I believe I may have been screwed over by a HCEO

[ncf355]

Firstly,

 

let me state that I am a time served member of CAG and have been involved in many court actions (at a county court level) and until yesterday believed myself well educated in what can and cannot be done by a person acting for a court

 

I say until yesterday................

 

I had a claim issued against my Ltd Co for vehicle lease fees, I subsequently lost the claim and judgment favoured them to the tune of around £1050

 

I contacted the claimant and we agreed settlement via 5 payments

 

I was to have set up a standing order but had issues with this, so contacted them with debit card details to make payment, which they agreed to

 

I heard nothing further from them, and then contacted them again for the second payment and giving them authorisation to take payment as before

 

Unbeknown to me (I have a lot of transactions going through the account and regret I did not check), they had not taken payment on either occasion

 

Anyway, shortly after I sent the second payment auth through, they obviously contacted a Sherrif enforcement co, who duly applied to a high court and obtained a writ (writ dated June 27th)

 

Cue a call yesterday from my extremely distressed wife - sheriff at my home (ltd co registered address) and has clamped her car and my mothers car (they had literally just pulled up in my mums car)

 

Despite stating the car was ppersonal and had been bough many years prior to the company formation, he would not remove the clamp

 

The only way he removed the clamp from my mothers car was by the chance that my step father had the bill of sale

 

I heard all this by phone, but work some 2 hours away, so had to get in the car and come home (obviously, as a CAG'er I wanted to see this guys iD and court writ in person)

 

When I got there I had the impression he was fake so told him to do what he liked and we'd go to the pub, but he carried on a very forceful, condescending attitude (I live in a small road, my entire road witnessed all of this, a few of them (friends) even had the misfortune to speak with him

 

Anyway, he proceeded to climb into my garden (over a high fence) and then stated he would stay there until the police arrived - this obviously made me realise he wasnt messing around

 

I had already made offers of part payment which he refused, I tried again but he just said he would take the car and other possesions

 

So, with assistance from friend and family I paid his total:

 

£2,100+!!!!

 

(remember, original debt £1050, also remember the claimant had agreed payment but failed to take it)

 

So, £1k down, a completely distraught wife (who now feels unsafe in her own home) and a whole street knowing we had a debt

 

I'm very, very angry at this treatment

 

I dont have the figures to hand at the moment (had it all on paper) but will post this tmw

 

From memory, the charges made were as follows:

 

£50 issue fee

£430 sherrifs fee

Around £390 (3 hours at £130/hr) waiting time charge

Plus VAT and i think something else I have forgotten

 

They have been paid so the worst part is over, so......

 

a) can I now sue the original claimant via vicarious liablity for both the amount and harassment/damge to reputation?

 

b) Do the fees above sound right or have I been screwed?

 

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance

[tomtubby]

Which company is this ? If you don't wish to put the name on the open forum then please PM.

 

Sadly, their tactic worked......you ended up paying the debt !!! and this is WHY bailiffs are acting so discracefully because they KNOW that with the recession it is so difficult to get payment at the door.

 

The fees that they can charge are laid down by Parliament BUT part of the fee scale provides for "reasonable fees" for attending and it is this clause that is open to abuse.

 

PS: If the HCEO had clamped 2 vehicles not owned by you then he MUST provide a Notice of Seizure of Goods & Inventory. Was this provided?

[ncf355]

Hi,

 

sorry that its taken so long for me to respond, your reply is really appreciated

 

The 2 vehicles clamped did NOT have a notice of seizure of goods and inventory provided

 

I am going to be away for the weekend in about an hours time, but I've now managed to scan all the paperwork

 

On closer inspection I believe the "high court writ" is their own paperwork made to look more official than it is

 

Not managed to contact Cryodon high court yet to check the validity of the writ itself, but will be chasing this

 

 

Heres the paperwork, but also here is a roundup of figures:

 

Judgment debt was actually £1150 and despite the payment agreement made with the Claimant, no payment was taken so the Judgment debt stated on the paperwork as £1010.39 is odd for starters

 

Given they have wrongly stated the debt (albeit understated!) does this cause them any issues?

 

Judgment costs: £140 - correct figure for a high court judgment?

 

Execution costs: £50 - if the judgment fee was £140, whats this for?

 

Sheriffs fees: £431.17 - this really gets me - is this a lawful charge?

