Hpi check states Category C.....

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Philip43!

 

So to clarify, the categorisation used for disposal of damaged cars, by the insurance industry, ie, A, B, C, D, is for industry guidance only.

If you can take a look at my Post #14 above, the real spanner in this is not the ABI code, but the Environmental Protection Act 1991 (EPA) and the Duty of Care that imposes.

 

So, take great care.

 

The fines for handling Controlled Waste are onerous, not just for you, but for everyone in the chain. The person who sold it to you needed to have suitable EPA Certification just to handle and store the Controlled Waste - which is what Category A and B Cars become once an Insurance Engineer has declared the damage or contamination to be so great that repairs are neither safe nor cost effective.

 

The Car ceases to be a Car, and becomes Controlled Waste at that point. So, technically, you have not actually bought a Car, but a collection of Controlled Waste all bolted together! To get it re-classified, you are, in effect, trying to get Controlled Waste turned back into a Car! It can be done, in some circumstances, but do read on...

 

When the Category B Vehicle was handed over to you, the vendor had a Duty of Care to ensure he/she was passing the Controlled Waste over to someone who also possessed the necessary EPA Certification. To ensure compliance and to avoid a FAT FINE, a Waste Transfer Note should be issued, logged by the Vendor in keeping with their EPA Licence, and also logged by you, in keeping with your EPA Licence...

 

...er, but you don't have one of those, do you? !

 

Danger Will Robinson!

 

If you then move the Controlled Waste, then you need a Waste Carriers Licence too...

 

...er, but you don't have one of those either, do you? !

 

Danger Will Robinson x2!

 

You may see the fines building up? And they can be huge, really eye watering.

 

However, the good news is that I am aware that some Cat B Vehicles are sometimes re-Categorised to C/D, and it's nearly always Flood Damaged examples where the original Cat B Categorisation was too harsh.

 

The acid test is often contamination, such as sewerage. The Engineer has a gizmo that he/she can stick into, say, the seat padding, to read the level of poop contamination. If it's above a certain level measured on some scale of micro-poops, then it's unsafe for further use. There is no getting around that if so.

 

However, if it was fresh water, then it may well have been safe to declare it a C/D, but the Engineer didn't bother to check for poop...

 

...although the hidden issues can be onerous: ECU and Relay problems, water in Engine and Gearbox etc. The problems may take a while to appear. Remember that you cannot compress a liquid, so if any water got into the bores and the engine was still running, or someone tried to start the engine when still Water Flooded, then then the effect can be catastrophic. The Engine goes - what is referred to as - Hydraulic, and can damage and bend Con Rods and cause major mechanical stress.

 

If the engine is lumpy, beware...that sort of thing can even blow a Con Rod out of the side of the Engine Block depending on the stress caused. It's best to get to the Car as soon as possible after the Flood, to see the extent of the damage. Is the Air Filter wet for example, suggesting Water was sucked up the inlet plumbing? Is it wet on both sides or just the Air side rather than the Engine side etc. If all of this happened in 2006, such tell-tales will be long dried up and gone.

 

Watch out also for smells, because Carpets are usually rubber backed, and that tends to trap water between Carpet and Floor Pan. The only way to get that out is to strip out the whole lower interior, and all Carpets, allow to dry 100% before re-fitting...otherwise the Car can start to smell like a bog after a while!

 

So, yes, it can be done, but watch out for the EPA Fines. Indeed, I think imprisonment is an option, so the EPA Duty of Care aspect is the main issue. Get on the wrong side of that, and you are in a world of financial hurt.

 

What has it been doing between 2006 and 2010? Remember that Cars do not like to sit around, things tend to seize up...brakes and clutch mechanisms for example.

 

Finally, hmeah asked this:

 

I have seen a car, the dealer said it was CAT D - no damage, just stolen & then recovered, how can i find out if this is true? should i ask for any documents etc, i have not gone to see him yet, just had a conversation over the phone, will see him soon if i get the answers I am looking for from here..

Sadly, Category D does not mean Stolen Recovered or easy repair, so this could be a story. Category D just means that the Cost of Repair did not exceed the Pre-Accident Value.

