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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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Barclays Capital - Rate swaps.


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Can I suggest that everyone on this forum go and see their MP with all the relevant paperwork (and paperwork not provided such as ISDA Master Agreements etc) and ask that they take some action.

 

Examples of things to request include contacting the Commons Treasury select committee and Mark Hoban MP Financial Secretary to the Treasury re this issue. For those of us with complaints lodged with the Ombudsman ask your MP to contact them and request that he be kept informed of all developments. For those of us who have received less than satisfactory decisions from the Ombudsman (most of us I would think) ask him/her to contact them re their concerns over the obvious bias shown towards the banks.Ask them to contact the FSA demanding an inquiry into what appears to be mass mis-selling aimed at SME's across the country and across all sectors of the economy. One thing to impress upon your MP, most of us I would think have stopped spending due to financial restraints imposed by the swap, imagine that multiplied by all of us in this situation and how much money that has taken out of the economy at a time when the Govt wants us spending to get the recovery underway.The more of us that do this the more likely it is that Parliament will sit up and take notice and action taken. Thank you for your time

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  • 4 weeks later...
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Greetings all,

 

Its been a while since i last logged in. Seems the list of those affected grows ever longer.

 

I was one of the first to have my complaint heard by the FOS. It was a complete waste of time. I was basically told that i should have said NO to the deal. No sh1t sherlock!

 

Any way i guess i accepted my fate and have been struggling to make ends meet. Fortunately my businesses fortunes are improving so the repayments are becoming a little easier to find.

 

However, just as i begin to relax a little the good old boys of the RBS come riding back into town to give me another kicking. All of a sudden my accounts are switched from my normal run of the mill relationship manager to a specialised lending manager. The reason because they feel more exposed to a possible bad debt.

 

In essence what they have done is change the goal posts with regard to security on my loan deal. They have written down the values of my property by 60% of the 2007 value . In a nutshell i now don't have enough security to cover the outstanding debt plus the termination fee which is considered a liability.

 

Valuations are now going ahead ( at my cost ) which will determine the 2011 values. The bank will then use a magical and mystical calculation agent to determine that my security is 7/8ths of bugger all and come back to me for more security. If a fail to provide said security and/or personal guarantees then i am in default and in breach of contract. I will let the whole tower of cards come crashing down before i risk my family home.

 

I have never missed a single loan payment yet have never been in breach of either the loan or the rate swap. I am currently taking legal advice to see what can be done.

 

I feel that the bank is out to get me. May simply be coincidence, but since i rocked the boat they have breathing down my neck. I will let you know how things pan out.

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Google case BGH, XI ZR 33/10.

 

Would seem a precedent may have been set!!!

 

Anybody shed any more light on this ruling. The products discussed sounds similar in every respect to what we have been sold in UK.

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  • 1 month later...

Update on my October 2010 posting on this thread.

 

Appealed FO decision, again FO find in favour of bank. Found a solicitor. Nothing heard from bank re payment of overdraft (I was beside myself with worry as to what the final amount due would be with interest added) so solicitor contacted the bank and a meeting arranged.

 

Meeting seemed to be a total waste of time, bank not moving on anything, repeating constantly that the FO found in their favour. Meeting ended abruptly as there seemed no point to it and bank informed that we would be taking the matter to court.

 

A week later solicitor receives a phone call from bank rep saying he would contact by a certain date with optons (??). He never gets back to the solicitor but I receive a phone call from the bank saying that they had decided to write off the outstanding overdraft and take no further action. I ask for this in writing as I really can't believe what I am hearing...... I now have it in writing, there are certain conditions of course re not taking further action which is acceptable.

 

Three years of hell, and it's now over. I hope it cheers you up - it seems they will push you to the limit - so be strong and never give up. I am still in total shock.

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Hi Ennill,

 

Thanks for the update.

 

This is a very encouraging outcome for those who are tied into these bank products.

 

:wink:

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The Deutsche Bank ruling is indeed good news, it is probably the first time a European Court has ruled against a Bank.