 

VAT: £64.68 - OK I S'pose

 

Waiting time: £120/hr x 3 hours + 15% VAT = £414 - again, lawful? I would hardly see a court upholding £120 hour for being sat in a van as lawful?

[ncf355]

Scans:

"High court writ"?

 

Main Bill with waiting time

 

 

 

Levy Page 1

 

Levy Page 2 - NOTE: appear to be missing a page, deeply suspicous about whats on that page!

 

Receipt for payment and business card of Sheriff's Office (guy said he actually "represented" the Sheriff's Officer?

 

 

 

Welcome all comments on this

 

As said before I feel inclined to go down the avenue of action against the original claimaint due to them accepting payment terms but proceeding with High Court without attempting to take the payments

Edited July 4, 2009 by ncf355

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The law doesnt provide for bailiffs to charge waiting time. His fee of £120+VAT per hour waiting time is a higher hourly rate than an airline pilot holding the rank of captain working on a premium long-haul airline Airline Pilot Central - Emirates | International therefore his costs are not reasonable. He has not paid any disbursements by sitting in his van outside your property.

 

You can either ask for a detailed assessment: More: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex345.pdf

 

Or you can file a claim in the small claims track and recover the fees.

 

The law proviodes for reasobale costs burt the bailiff has not given a breakdown of his fees so he cannot claim his fees are reasonable. Cullinghan vs. marston Group Ltd. More: London Motorists Action Group - Detailed assesment of Marstons Bailiff - National implications This same case also rules bailiffs cannot charge a fee as reasonable costs for fixing or removing a wheel-clamp to a vehicle.

 

Did you pay with a credit card, if do you can do claim a chargeback with your bank under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for breach of contract.

 

There is no such thing as 'sherriffs' fees. Croydon is not in Scotland.

 

The law prescribing HCEO fees for collecting unpaid writs (not County Court Judgements) is Regulation 13 & Schedule 3 of The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004. Broadly speaking it provides:

 

Where the sum due is £100 or less - 5%

 

Above £100 - 2.5%

 

Mileage Charges - 29.2p per mile Max £50

 

Seizure of goods - £2 per site

 

Walking possession fee. £3.25 a day

 

Transport and storage of removed goods "Reasonable costs" Not for gain - See Cullighan vs Marston (bailiffs) Group Ltd. It's probably nil.

 

Valuation of goods - "Reasonable costs" - must be actual disbursements, not for gain.

 

Sale of goods by auction Up to £100 - 15%

Next £900 - 12.5%

Above £1000 - 10%

[ncf355]

This sounds good

 

My plan is to take the original Climant to small claims as they should not have instructed them in the first place as they had agreed to a payment plan but failed to take payments from valid card details (and I can prove the funds were available at the time of due payment)

 

I also plan on suing the original claimant for harassment and general damages to business reputation as I consider them vicariously liable

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Remember it was the HCEO that is charging unlawful fees.

 

The claimant was sold an expensive transfer-up service by the HCEO firm. Transferring up from the county court does not benefit the claimant, only the bailiff because it enables him to charge higher fees than he otherwise would if he was collecting a county court Judgement (currently £45).

 

If in doubt, name the HCEO and the claimant as joint defendants and keep us posted with your progress.

[ncf355]

Thanks

[ncf355]

Erm.............

 

Checked about and there is no high court in Croydon?

 

The Claim number they quote even has a "CR" designation?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Its a county court and it was transferred up. The claim must have originated at Croydon.

[ncf355]

Nope

 

Original claim was Poole, with PH designation, buttheyquote a "CR" as Croydon high court ref on the first scanned doc above - "high court writ"

 

The stamp on it is obviously designed to make it look like a court document, but that stamp is their own creation NOT a court stamp

 

Is there something here along the fraud lines -

 

falsely representing themselves as having high authority, or something similar?

[hallowitch]

if you goggle THE DIRECTORY OF HIGH COURT ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS

 

it gives you a directory of all high court enforcement officers this was published last month

VERSION 12: PUBLISHED JUNE 2009

[ncf355]

Hmmm

 

Listed on the "Writ" as Peter Noble Watt, yet cant find this person in the list?

[hallowitch]

thats why i posted it because i couldn't see his name either

[Guest Happy Contrails]

 

falsely representing themselves as having high authority, or something similar?