 

A 2010 Ferrari wrapped around a Tree could be D if the £75,000 Repairs are less than the £110,000 value. Likewise, a 1995 VW Golf MK3 may be C if the stolen alloy wheels and tyres cost £450 to replace when the Car's value was £440.

 

To remind you:

 

================

CONTROLLED WASTE:

Cat A - CRUSH

Cat B - Dismantle

================

Repairable Vehicles:

Cat C - Repair (Repair Cost > Pre-Accident Value)

Cat D - Repair (Repair Cost

================

Cat-Invisible - Insurance Repaired Cars!

================

 

Cars that are stolen and recovered without damage are not usually recorded, so a Category D rating may suggest some damage, say, wing mirrors knocked off, or broken glass or worse.

 

However, there are many Cars stolen and recovered intact, because many are stolen with the Keys. That's because thieves now tend to break-in to houses to get the Keys because Cars are getting much harder to Hot Wire these days...it's altogether easier for a thief to steal the Keys first!

 

Some are not recovered for a while, by which time the Insurance Company has paid out, so it's theirs to Sell On in effect.

 

Just take care, and preferably take someone who is familiar with Cars and/or get an inspection by the AA/RAC or a qualified Motor Engineer. There should be many in the Yellow Pages for example, who may not charge that much to inspect the Car for you.

 

There's not much you can ask for. The Dealer will not have any idea of what really happened, unless he/she bought it direct and was the first to handle it post Insurance Sale. Indeed, you could ask how he/she knows if it was Stolen/Recovered and what, if any, the damage was? That could be interesting!

 

The Dealer may have taken an educated guess, i.e. he/she ran an HPI Check, which may have shown Category D on 01/06/2010, and a Theft Marker not yet cleared down dated 20/05/2010. It would be reasonable to think that it was Stolen, then Recovered, then offered for Sale. But it's a bit quick, so why was it offered for sale so soon? Likewise, if the dates were 01/06/2009 and 20/05/2009 respectively, then what happened to it between June 2009 and July 2010?

 

It may be an idea to obtain your own HPI Check to see what it says. That might well be the lowest cost gross error check, assuming the Car is otherwise worth buying from what you have seen so far.

 

It could be a bargain, or it could be a Dealer using the old Stolen/Recovered story to hide a Category D that was actually Damaged/Repaired and not Stolen/Recovered.

 

Category D usually means some Repairs were needed, whereas a straight Stolen/Recovered with no damage will usually not need to be recorded and can just be sold. These are informally called Category X, meaning no actual Category. So, if it has a Category D, you need to establish why.

 

There are bargains to be had, but get the thing checked out via an inspection if in any doubt. Same goes for most used Cars if you do not feel that you are experienced enough to be sure you can check it out yourself.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Philip43]

Hello Philip43!

 

If you can take a look at my Post #14 above, the real spanner in this is not the ABI code, but the Environmental Protection Act 1991 (EPA) and the Duty of Care that imposes.

 

So, take great care.

 

The fines for handling Controlled Waste are onerous, not just for you, but for everyone in the chain. The person who sold it to you needed to have suitable EPA Certification just to handle and store the Controlled Waste - which is what Category A and B Cars become once an Insurance Engineer has declared the damage or contamination to be so great that repairs are neither safe nor cost effective.

 

The Car ceases to be a Car, and becomes Controlled Waste at that point. So, technically, you have not actually bought a Car, but a collection of Controlled Waste all bolted together! To get it re-classified, you are, in effect, trying to get Controlled Waste turned back into a Car! It can be done, in some circumstances, but do read on...

 

When the Category B Vehicle was handed over to you, the vendor had a Duty of Care to ensure he/she was passing the Controlled Waste over to someone who also possessed the necessary EPA Certification. To ensure compliance and to avoid a FAT FINE, a Waste Transfer Note should be issued, logged by the Vendor in keeping with their EPA Licence, and also logged by you, in keeping with your EPA Licence...

 

...er, but you don't have one of those, do you? !

 

Danger Will Robinson!

 

If you then move the Controlled Waste, then you need a Waste Carriers Licence too...

