What to do next....M&S application form received

[retap-falco]

OK, I'm now getting to grips with all this hokum, but I'm now starting to get some feedback from our creditors..

My OH has an old M&S storecard account, taken on in 1988. This was converted to an M&S Money credit card some years ago, not by request but as an automatic re-issue.

We have recently run out of money, so have had to chop our credit card debts down to voluntary payments of £10 month. M&S have been obliging and accepted this (the only ones may I add), but I CCA s78'd them anyway.

What has come back is a legibly copy of the Application form, signed and dated, with the Terms and Conditions of use on the back side. In the T's & C's it does mention interest rates and dates of payment, so I am not sure if this fulfils the requirements of the "Prescribed terms".

Now, this is an Application form for the Chargecard... not a Visa card as it has become.

Any input?

[cashins]

If the reverse side, is in fact really the reverse side and they can prove it!! (It also needs the credit limit - or the means it is determined) it is aurguably enforceable.

 

M & S had big problems with the OFT over the way they converted these cards and THAT may give an enforceability problem for them. Not having a M&S, I'm not to well up on them but hopefully somebody may expand on this

 

David

[cerberusalert]

Can you scan it, remove identifying details and post it up?

[retap-falco]

This is the Application form

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af73/retap-falco/MSCCA.jpg

 

These are the T's & C's

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af73/retap-falco/MSCCA1.jpg

 

There are a number of things I picked up on..

The microfische number is matched on the Application Form and to the fische, but the other scan with the T's & C's has no identification at all. In fact, it looks like it has been folded between the words.. Account Card and Application form, so you can just make out the reverse of Application Form through the scan, but unfortunately, we do not know what the application form was for, and there is nothing to tie it in with the Fische Number on the application for itself.

Also, this was for a Storecard, for a credit limit of £500. This somewhere became a Master Card with a credit limit of £10,000.

Also, this form was signed in the local M&S store by a member of the Accounts staff, the signature is unfortunately missing, but the name is legible on my copy.

Anything else... let me know.

[cerberusalert]

Those T&Cs cannot be the reverse of the application form, as you rightly say the words 'Application Form' are bleeding through, whereas the signed document has 'Account Card Application Form' on it.

[ODC]

This is a very interesting thread. M&S issued loads of people these Mastercards with a 10 grand limit to replace their Chargecards. Most people never actually applied for a CREDIT CARD.

 

It would seem as if they havent got the origianl forms anyway if they are reliant on a microfiche copy. They are obliged to keep originals for six years AFTER an account is closed.

[retap-falco]

Those T&Cs cannot be the reverse of the application form, as you rightly say the words 'Application Form' are bleeding through, whereas the signed document has 'Account Card Application Form' on it.

Yes.. a bit fishy I think (or just slack QA procedures by a scanning bureau).

Would you say Cerebus, that the 1974 Act was fulfilled on this one in terms of Prescribed terms being valid?

[retap-falco]

This is a very interesting thread. M&S issued loads of people these Mastercards with a 10 grand limit to replace their Chargecards. Most people never actually applied for a CREDIT CARD.

 

It would seem as if they havent got the origianl forms anyway if they are reliant on a microfiche copy. They are obliged to keep originals for six years AFTER an account is closed.

 

Just been looking at the OFT judgement on M&S on this one. They got their knuckles rapped by the OFT for Inertia Selling, saying that "this could have damaging consequences for customers".. too flipping right! Typical OFT though, no further action. Hmmm:|

[retap-falco]

Those T&Cs cannot be the reverse of the application form, as you rightly say the words 'Application Form' are bleeding through, whereas the signed document has 'Account Card Application Form' on it.

 

Sorry Cerebus, just re-read your posting... It looks from the scan of the T's & C's that there is part of the form folded over (the part that contains the words Account Card). My point is though that the T's & C's could have been "upgraded" and "inserted" on the copy they sent me. Surely, the obverse should have had a fische number on it to identify it?

[Abby25]

Hi,

 

Take a look at Steven's sticky ... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful.html

 

As far as I am aware, S61(a) of The Act, states that the executed agreement has to contain the prescribed terms in the prescribed format, this does not mean that the agreement has to be one page but can run to several pages, but the pres terms must proceed the borrowers signature...

 

General terms, such as those in T&Cs can be embodied in another document by reference (S61 part b), and cover such things as late payment penalty charges, how they may close the account and others ... however, I'm not an expert, this is just from my own current dealings, and understanding of whats been explained to me and what I've read.

 

A good place to start would be to have a read of Steven4064's sticky, its a great guide and will certainly point you in the right direction...

 

Abs x

[vint1954]

Hi,

 

Take a look at Steven's sticky ... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful.html

 

As far as I am aware, S61(a) of The Act, states that the executed agreement has to contain the prescribed terms in the prescribed format, this does not mean that the agreement has to be one page but can run to several pages, but the pres terms must proceed the borrowers signature...

 

General terms, such as those in T&Cs can be embodied in another document by reference (S61 part b), and cover such things as late payment penalty charges, how they may close the account and others ... however, I'm not an expert, this is just from my own current dealings, and understanding of whats been explained to me and what I've read.

 

A good place to start would be to have a read of Steven4064's sticky, its a great guide and will certainly point you in the right direction...

 

Abs x

The prescribed terms must be within the 4 corners of the signed agreement, that is on either side of a single sheet that bears the signature.

[Alphageek]

The T&Cs are clearly a tri-fold design whereas the application form is not.

 

If those T&Cs were originally on the back of that app form, I'll be very surprised.

