1st credit and Lloyds TSB Platinum credit card

[hunterandthehunted]

thanks twofoot for your input,

 

whats on pages 2 and 3, i did get a copy of the T & Cs and a copy of the direct debit agreement as well.

 

you will note from the letter that ist crud says that this is an edited copy of the CCA, and once i confirm that it is my signiture they will send me a complete copy.

 

why did they not just send this in the first place? i get the feeling that by confirming that this is my signiture will be my own undoing.

 

thanks

 

hunterandthehunted

[lilly white]

AS THEY HAVE EDITED SENT YOU HAVE FAILED DO NOT SENT SIG

 

 

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Date:

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. This was signed for as delivered on the **DATE**

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE** (12+2 days after you made the initial request).

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you/your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8

 

(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'

 

(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

[babybear39]

I agree with lily.

 

Complain to TS, the OFT and your MP as 1st crud shouldn't be doing this. A section 77/78 request is a legal request and they have no right to mess you about. They've been quite happy to correspond with you at your address so should be sure about your identity.

 

They are aware that if the CCA isn't enforceable they cannot enforce the account so they're messing you about to get more information from you.

[hunterandthehunted]

thanks for all comments,

 

so is this CCA not a true copy then?, what is the differance from an edited copy and a true copy.

 

as regards to the letter, i am a bit confused as they have sent me all the things the letter has asked for,. havent they?

 

like i say i am confused..

 

regards

 

hunterandthehunted

[babybear39]

As twofoot said above, it's missing 2 pages. We need to look at those to determine whether or not it's enforceable.

[hunterandthehunted]

i think i have the 2nd page which is basically the terms and conditions but i have not got the 3rd page unless it is the direct debit agreement.

 

they have sent loads of pages from my current acount showing details of the loan payments along with some screen shots of data regarding the loan.

 

do you think i should still send the letter which lilly white has kindly posted

or ask 1st crud for the true copy of the CCA.

 

thanks

 

hunterandthehunted

[count orlok]

what are they doing with details of your current account? that sounds wrong to me, or is it defunct?

[hunterandthehunted]

what are they doing with details of your current account? that sounds wrong to me, or is it defunct?

 

 

hi count orlock,

 

i don't know, now you come to mention it, it does seems strange.

 

i guess they are proving that i had the loan as these statements show the payments etc... but it should not be any of 1st cruds business should it.

 

the account has been closed since 2004 but thats not the point is it?

perhaps this falls under the data protection act.

 

 

i am still unsure what to do next though despite all the suportive posts.

 

regards

hunterandthehunted

 

are there any experts out there what can help me with this CCA

 

regards

 

hunterandthehunted

 

bump

[pt2537]

Hi,

 

I think that your letter was a little verbose given the circumstances

 

all you needed to say was something along the lines of

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam (or if none of those fit "Dear Creature")

 

 

I note with interest that you have provided me with page one of three from a credit agreement. until such time as you provide me with pages 2 and 3 of 3 i cannot comment on the agreement and you should note that until you comply with this request you have not complied with s77(1) CCA 1974

 

i require a reply to this letter by 4pm on ( 14 days later) outlining when i can expect the complete document to be supplied. if you fail to answer this letter then i shall forward a complaint to the OFT and i shall include your communication and the purported copy of my agreement for the OFTs attention

 

I also reserve the right to forward information in this matter to the Press, Trading standards, Gareth Thomas MP and any other enforcement body i see fit

 

Regards

[hunterandthehunted]

thanks paul,

 

i think i will go with that...

 

regards

hunterandthehunted

 

dear experts,

 

should i also mention the lack of a notice of assignment.

or is the image in post 48 one?

 

regards

 

hunterandthehunted

 

bump

[babybear39]

It's an NOA.

[hunterandthehunted]

thanks babybear

[hunterandthehunted]

dear experts,

 

is this cca enforcable?

 

thanks in advance for any comments

 

 

 

bumpety bump:D

Edited December 13, 2018 by dx100uk
merge

[Pinky69]

The prescribed terms and conditions are all there but what has to be determined is - were the terms and application form all part of one document? They have sent you Terms for an upgrade. Did you already have a Lloyds card when you made this application? Now I am not a technical expert but my understanding is that the black surrounding the documents means this is a photocopy of a microfiche. A microfiche is itself a copy and they won't have kept the original document. A microfiche is not admissable in court because it's a copy and therefore hearsay evidence - they nust be able to produce the original. I would go down that route and say what you have received is a copy of a microfiche and you are entitled under the CCA 1974 to have a copy of the properly executed original agreement.

[hunterandthehunted]

interesting,

 

thanks for that pinky69, does it matter that there is no credit limit quoted as i read on on the forum that this was one of the prescribed items.