 

...er, but you don't have one of those either, do you? !

 

Danger Will Robinson x2!

 

You may see the fines building up? And they can be huge, really eye watering.

 

However, the good news is that I am aware that some Cat B Vehicles are sometimes re-Categorised to C/D, and it's nearly always Flood Damaged examples where the original Cat B Categorisation was too harsh.

 

The acid test is often contamination, such as sewerage. The Engineer has a gizmo that he/she can stick into, say, the seat padding, to read the level of poop contamination. If it's above a certain level measured on some scale of micro-poops, then it's unsafe for further use. There is no getting around that if so.

 

However, if it was fresh water, then it may well have been safe to declare it a C/D, but the Engineer didn't bother to check for poop...

 

...although the hidden issues can be onerous: ECU and Relay problems, water in Engine and Gearbox etc. The problems may take a while to appear. Remember that you cannot compress a liquid, so if any water got into the bores and the engine was still running, or someone tried to start the engine when still Water Flooded, then then the effect can be catastrophic. The Engine goes - what is referred to as - Hydraulic, and can damage and bend Con Rods and cause major mechanical stress.

 

If the engine is lumpy, beware...that sort of thing can even blow a Con Rod out of the side of the Engine Block depending on the stress caused. It's best to get to the Car as soon as possible after the Flood, to see the extent of the damage. Is the Air Filter wet for example, suggesting Water was sucked up the inlet plumbing? Is it wet on both sides or just the Air side rather than the Engine side etc. If all of this happened in 2006, such tell-tales will be long dried up and gone.

 

Watch out also for smells, because Carpets are usually rubber backed, and that tends to trap water between Carpet and Floor Pan. The only way to get that out is to strip out the whole lower interior, and all Carpets, allow to dry 100% before re-fitting...otherwise the Car can start to smell like a bog after a while!

 

So, yes, it can be done, but watch out for the EPA Fines. Indeed, I think imprisonment is an option, so the EPA Duty of Care aspect is the main issue. Get on the wrong side of that, and you are in a world of financial hurt.

 

What has it been doing between 2006 and 2010? Remember that Cars do not like to sit around, things tend to seize up...brakes and clutch mechanisms for example.

 

Finally, hmeah asked this:

 

Sadly, Category D does not mean Stolen Recovered or easy repair, so this could be a story. Category D just means that the Cost of Repair did not exceed the Pre-Accident Value.

 

A 2010 Ferrari wrapped around a Tree could be D if the £75,000 Repairs are less than the £110,000 value. Likewise, a 1995 VW Golf MK3 may be C if the stolen alloy wheels and tyres cost £450 to replace when the Car's value was £440.

 

To remind you:

 

================

CONTROLLED WASTE:

Cat A - CRUSH

Cat B - Dismantle

================

Repairable Vehicles:

Cat C - Repair (Repair Cost > Pre-Accident Value)

Cat D - Repair (Repair Cost

================

Cat-Invisible - Insurance Repaired Cars!

================

 

Cars that are stolen and recovered without damage are not usually recorded, so a Category D rating may suggest some damage, say, wing mirrors knocked off, or broken glass or worse.

 

However, there are many Cars stolen and recovered intact, because many are stolen with the Keys. That's because thieves now tend to break-in to houses to get the Keys because Cars are getting much harder to Hot Wire these days...it's altogether easier for a thief to steal the Keys first!

 

Some are not recovered for a while, by which time the Insurance Company has paid out, so it's theirs to Sell On in effect.

 

Just take care, and preferably take someone who is familiar with Cars and/or get an inspection by the AA/RAC or a qualified Motor Engineer. There should be many in the Yellow Pages for example, who may not charge that much to inspect the Car for you.

 

There's not much you can ask for. The Dealer will not have any idea of what really happened, unless he/she bought it direct and was the first to handle it post Insurance Sale. Indeed, you could ask how he/she knows if it was Stolen/Recovered and what, if any, the damage was? That could be interesting!

