatory meeting already been held?

 

Has he been advised in writing exactly what incidents are to be discussed at the disciplinary hearing?

 

Does the company have a disciplinary policy?

[karennol]

hiya,

 

thanks for getting back to me!!

 

An investigtory meeting hasn't been held, carl has been fired at with questions but the answers not listened to. He can actually account for all of his time! We have just been through it!

 

There is a policy, a standard RBS one as the company banks with them its part of the package apparently.

 

In the letter he was sent it specifies the dates and time that carl needs to account for.

 

How do you think he should play it, I have told him to make sure he states that he feels that the meeting is unfair due to the notice period and that he feels he has been intimidated into attending?

 

What do you think?

 

Ta

 

Karen

[Ell-enn]

Firstly, I think he should state at the start of the meeting that he does not feel he has been given sufficient time to prepare, and make sure the note taker records that.

 

Does he have written witness statements from those whose evidence he is relying on regarding his whereabouts? - in other words how is he going to prove he was where he says he was?

[karennol]

He has one statement already but the other woman said she would have it for Mon but she is willing to be contacted via phone in the mean time.

 

His boss is saying that he called the office at 3 on one of the days and said he didn't have anymore jobs on but never came back to the office.

 

the call was at 3.37 (have phone bill)

he didn't say he was finished (person who took the call said she will confirm this)

His boss is saying that he wasn't at a particular nursing home on the day in question (this is the statement that will be ready on mon)

He also has a statement to say he was at another home at 4.45 he finishes at 5.

[elche]

 

The boss had refused a postponement saying that 2 days is adequate notice. He also said that is carl doesn't attend then a decision will be made in his absence, he has also put in the letter that if carl doesn't attend the meeting then it will be considered unauthorised absence and gross misconduct.

 

 

Hi,

 

I'm sorry I'm a bit busy for a full answer, as as Ell-enn is here as well, I'm sure you'll get some sound advice.

 

I just wanted to make the point that :

 

Any 'worker' who is required or invited by his employer to attend a disciplinary or grievance hearing has the right to be accompanied. and furthermore,

 

The employer is obliged to agree to requests for a postponement of the hearing to accommodate a chosen companion, provided the request is reasonable and any proposed alternative time/date does not delay the hearing by any more than five working days.

 

Thus by refusing your right to postpone (for up to 5 working days - you say 2) to arrange rep, then your employer has breached one of your Statutory Rights.

 

Hope this helps

 

Che

[Ell-enn]

In the disciplinary policy what is the procedure i.e. does it state there should be an investigatory meeting?

 

The ACAS code of practice states:

 

• carry out a thorough

investigation before

any meeting

• give the employee copies of

any information to be used

• arrange another meeting

within five days if the

employee or accompanying

person cannot attend

• consider fresh evidence

 

As Elche has rightly stated - it looks like the employer has breaches your partner's statutory rights.

[elche]

Sorry for the 'cut and paste job' but this may help also:

 

Subjecting workers or their companions to a detriment

 

Employers are prohibited from subjecting a worker to any detriment on the ground:

• •that the worker exercised (or sought to exercise) the right to be accompanied
  
• •that a companion of that worker exercised (or sought to exercise) a companion's legitimate rights at a hearing
  
• •that the worker made (or sought to make) a proper request to postpone a hearing
  
• •that the worker, whilst acting as a companion, exercised (or sought to exercise) a companion's legitimate rights at a hearing
  

There is a three month time limit from the act (or deliberate failure to act) complained of. This may be extended in the case of continuing acts, series of acts/omissions, or where it was not reasonably practicable for the claim to be presented in time.

 

Dismissing workers or their companions

 

Where a worker is dismissed on any of the grounds listed above in the Subjecting workers or their companions to a detriment section, that dismissal will be automatically unfair, and the worker may bring an unfair dismissal claim, in which he may be awarded any of the unfair dismissal remedies (reinstatement, re-engagement, basic award, compensatory award).

The normal unfair dismissal regime is adjusted in three important respects:

• •the right to claim unfair dismissal for this reason extends to all workers, as defined (not just employees)
  
• •there is no qualifying term of service required
  
• •interim relief is available
  

 

Thus if you can link any dismissal, if indeed he is dismissed, to to the RTBA, then you have a potentially auto unfair dismissal claim.

 

Che

[mariefab]

In the letter he was sent it specifies the dates and time that carl needs to account for.

 

If these dates and times are the only notified issues for the disciplinary hearing to deal with then this is good news.

 

As Carl can account for those periods and provide witnesses for corroboration it should be the end of the matter.

 

It might be an idea to prepare a document laying this out for the record.

He could title it Disciplinary hearing and the date,

describe the charges,

then lay out his defence.

He could print 2 copies to take to the meeting,

sign them himself,

put 'received by' and 'date at the bottom,'

hand a copy to whoever holds the meeting,

ask them to sign and date receipt of his own copy for him to keep.