 

I don't think even a junior designer would create that hybrid.

[retap-falco]

The T&Cs are clearly a tri-fold design whereas the application form is not.

 

If those T&Cs were originally on the back of that app form, I'll be very surprised.

 

I don't think even a junior designer would create that hybrid.

 

Can't say that I agree with you there A-G. They both look like they are from similar books of application agreements (on the application form you can see the remains of the perforations), but the T's & C's look like they have been folded over, possibly to hide a different fische number.. I don't know.

Anyhow... does this look like an enforcable agreement?

[Abby25]

Hi,

 

I've previously been advised by the good experts on here, that if the contract consists of more than one singular, one sided page (which of course it can), there has to be clear reference on the leading document, to any other pages that are intended to form part of the regulated agreement ..... be it by clear reference i.e refer to the t&cs overleaf, or refer to the document noted as page 2 of this agreement (with the pages clearly numbered), .... etc .. (you get the picture !!)

 

Without any clear noted association between the two (apologies if there is reference and I've missed it), together with the anomolies on the bleed through evidenced, I believe they will struggle to prove they were one complete document, presented to you as one at the time of signature.

 

I've also previously been advised that prescribed terms have to be clearly identified, and can not be hidden away in the t&cs without specific reference to their location.

 

So, if you fancied a challenge, you could go along with the vibe, that you contest what they have sent you is a true copy of your original agreement, that there are no clear prescribed terms detailed, and that you also dispute the authenticity of the copy document provided. I would advise them that any court action they may instigate will require presentation of the original document for examination, which may be by court order if not volunteered upon request ... or something along those lines ..... (that should shake them if they have "reconstructed" your agreement...!!

 

I've had M&S agreements back, and neither of them, as claimed by M&S, had the t&cs on the back, and they are around the same time as your app, in fact one quite clearly had a prepaid address printed instead .... so it is quite possible they are trying to throw a fast one on this ....

 

Anyway, I'm sure there will be lots more advice and opinions given, so wish you well ...

 

Abs x

[retap-falco]

Thanks Abs.. that's what I was concluding myself, but I think I will contact M&S and ask them if they are able to provide a better copy of the original (without mentioning why). To be fair to M&S, they have behaved very proper throughout so far, without threats (so far).

I have just turned my attentionsto good old NatWest, who are behaving like real prats at the moment.

Ho hum.. ever onward and upward

 

Have a nice day:)

[ODC]

Surely if this document refers to a charge card how can they seek to use it to enfoce an alleged Credit Card debt

[retap-falco]

That's true, and it doesn't have any account number or card number printed on it, so one account would have to be closed and another one opened. Hmm. That's food for thought. And it all got handed off the HSBC at some stage when they took over M&SFS.

[vint1954]

Hi,

 

I've previously been advised by the good experts on here, that if the contract consists of more than one singular, one sided page (which of course it can), there has to be clear reference on the leading document, to any other pages that are intended to form part of the regulated agreement ..... be it by clear reference i.e refer to the t&cs overleaf, or refer to the document noted as page 2 of this agreement (with the pages clearly numbered), .... etc .. (you get the picture !!)

 

Without any clear noted association between the two (apologies if there is reference and I've missed it), together with the anomolies on the bleed through evidenced, I believe they will struggle to prove they were one complete document, presented to you as one at the time of signature.

 

I've also previously been advised that prescribed terms have to be clearly identified, and can not be hidden away in the t&cs without specific reference to their location.

 

So, if you fancied a challenge, you could go along with the vibe, that you contest what they have sent you is a true copy of your original agreement, that there are no clear prescribed terms detailed, and that you also dispute the authenticity of the copy document provided. I would advise them that any court action they may instigate will require presentation of the original document for examination, which may be by court order if not volunteered upon request ... or something along those lines ..... (that should shake them if they have "reconstructed" your agreement...!!

 

I've had M&S agreements back, and neither of them, as claimed by M&S, had the t&cs on the back, and they are around the same time as your app, in fact one quite clearly had a prepaid address printed instead .... so it is quite possible they are trying to throw a fast one on this ....

 

Anyway, I'm sure there will be lots more advice and opinions given, so wish you well ...

 

Abs x

Non prescribed terms and conditions can be within an attached referenced document.

 

The core credit agreement, has to contain your name, their name, prescribed terms and right to cancel agreement, all contained within the 4 corners of the document that you signed and dated. They should also sign this. It can be 2 sides of one sheet of paper, but not separate sheets.

 

Other Terms and conditions, such as they may want you to wear a daffodill in your hear on every second thursday, can be in the general Terms and conditions.

 

I would also say, in my opinion if any of the lesser terms and conditions concern the prescribed terms, then these must also be referenced in the main agreement.

[vint1954]

Surely if this document refers to a charge card how can they seek to use it to enfoce an alleged Credit Card debt

ODC is right. They are 2 separate products.

 

Just like a builder saying, this is the contract that you signed for me to build you a house. I have now sold it to an ice cream salesman, so you need to buy 15 99's off him each week.

[ODC]

If the documents were legible you should be able to see if it refers to a CHARGECARD or CREDIT CARD

[retap-falco]

Hi ODC, the document is perfectly legible, and it does read Chargecard, with a ticked credit limit of £500

[ODC]

Well a chargecard is NOT a CREDIT CARD. You never asked for a Credit Card. So it looks like they have no proof that you signed any agreement for a Credit Card

[vint1954]

Well a chargecard is a different product. Can only be used in M&S, whereas a credit card can be used anywhere.

 

I would write back to them asking for the credit card agreement, not the older charge card.