 

The Dealer may have taken an educated guess, i.e. he/she ran an HPI Check, which may have shown Category D on 01/06/2010, and a Theft Marker not yet cleared down dated 20/05/2010. It would be reasonable to think that it was Stolen, then Recovered, then offered for Sale. But it's a bit quick, so why was it offered for sale so soon? Likewise, if the dates were 01/06/2009 and 20/05/2009 respectively, then what happened to it between June 2009 and July 2010?

 

It may be an idea to obtain your own HPI Check to see what it says. That might well be the lowest cost gross error check, assuming the Car is otherwise worth buying from what you have seen so far.

 

It could be a bargain, or it could be a Dealer using the old Stolen/Recovered story to hide a Category D that was actually Damaged/Repaired and not Stolen/Recovered.

 

Category D usually means some Repairs were needed, whereas a straight Stolen/Recovered with no damage will usually not need to be recorded and can just be sold. These are informally called Category X, meaning no actual Category. So, if it has a Category D, you need to establish why.

 

There are bargains to be had, but get the thing checked out via an inspection if in any doubt. Same goes for most used Cars if you do not feel that you are experienced enough to be sure you can check it out yourself.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Wow!! What a reply!! And thank you!!

 

I understand what you are saying about the controlled waste, but I think this car came from a breaker, ( not an ATF) to the person who I bought it off. It has been in his garage since 2008.

 

The DVA have this car down as needing a VIC. Now that being the case, surely there must be an argument for not breaking the car. If the car is roadworthy enough, then isn`t it more environmentally friendly to use the car, rather than breaking it up, and having to deal with all that controlled waste?

 

The car was flood damaged, as my enquiries have led me to the insurance company who paid out on the vehicle. The upholstry was damaged, and was subsequently removed. As to when, I don`t know.

I have inspected the car, and although I am not a mechanic, I do know my sucks from my squeezes, and my bangs from my blows. The car is going, ie:- driving, and all the safety functions and controls work as they should. Underneath there appears to have been a new exhaust fitted, as the rust you would expect to see on a 9 year old car is less prevalent on it, than the underbody. I do understand what happens when water enters a compression chamber, simply because water can not be compressed.

 

The chassis is intact, there is no water damage to the paint anywhere on the car, infact, on examining the car, it is clear to see that all nuts and bolts, mountings, brackets and fittings are original.

 

You say you have seen cars that were category B, reclassified to cat C? I would be interested to know how to go about that. The insurance company said that once a car has been categorised, that`s it! But I wouldn`t have expected them to say anything else!!!

 

Oh btw, what DOES it rythm with?? LOL!!

Edited July 24, 2010 by Philip43
spelling

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Philip43!

 

I understand what you are saying about the controlled waste, but I think this car came from a breaker, ( not an ATF) to the person who I bought it off. It has been in his garage since 2008.

The danger is, if the Car is a Category B, then it is Controlled Waste until recategorised.

 

This means that if the Environmental Secret Police get wind of this, then they will bang on your door, fine you for failing in your Duty of Care, demand the Waste is taken away by a suitably qualified Waste Carrier, then they will hang you up by your goolies until you tell them exactly who sold it to you...

 

...then they will bang on his door and fine him for failing in his Duty of Care, then they'll hang him up by his nipples until he tells them exactly who sold it to him...

 

...then they will bang on their door and, if a Breaker, will demand to see the Waste Transfer Note relating to the sale and hand-over of the Controlled Waste. When the breaker gets a sweat on because he knows he never issued one, then they will fine the Breaker senseless, because he failed in his Duty of Care to make sure the Controlled Waste was handled appropriately and only passed on to a suitable agent.

 

Breaker or ATF, will probably be one and the same thing.

 

So, tread carefully.

 

The DVA have this car down as needing a VIC. Now that being the case, surely there must be an argument for not breaking the car. If the car is roadworthy enough, then isn`t it more environmentally friendly to use the car, rather than breaking it up, and having to deal with all that controlled waste?

I regret they won't listen to arguments, if it's Category B, then it's Controlled Waste, and you should not have it. So...

 

OK, this is all paperwork, so it's quite possible that the Category B was a typing mistake. The fact that it is logged by VOSA as needing a VIC suggests it cannot be a Category B as far as they are concerned. It can only be a Category C on their system, because Category A and B are not vehicles but Controlled Waste so would never be marked down as needing a VIC, and Category D does not need a VIC.