[karennol]

he has said that he has given reasonable notice (2 days) if carl doesn't attend then a decision will be made in his absence. he also said that failure to attend the meeting is unauthorised absence, this isn't true...he has the right to refuse to attend as long as he is in work it isn't unauthorised absence.

 

No proper meeting has been arranged to investigate.

 

He has been given a "statemement of relevant facts" it isn't signed or dated and doesn't say who has produced it. it is also very vague. This is the basis of the disciplinary.

 

I thought maybe he should call in sick tomorrow? can he still make a decision in his absence?

 

Karen

[mariefab]

I think this harks back to a complaint carl made about the use of racist language in the office

 

If this complaint was made to the same Boss and if, instead of dealing properly with the complaint, the Boss is using the tactics you've described in this thread in an effort to force Carl out; this is victimisation

Edited September 2, 2009 by mariefab
for clarity

[mariefab]

I thought maybe he should call in sick tomorrow?

 

I don't think that's a good idea.

At present it's his Boss who isn't behaving properly.

Two wrongs ...etc.

 

As previously advised, if Carl feels that he hasn't been given sufficient time to prepare for the meeting, he can ask for up to a 5 day postponement.

 

I'd suggest doing this in writing and handing it in immediately on arrival at work. Again 2 copies and ask them to sign and date receipt of his own copy. (Makes it a bit harder to say no.)

[karennol]

he has already been refused a postponement...is it worth asking again?

 

thanks for all your help,

 

Karen

[mariefab]

he has already been refused a postponement...is it worth asking again?

 

Yes. Do what I suggest in post #17 anyway.

If the Boss has a secretary it might be best to hand it to him/her as they'd probably be more likely to sign for receipt.

 

If the Boss again refuses to postpone the meeting; ask for the refusal in writing.

[mariefab]

I suggest that Carl also takes an A4 pad or notebook to work with him tomorrow in case the Boss irrationally insists on conducting the Disciplinary meeting regardless.

 

If this happens then, as Carl will be unaccompanied and will therefore need to make his own notes as the meeting progresses, he will be able to use this to set the pace of the meeting to some extent.

 

If, during the meeting, the Boss brings up matters that were not covered by the letter you received then he can ask for an adjournment/postponement of the meeting so that he has time to assess and prepare a response to any new evidence or accusations.

 

If at the end of the meeting, or later that day, Carl is asked to sign the notes made by the appointed note taker; he can reasonably refuse to do so until he has taken them home and compared them to his own notes.

[karennol]

UPDATE

 

Morning folks....first I wanted to say that I really appreciate your help on this, it has been really worrying me!!

 

Carl took another letter into his boss today saying that we wanted a postponement. There was space on the letter for him to sign and date it. He accepted the letter but refused to sign it to say he had recieved it (GUILTY!!!!!!).

 

The meeting is still going ahead but carl overheard him on the phone saying he is planning on getting rid of the engineering dept (carl is the only engineer!!) and also said that he has only looked into this because of the other trouble (ie carl's compalint about racist language)!!!!!

 

I AM FUMING!

 

 

Karen

[mariefab]

Carl took another letter into his boss today saying that we wanted a postponement. There was space on the letter for him to sign and date it. He accepted the letter but refused to sign it to say he had recieved it

 

When he arrives home get Carl to make a note, on his own copy of this letter, of the approximate time that the letter was received by his Boss and the names of any witnesses.

 

The meeting is still going ahead

 

Do you mean today?

[scousegeezer]

Hi Karennol,

Ive just had a read through all of this. I am no emplyment expert, but I have been a union rep in recent history . Before being made unemployed short while ago.

 

Just some thoughts. Is your other half a member of a union/ professional body. If so get on to them right away. See if they can get you some representation.

 

Secondly, get your other half to make notes about the conversations he has heard - getting rid of the engineering dept etc. Make them official by signing and dating them , todays date if this is when he has remembered them. Also get him to make a note of who else may have heard thje conversations. This is in preparation for ang legal battle later on. Unfair dismisal etc.

 

The boss is obviously trying to cut down on costs and does not want to pay redundancy.

When making the notes suggested above, he must include the times and dates the conversations took place and the reason why he is only making his notes at a later date. Being honest will make the notes appear more honest and give them integrity.

[karennol]

Yep....the meeting is at 4pm. Still going ahead!!!

 

Carl has some good evidence in his favour but think his boss will just do what he wants really. Fingers crossed he wont get the sack!!

 

The boss has had someone follow him round writing down everything he says to carl. He is obviously anticipating some come back. I think carl has a good case for unfair dismissal if it goes that far.

 

Will let you know what happens.

 

Thanks guys!

 

Karen

[mariefab]

This complaint about racist language that Carl made;

Did he complain to his Boss verbally or in writing?

What action, if any, has his Boss taken about resolving this complaint?

(Other than this current discipllinary action.)