 

I dont know if Deutsche Bank have appealed, probably not as they were a small player and their losses are sustainable.

 

To date, I still havent heard of a single FO decision going against a bank, I've spoked to solicitors and some of the emerging 'experts' who promise to fight for sufferers (at a cost...).

 

I know of one sufferer who has engaged sols. and it has taken best part of 2 years to get virtually nowhere.

 

Sorry to hear things are getting worse Barnsley, they really are evil EDITS.

 

A2G

Edited by slick132
Please refrain from swearing, thanks
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  • 1 month later...

Am I right in thinking that a post has been deleted - it looks like 42man is talking to me......

 

The FOS is a waste of time in relation to Rate Swaps, they view them as commercial deals by two equal parties, that will remain the case until a court case overturns the situation. So what we need is a single succesful court decision.

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier, I would love to hear from anyone who has had a mis-selling complaint upheld by the FOS.

 

A2G

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HI All2,

 

Yes, some posts from a law firm were removed as they included contact details without the permission of Site Admin.

 

:-)

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Hi All

 

Been reading with interest as we have a delightful SWAP with Lloyds whom we've been with for nearly 40 years.

 

Our main issue was the fact that they agreed to half our borrowing margin (in writing!!) when we signed our 1st SWAP, then when things get tough for them our margin is now back to where it was originally, all loans are now capital and interest, whilst we have to pay thousands out per month for the SWAP!!

 

Anyway we are waiting to hear back from our solicitors following a meeting with counsel yesterday. Its probably no surprise to add that most of the SWAPS were generally badly explained, unsuitable, used words such as recommendations etc etc but apparently its not easy to do much about that as we all have to sign the Treasury Master Agreement which absolves them of most things! We are a small family owned property co. EDIT

 

Anyway will post again when we get feedback from counsel

Edited by caro
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Hello All,

 

Thought might be worth adding my thoughts on this topic, I am a ex Barclays Capital employee and worked in Interbank Derivatives Legal Documentation and have moved into Structured Derivatives trading now with a investment management firm I might be able to help shed some light on this or at least help and explain some of your 'rights' which maybe of use / interest.

 

But before that, I would say its a little ridiculous that Barclays Retail / Commercial would assist cross selling derivatives (albeit a vanilla product) without doing full due diligence and profiling of risk. Will point out some following ISDA facts for you to troll through if you feel like.

 

1. By ISDA provisions you (the buyer) of the swap are entitled to a full long form ISDA confirmation, and have the right to disagree / amend terms within that legally binding document.

2. If the swap is entered under your business name you have right to early termination (a early termination fee would be eligible)

3. You might want to ensure Barcap are discounting at OIS as opposed to LIBOR as OIS is the industry standard now for working out discount factors on cashflows and is a fairer comparison to the actual value of the trade as opposed to LIBOR calculations.

4. Might be worth finding out how the transaction is structured, if Barclays commercial enter the transaction on your behalf (meaning barclays commercial are the counterparty and not you / your business) it raises a lot of technicalities from a claim / complaint process

 

One key thing to note as these appear to be tied in with loans, the actual swap carries very minimal risk as with a typical (fixed for floating swap) the so called principal is not realised cash, but is only used as a basis of merely calculating the interest payments

Additionally in most cases at the fixing points, the cashflows are usually netted together and the difference is the actual and only transaction that takes place which from a banks perspective creates less risk on the traders books.

 

a small caveat to the termination fee, essentially if the swap remains until maturity you will have no further cashflows resulting in the trade having a realised value of '0' effectively. If you terminate early the price at current market value on cancellation point will have to be exchanged.

 

If you have further questions or interested in scenario examples, I am happy to plough through my bloomberg terminal and pull off any data that maybe of use to you. Not sure if this is helpful or I am just waffling, its late and my brain is half shut down so forgive me. :sleep:

 

Thanks.

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Thanks for your input.