 

I'd start with VOSA, and see if they can help clarify what they know. Preferably get a letter from them confirming it's a Category C as far as they are concerned.

 

Then take that information to the Insurance Company, and explain there must have been a typo, otherwise how else could VOSA have it logged as needing a VIC?

 

What ever you do, it may not be the best plan to ask the Environmental people for an opinion! That's unless you like Prison food and having no money to leave to your children!

 

You say you have seen cars that were category B, reclassified to cat C? I would be interested to know how to go about that. The insurance company said that once a car has been categorised, that`s it! But I wouldn`t have expected them to say anything else!!!

I've only heard of it carried out by Salvage/Breakers who ended up with a Category B, that they found was far too good to be so Categorised, and managed to get the Insurance Company to liaise with their Engineer to reconsider and/or re-inspect and/or correct a Typo.

 

I can't say I have heard of anyone not otherwise being in the business managing this, but that does not mean it cannot be done.

 

Your best hope would be a typing mistake when the Category was first entered, provided there is other evidence to support that.

 

But, as I say, do not lose sight of the fact that a shed load of onerous Legislation has been ignored, and that Act has some serious teeth.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Philip43]

Hello Philip43!

 

The danger is, if the Car is a Category B, then it is Controlled Waste until recategorised.

 

This means that if the Environmental Secret Police get wind of this, then they will bang on your door, fine you for failing in your Duty of Care, demand the Waste is taken away by a suitably qualified Waste Carrier, then they will hang you up by your goolies until you tell them exactly who sold it to you...

 

...then they will bang on his door and fine him for failing in his Duty of Care, then they'll hang him up by his nipples until he tells them exactly who sold it to him...

 

...then they will bang on their door and, if a Breaker, will demand to see the Waste Transfer Note relating to the sale and hand-over of the Controlled Waste. When the breaker gets a sweat on because he knows he never issued one, then they will fine the Breaker senseless, because he failed in his Duty of Care to make sure the Controlled Waste was handled appropriately and only passed on to a suitable agent.

 

Breaker or ATF, will probably be one and the same thing.

 

So, tread carefully.

 

I regret they won't listen to arguments, if it's Category B, then it's Controlled Waste, and you should not have it. So...

 

OK, this is all paperwork, so it's quite possible that the Category B was a typing mistake. The fact that it is logged by VOSA as needing a VIC suggests it cannot be a Category B as far as they are concerned. It can only be a Category C on their system, because Category A and B are not vehicles but Controlled Waste so would never be marked down as needing a VIC, and Category D does not need a VIC.

 

I'd start with VOSA, and see if they can help clarify what they know. Preferably get a letter from them confirming it's a Category C as far as they are concerned.

 

Then take that information to the Insurance Company, and explain there must have been a typo, otherwise how else could VOSA have it logged as needing a VIC?

 

What ever you do, it may not be the best plan to ask the Environmental people for an opinion! That's unless you like Prison food and having no money to leave to your children!

 

I've only heard of it carried out by Salvage/Breakers who ended up with a Category B, that they found was far too good to be so Categorised, and managed to get the Insurance Company to liaise with their Engineer to reconsider and/or re-inspect and/or correct a Typo.

 

I can't say I have heard of anyone not otherwise being in the business managing this, but that does not mean it cannot be done.

 

Your best hope would be a typing mistake when the Category was first entered, provided there is other evidence to support that.

 

But, as I say, do not lose sight of the fact that a shed load of onerous Legislation has been ignored, and that Act has some serious teeth.

 

Cheers,

BRW

I`m not disputing what you say, but it seems to raise more questions.

 

Surely the insurance company would have a lawful obligation to ensure that this category B vehicle went to an ATF.

It would not be in their interests for this matter to be publicised.

In order to avoid any adverse publicity, and the fact that the vehicle is at this time roadworthy, perhaps it was a typo after all??

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Philip43!

 

Surely the insurance company would have a lawful obligation to ensure that this category B vehicle went to an ATF.