 

were the terms and application form all part of one document? They have sent you Terms for an upgrade. Did you already have a Lloyds card when you made this application?

 

no this was my only lloyds card at that time.

 

is there any template for a letter if i go with the microfiche as i won't have a clue how to respond. i have already sent them the account in dispute letter and am i entitled to keep it in dispute if i am not satisfied that the cca is infact not a true executed copy.

 

i am also getting harrassed by BLS by phone and post, the latest threat of court action even though i have explained the account is in dispute.

 

once again thanks, i did not expect that one;)

[Pinky69]

They only have to make a reference to it - as they have done - that they will set the credit limit and inform you of what it is.

[hunterandthehunted]

right im'e with ya.

 

thanks

[Pinky69]

Dear Lloyds or DCA,

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO LLOYDS GROUP OR ANY COMPANY AFFILIATED TO LLOYDS GROUP

 

Ref

 

On (Date) I requested a true copy of the executed agreement pertaining to an alleged credit card agreement with the above reference.

 

On (Date) I received a copy of a microfiched document comprising an application form and Terms for an upgraded card. I never at any time applied for a card upgrade from any bank and have no idea what this document pertains to.

 

You are in default of my request made under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a true copy of the original executed alleged credit card agreement. Until you can provide with a copy, the alleged agreement remains unenforceable and you may not take any enforcing action, including but not limited to, adding charges and interest, demanding payment, passing the account in dispute onto any 3rd party or entering any information on my credit reference reports. Any attempt to do so will cause me to take further action, including but not limited to, a formal complaint to the OFT for breaches of the Consumer credit Act 1974, the CPUTR 2008 and OFT guidelines. I will further complain to the Information Commissioner in the event of any breach of the Data Proection Act 1998.

 

I look forward to hearing from you. If there is anything about this letter you do not understand, I advise you to consult a solicitor.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Simples!

[hunterandthehunted]

thats brilliant pinky69:D

 

i will get that sent tomorrow, now do i send it to the address i sent the cca request to, or do i send it to the address where the cca came from, which is the insolvency department hove.

 

thanks pinky69

i am well happy with that and ive tipped your scales.

 

just one thing though, how the hell can you tell that the terms are for an upgrade?

[Pinky69]

The very first paragraph of the terms. If it pertains to everyone that applied, it doesn't say that - it says it is info for those applying for upgrades and that is now part of your dispute.

[Pinky69]

Sorry - I meantt to say send to Insolvency Department where you got the CCA from.

[hunterandthehunted]

great,

 

thanks for all your efforts...

[hunterandthehunted]

dear pinky69 and other experts,

 

i have just remembered that there is a possibility that i settled this card and then closed the account a few months after opening it.

 

i then re-opened it about 6 months later for which they sent me a new card ( same number ).

 

basically what i am trying to say is that i re-opened the account in july 2003 after it had been closed for several months. the agreement which they have sent me is for when the account was originaly opened in june 2002.

i read on the forums that i should have received a new agreement and set of new terms and conditions. is this correct?

 

if i was to make lloyds aware of this, would i be agreeing to the debt by my own admission?

 

should i send a SARS letter before i send the letter that pinky69 has kindly posted or is this discrepancy even relevent.

 

some advice on this is greatly needed as i idealy want to get something in the post today.

 

thanks

Edited May 15, 2009 by hunterandthehunted

[Pinky69]

That's strange. Did you reapply for the card? Usually if an account is closed they send you a new card an a new account number. Are you sure that the new card wasn't just the upgrade described in these terms? I would send for the SAR and see what they have - you send the SAR to Lloyds themselves. You don't have to admit to anything. They have asked you for payment on an account that is already in dispute so you are finding out all you can about this alleged account - that's perefectly legit.

[hunterandthehunted]

That's strange. Did you reapply for the card? Usually if an account is closed they send you a new card an a new account number. Are you sure that the new card wasn't just the upgrade described in these terms?

 

hi pinky69,

 

my mind is a bit clouded as this was some time ago, but i am as sure as i can be. i have found the actual card in question and the start date on it is july 03, now on the above cca the date states june 02. this had made me remember that something went on along the lines of what i have said.

 

i certainly did not lose it as the cards number would have been diffarant and i can certainly remember calling them and asking them if i could renew it.

 

anyway instead of waffling on, i will send the SAR today and all should be revealed.

 

thanks

 

dear experts,

 

i have had a response from the letter that pt advised,

 

the letter is the same and they have sent me the 3 pages requested.

 

what can i do now?

 

here are the scans

 

dear pinky69

 

if you get the time could you have a look at my 1st credit thread please

 

1st credit have threatened court action

 

thanks

 

any advice would be most welcome...