 

If you are right its Section 2 of the Fraud Act.

 

Yhis may not be HCEO's at all, you could be dealing with common fraudsters involved in organised crime. I suggest you contact police who can ask the Organised Crime Unit to make some enquiries.

[hallowitch]

his name is on page 91

[ncf355]

This is unreal, after the amount of court action I've seen I feel a right mug

[ncf355]

How do I check the existence of the high court claim number?

[hallowitch]

Levy Page 2 - NOTE: appear to be missing a page, deeply suspicious about whats on that page!

this should have the list of goods that they have levied against i think

 

no 11) the goods seized are all those referred to at 2 but in case there is any doubt the following items are included in the seizure

 

all goods on property to satisfy the Dept

[ncf355]

Also, does the person visting actually have to be a HCEO, or can they be an individual representing him?

[brownefamily]

There are elements here that suggest an HCEO has been involved - the Notice of Seizure is correct (the wording is statutory - Form No 55 I think) - the bit about "all goods on property.." that they have added is in the correct place although if they didn't gain entry, they couldn't actually seize anything. They could seize cars, however and it is the responsibility of the debtor to show they do not belong to him although, at the same time, they should not clamp everything in sight and leave themselves open to the real owner taking action against them (they should check on vehicle ownership before seizure).

HCEOs rarely act for themselves (so you will not find the person who called on you on the list) but can instruct anyone to act for them and usually use bailiffs or private detectives. Those people have the powers of the HCEO if acting for them

The £120 per hour is high (as does the Sherriffs fee which looks too high to be poundage) and could be queried at a detailed fees assessment but there are lots of bits here that are OK. Certainly don't think he wasn't genuine and that his paperwork wasn't genuine; I would say it was.

There are just parts in there that he's been heavy-handed with or been extreme about. If you're trading from home, he can't force entry and take anything. The vehicle clamping would be considered 'extreme' but he might still get away with it.

I would write to the HCEO, complaining about the clamping (with no noitice of seizure or evidence of a vehicle ownership check being done) asking for an explanaion of his fees and under what parts of the regulations these have been charged (eg the £120 per hour fee) the drawing attention from your neighbours (they are meant to be discrete) and see what results. You could complain to their Association and possibly get a detailed fees assessment but I would think only the £120 an hour would be in question and they could probably justify half that, so you'd get something back but....

I don't think you'll have much luck going after the original creditor. He didn't get a penny from you (you would have been better sending him a cheque by recorded delivery) so would probably successfully argue he had to take further action. Unless you have a written agreement, I doubt you'd get anywhere and if you didn't actually pay a penny, I doubt you'll have much of a chance...

Get a breakdown of fees and complain about the aggressive behaviour of the Officer who called...

[ploddertom]

Hi

 

The first page is totally different to the the one I received stamped Supreme Court of England and Wales Action Department Central Office, does this mean there is no standard format for these writs ?

 

pt

[danboy581]

Hi,

 

Yes as far as i know the HCEO, as in this case is Peter Noble Watt of

46, Dulverton Road, Abington Vale, Northampton, NN3 3AZ can authorise anyone he sees fit to carry out the dirty work only in the districts (postcode areas) that he has been authorised to work in.

 

That Rob guy gets around - have heard of him before - a complete idiot.

 

This firm is a ltd private firm that picks up high court judgements and collects the cash

 

The fees you were charged are extreme and outrageous...

 

but not as much as they have just charged me! £600 judgement - £2400 final bill.

 

Get a solicitor on it with a fixed fee if poss.

[danboy581]

Also, fees that HCEO's can charge are listed in The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004.

 

The reason they work the way they do is because they are on commision from their boss. (in this case Peter Watt)

 

i.e a balliff seeking payment on a county court debt will only get paid a set fee. He gets this for just visiting a premises, (think its about 50 -60 quid- whether he collects or not, and gets paid i think by the court.

 

This Rob Marshall meat head is only paid if he collects the cash. The 'high court' stamp on ncf355's paperwork is bull, just made up to look more official and frightening.

[casbah]

Hi,

 

 

Get a solicitor on it with a fixed fee if poss.

 

 

Does one actually exist????

I know there are for accidents and bank charges but for litigation cases???

I know I could win my court case, but can't word it correctly so the Judge won't consider it. And boy!!! am I in the stum