Yes, they would indeed. They have a Duty of Care to ensure any Controlled Waste they are responsible for is handled appropriately. Thus, they will, or ought to, ensure that the damaged Vehicles awaiting Categorisation are held at a suitable location authorised to store Vehicles and also handle Controlled Waste if such is effectively created when a Category A or B rating is applied.

 

However, and this is key, they are in the clear if they take all reasonable steps.

 

When the Breaker or ATF takes over the ruin, provided it is handed over via a Waste Transfer Note, and the agent collecting or delivering it is duly authorised to handle Controlled Waste, then the Insurance Company is totally blameless once the ruin has been handed over following the correct procedure.

 

The Duty of Care issue has been satisfied, and the on-going responsibility then passes to the Breaker. The Breaker then has a Duty of Care to ensure the Controlled Waste is handled appropriately, and he/she will fail in that duty if they flog it to a punter for a Wad of Tenners to make a quick profit!

 

It would not be in their interests for this matter to be publicised.

No, not really. They are in the clear provided the Controlled Waste was sold via a Waste Transfer Note to the Breaker, and the Breaker had the necessary EPA Certification.

 

The Insurance Company can wash its hands of the matter at that point, having covered its backside.

 

In order to avoid any adverse publicity...

Again, take care, because the Insurance Company won't like being accused of doing wrong, especially if it has all of the paperwork to confirm that it acted appropriately and within the Law.

 

The group most likely to be in the poop, will be the Breaker. That appears to be the stage where the Duty of Care issue started to go out of the window.

 

...and the fact that the vehicle is at this time roadworthy...

That, I regret, is not really relevant. If the machine was declared a Category B for a valid reason in, say, 2006, then I doubt you will get that changed. For example, if the Engineer did check for poop/sewerage contamination, and did find the levels were above the safety threshold.

 

If such a report exists, then the Vehicle will stay Category B, and will remain classified as Controlled Waste.

 

...perhaps it was a typo after all??

Yes, that is your main hope. Hence why I say go to VOSA first, and see if they can provide a letter to state that they have it recorded as being a Category C and needing a VIC.

 

That might just be enough to get the Insurance Company to check again...but, as I say, if they do check and find that their Engineer did correctly assess it as being Category B, then it's also possible that VOSA will be asked to update their own system and change it to B from C.

 

Finally, it would be worth checking the HPI details, to make sure there are not two Categorisations. Many cars are damaged twice, so you need to establish just how many times, and when, this Vehicle has been Categorised.

 

It is not unheard of for a vehicle to be Categorised D a few years ago, and then C a little later. But once Categorised as B, then that should be it, because alarm bells will go off if that one reappears on another Claim.

 

That was why the Register was set up in the first place...to stop Insurance Companies from paying out on the same Claim twice.

 

They will know that Category B is bad news, so there should be no valid reason why a Category B would re-appear later subject to a further Claim...they will almost certainly instruct a loss adjuster to investigate to check for a potential fraud.

 

I'm sorry to say that Category B ruins really are off the scale, so you are going to have some problems getting that one back on the road. Not impossible, but it will be an uphill battle unless someone spots there was indeed a simple typo.

 

Another plan could be to just go with the flow. If VOSA say it needs a VIC, then book it in for a VIC! If it passes, then trot off to DVLA and submit a V62 to get a new V5C Registration Document.

 

Then sit back and pray.

 

If a nice new V5C appears a week or so later, then you are in business. The main complication could be Insurance, if they spot Category B. At that stage you can just say it is a typo and the vehicle now has passed a VIC and has a new V5C.

 

Thereafter, use it and drive it, but do keep in mind that selling it could be a problem, because the value will be low given the Category B marker.

 

The absolute key is the machine should safe. Forget the above if there is any doubt about that. Just cut your losses and put this one down to experience...a breaker will pay you something for it, and probably a lot more than the Scrap Weight of maybe £130 a ton. If it has lots of nice Parts, then you may be able to negotiate a higher figure.

 

Another option there is to do a deal with the Breaker to receive back the key Parts, and put them towards a similar Car that needs repair. That way you avoid any EPA snags, and can sleep at night knowing you took effective action once the issues were known.