 

Its pretty much one of two issues that folks are complaining about,

 

Firstly (and this is the most common), cost to break the swap. A swap is fixed at 5% to 6%, based on the base rate. With the base rate currently 0.5%, the cost to break is also virtually 5% to 6%, over the length of the remaining period. Its a bit like trying to pay off a loan, and being asked to pay all of the remaining payments up front in order to exit the debt. This comes as a big surprise to the vast majority, which tells me that the banks dont highlight it enough, and that the banks are targeting small businesses who are naive in these matters - then hiding behind the very due-diligence you mention.

 

Secondly (less common, but seen a lot more this last year), banks are reviewing the loan to value ratio by adding outstanding loan and then potential breakage cost together (even if no break is being sought), and increasing fees, putting business into hands of 'recovery units' etc etc.

 

I note your thoughts on ISDA agreements, and agree that is what people are entitled to expect, but it isnt what has happened - in addition, where a counterparty (ie us, not the bank), requests a break, the banks are refusing, even when the ISDA agreement says they MUST break ie prepayments and counterpaty confirms a break is required. The FOS arent interested, its a commercial deal between two businesses, regardless of how large one is or small the other is.

 

In relation to due diligence and risk profiling, I have copies of the forms issued by the main player in these - an example to whet your appetite.........in a partnership, both partners required to sign according to bank rate swap paperwork, but only one does, second refuses pointblank and explains they do not understand the product and dont want it.

 

Bank carry out the swap, regardless of second partners wish not to (in interview the bank salesman even states they accept that the second partner did not understand or want the product.)

 

The FOS decision in relation to an unauthorised swap.......despite the bank failing to carry out a proper due diligence in relation to the unsigned authorisation, the partnerships normal cheque mandate only required one signature, so the bank did nothing wrong in accepting one signature in relation to the swap.

 

I've got loads of other examples, not just people caught out by the drop to 0.5% in base rates, but situations where the banks have used old-school boilerhouse selling techniques....all made possible, if not ethical, by the 2005 changes to the Act covering these products.

 

What I would like to find is a case of a private individual being sold one of these on a non-commercial basis, ie to support a domestic mortgage or similar, but thats what the banks due diligence is there for, to protect the bank from such a mis-selling complaint (no 'equal-party' status in that scenario!).

 

Dont be disheartened by my reply, its pleasant to have someone posting who isnt trying to sell a service (there are plenty of ex-bank folks about who suggest they might have the answer, for only a small fee......or solicitors who suggest that thay have mysteriously 'negotiated' a way out of the problem), we can never have too many people with inside knowledge, so welcome aboard our happy little ship!

 

Regards

 

A2G

Edited by all2lgain
Its been a long day....
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Link to the Sky News story here - http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16058908

 

It's suggested that Rate Swaps could be bigger for the banks than PPI !

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I also saw the article - bit concerned as they mention investment professionals (these were included in the 2001 Act but this protection seemed to disappear with the 2005 Act).

 

Go back a couple of years - Barclays bucked the trend and posted multi billion profits - this was their windfall from selling swaps.

 

Madmountainman.....xelo means bank base rate (as published monthly) as opposed to Libor rate.

 

We need a precedent at court to start the avalanche (FOS will not support us, although interestingly in the sky news article HSBC say 'very few' complaints upheld by FOS.....i wasnt aware of any at all, hmmm wonder what the details of those are?)

 

Cheers

 

all2lgain

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I'd like to add something in relation to due diligence.

 

the banks have to complete and 'Advice of Compliance' form in order to proceed with the swap.....for this they MUST have two things, firstly a signed FSA Risk Warning Notice signed by the counterparty (us!), and also a signed Bank Mandate.

 

The FSA Risk warning notice states that all counterparties should sign....but if the bank mandate says only one signature is needed, then the fos accept that as overiding the FSA Risk notice.

 

Paperwork is the crucial thing here - if you dont have either of the above, ask the bank to supply you copies to prove you signed them. Chances are they will do this without a data protection notice.

 

Cheers

 

A2G

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Ps If anyone has a link to the 2005 FSMAct I'd appreciate it, cant find anything other than the 2001 Act, which isnt relevant.