 

Best of luck!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Philip43]

Hello Philip43!

 

Yes, they would indeed. They have a Duty of Care to ensure any Controlled Waste they are responsible for is handled appropriately. Thus, they will, or ought to, ensure that the damaged Vehicles awaiting Categorisation are held at a suitable location authorised to store Vehicles and also handle Controlled Waste if such is effectively created when a Category A or B rating is applied.

 

However, and this is key, they are in the clear if they take all reasonable steps.

 

When the Breaker or ATF takes over the ruin, provided it is handed over via a Waste Transfer Note, and the agent collecting or delivering it is duly authorised to handle Controlled Waste, then the Insurance Company is totally blameless once the ruin has been handed over following the correct procedure.

 

The Duty of Care issue has been satisfied, and the on-going responsibility then passes to the Breaker. The Breaker then has a Duty of Care to ensure the Controlled Waste is handled appropriately, and he/she will fail in that duty if they flog it to a punter for a Wad of Tenners to make a quick profit!

 

No, not really. They are in the clear provided the Controlled Waste was sold via a Waste Transfer Note to the Breaker, and the Breaker had the necessary EPA Certification.

 

The Insurance Company can wash its hands of the matter at that point, having covered its backside.

 

Again, take care, because the Insurance Company won't like being accused of doing wrong, especially if it has all of the paperwork to confirm that it acted appropriately and within the Law.

 

The group most likely to be in the poop, will be the Breaker. That appears to be the stage where the Duty of Care issue started to go out of the window.

 

That, I regret, is not really relevant. If the machine was declared a Category B for a valid reason in, say, 2006, then I doubt you will get that changed. For example, if the Engineer did check for poop/sewerage contamination, and did find the levels were above the safety threshold.

 

If such a report exists, then the Vehicle will stay Category B, and will remain classified as Controlled Waste.

 

Yes, that is your main hope. Hence why I say go to VOSA first, and see if they can provide a letter to state that they have it recorded as being a Category C and needing a VIC.

 

That might just be enough to get the Insurance Company to check again...but, as I say, if they do check and find that their Engineer did correctly assess it as being Category B, then it's also possible that VOSA will be asked to update their own system and change it to B from C.

 

Finally, it would be worth checking the HPI details, to make sure there are not two Categorisations. Many cars are damaged twice, so you need to establish just how many times, and when, this Vehicle has been Categorised.

 

It is not unheard of for a vehicle to be Categorised D a few years ago, and then C a little later. But once Categorised as B, then that should be it, because alarm bells will go off if that one reappears on another Claim.

 

That was why the Register was set up in the first place...to stop Insurance Companies from paying out on the same Claim twice.

 

They will know that Category B is bad news, so there should be no valid reason why a Category B would re-appear later subject to a further Claim...they will almost certainly instruct a loss adjuster to investigate to check for a potential fraud.

 

I'm sorry to say that Category B ruins really are off the scale, so you are going to have some problems getting that one back on the road. Not impossible, but it will be an uphill battle unless someone spots there was indeed a simple typo.

 

Another plan could be to just go with the flow. If VOSA say it needs a VIC, then book it in for a VIC! If it passes, then trot off to DVLA and submit a V62 to get a new V5C Registration Document.

 

Then sit back and pray.

 

If a nice new V5C appears a week or so later, then you are in business. The main complication could be Insurance, if they spot Category B. At that stage you can just say it is a typo and the vehicle now has passed a VIC and has a new V5C.

 

Thereafter, use it and drive it, but do keep in mind that selling it could be a problem, because the value will be low given the Category B marker.

 

The absolute key is the machine should safe. Forget the above if there is any doubt about that. Just cut your losses and put this one down to experience...a breaker will pay you something for it, and probably a lot more than the Scrap Weight of maybe £130 a ton. If it has lots of nice Parts, then you may be able to negotiate a higher figure.

 

Another option there is to do a deal with the Breaker to receive back the key Parts, and put them towards a similar Car that needs repair. That way you avoid any EPA snags, and can sleep at night knowing you took effective action once the issues were known.

 

Best of luck!

 

Cheers,

BRW

Update.

I contacted my insurers this morning to ask if it is possible to obtain insurance on a category B write off. They said that it would be possible, as long as the vehicle has passed a VIC test, has a current MOT where applicable, and they may require an Independant Engineers report.

 

I think the best thing is to go with the flow as you say. At the end of the day, the insurance companies are in it to serve their own interests, which is wholly understandable.

 

The ABI categorisations, (A, B, C, D, etc ) are industry guidlines only, but the DVA, who say that categories A, B, and C must pass a VIC test before being returned to the road, are the legislators.

 

I wish I could divulge more info, but I am not in a position to do so at this stage. In my opinion, this vehicle will be safe to return to the road, and I will do all that is necessary to ensure that happens.

 

I am well aware of the risks posed by dangerous vehicles being allowed on the road, and have never been upset when my vehicle fails an MOT, because I know when it passes that the vehicle is safe. So I am therefore quite happy to subject this car to any test the insurers may see fit.

 

I think it should also be remembered, that when the flood damage was sustained, this car wasn`t the only car to have suffered, so I have no doubt that the insurance assesors would have been very busy around that time. It may have been quite appealing for them to just write it off with insufficient inspection considering that they would have had quite a few vehicles to examine.

 

As it was rain water, I think the chances of it being clean would have been high, but obviously not 100%. Structurally the car does not appear to have suffered from being submerged in water, and as I said before, everything is working.

 

No doubt the MOT will verify that.

 

As for selling it on, that would not be an issue as I intend to keep the car.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Philip

[Philip43]

Update

My car has now been booked in for a VIC and an MOT on the same day. For whatever reason, the MOT is booked in first! I suggested at the time of booking that perhaps the VIC should be done first, but was told it didn`t matter. I also informed the clerk that the car was a Category B in 2006. His reply? "They all are"!!

Since my last post, I raised your points with regard to EPA with a breaker friend of mine, and his response was that that doesn`t apply. The reason for this is that the term "controlled waste" only applies when the vehicle has been broken, and refers mainly to any and all substances which would be hazardous to the environment. The point he made to me was that you cant have a category B vehicle classed as controlled waste when the category allows for parts of that vehicle to be recycled. To be honest, even from a subjective point of view, I see what he means.

My own (somewhat limited) understanding of the categorisation by the ABI is that category B vehicles would be vehicles which have suffered a level of damage to the bodyshell so as to make it impossible to return the vehicle to a safe condition using that same bodyshell. That was not the case in relation to my car. I believe, as previously stated, that this car should have been category C, uneconomical to repair.

Right now my main concern is passing the VIC.

[billie.skeggs]

i have skimmed through this thread as i would like to put my personal expeience with CAT * vheicles.

 

i regulary attend salvage auctions for cheap cars to repair and sell on

 

C being insurence write off needing vic,

D being insurence write off not needing vic,

X being stolen recoverd.

 

My current car is a 14yr old Ford escort RS2000. if i were to claim on my insurence for damaged rear bumper (approx £200 repai bill give or take) it would be classed as a CAT C due to it being finacially inviable to repair a car of such age...

 

and this has been seen many a time at salvage auctions

 

i have recently seen in what no more i can describe as a TOTALED front end XX10 fiesta, on CAT D at a recent acution..

 

i dont have in depth knowlage like banker, but i know from first hand experience from salvage auctions that insurence cos WILL catogrise an accident damaged car to suit them finacially.

 

Luckily for me my car has an agreed value with the insurer so i know in 9/10 instances will be cheaper to repair then for them pay me out..

[Philip43]

Sorry for the delay in responding to this thread.

As of todays date, I now have a Z3 which was a category B write off in 2006, back on the road. The car was VIC tested on 2nd September 2010, and failed. An appeal was lodged, and the car was retested on 2nd November 2010. After being tested, a query arose as to the correct engine number. That issue was resolved, and I was informed on the 4th November, 2010, that the car has passed the VIC. I MOT'd the car on Saturday, 6th November, 2010, (my birthday!) and I shall now apply for road tax.

 

So, I have proved that it can be done, and if I can do it, so can you!