 

Cheers

 

A2G

 

Okay, ignore above, here it is......http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1529/contents/made

 

Now just need to read it.

Edited by all2lgain
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I had a booming business a year or so ago. I entered into a swap in 2007, since then the bank have revalued my properties, offered a partnership deal and eventually took them all away and sold them at an auction, and still want more money! I have just taken them to court. Will keep you posted.JC

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Pete,

I read with interest some of your comments with interest.I have been moaning to RBS since 2009about the whole messy business and currently intend to do the FOS thing via a lawyer who has won several cases there,I might simulaneously go the much longer legal route which takes much longer nut of course there will be caselaw by the time it arrives in court.

I wondered if I might ask you for any update of the overall postion with these things and how folks are getting on with their battles and also wheter I might join an action / class action group perhaps.

Best wishes and thanks for any guidance James

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Hi All

 

Whilst I accept that the FOS do not uphold every case I believe there have been at least three upholds this year.

 

Please bear in mind that the FOS was set up by statute (FSMA) and has a statutory obligation to consider the merits of a case against:

 

FSA Principles

FSA Rules (in this case COB or COBS)

What is fair and reasonable

 

I would bear that in mind the last point when framing a complaint to the FOS.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Guy & Girls

I am new to this site and came across it whilst I was doing some research into my problem

I have a structured collar with Barclays Capital can I just ask if someone can confirm this is what you are all talking about first as I think I may have some news that would interest you

Anon a Barclays Capital customer/mug

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Hi Guy & Girls

I am new to this site and came across it whilst I was doing some research into my problem

I have a structured collar with Barclays Capital can I just ask if someone can confirm this is what you are all talking about first as I think I may have some news that would interest you

Anon a Barclays Capital customer/mug

 

Yep - this is your thread! I understand that barclays sold circa 50,000 of these products - tell us more.....

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cardinals i tried to send this to you as a private message but they say as i am new i cannot send it to you have checked it and i am happy to post it openly but we all need to be VERY careful Barclays are not takeing this laying down and they will stamp on any one that threatens them have no mistake about it

Hi not sure how this all works as I am new to the site I am a bar cap customer that is currently exposed at about 800k GBP I am dealing with 5 Colonnade at Canary Wharf and at full legal stage I was going to try FOS but clearly this is not going to work reading the other individuals what I am looking to do is to go legal

I am very concerned about Barclays ability to make it difficult for anyone that oversteps the mark I have already been sent to there ICU unit but they have returned me to branch a year latter although they tried to make my life very difficult

I am paying the Hedge and all loans in my personal name and I have sufficient assets at this time for it not to be an issue I also do not trade with Barclays only borrow so they have no ability to screw me on my trading accounts

I have today been to see RBS my principle bankers and raised significant funds to pursue the matter through the courts what I think however is if there was a small consortium that grouped together we could get Barclays to settle at the courts door step which is what they seem to have done in the past

I do not want to go into to much detail as I am conscious and mindful of there power and I know they will try to take any individual out that takes it to far but if there was say 20 individual accomplished business individuals that got together I think we could take them on and win

In point of fact I am certain

So what I am not sure of is how we all communicate through here I have set up a generic email address which I sent this from

Just to be clear I am serious I have assets at £9m borrowings on them at £4m and business turnover around £2.8m but they are I think too big for me on my own if we got together and put a “0” on the end of those numbers and went heavy with legal’s between us all they would fold

As I said earlier I want to be careful as I am not sure how this all works but I do have a sound plan

Anon Bar Cap Customer

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Can anyone explain how we communicate privately on this site I do not wish to break any site rules and the forum is great but these matters should I would think be able to be discussed privately between users with the same issues I just cannot see how you do it

Makes me look a bit stupid I suppose ??!!

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Hi AnonBarCap and welcome to CAG

 

We encourage comms to be on visible forums for many reasons.

 

Off-thread, they are of no use to others who are seeking help.

 

So please continue to share your problem with others who are subscribed to this thread.

 

Thanks, Slick :-)

We could do with some help from you

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