My wifes been made redudant on basis of her sickness record.

[Stephen154]

Hello,

my wife has been given notice of her redundancy and attended a meeting today to discuss this further.

Firstly she was told her job was at risk but when she phoned the HR manager next day she was told there was no job for her there any more.

When we looked at her scores she scored low on attendance.

shes had 7 occasions off sick in 2 years.

1 - 17 days death of her mother

2- 4 days sickness

3- 2 days when she found out i needed heart operation.

4- 2 days stomach upset when i had ct scan

5 -2 days stomach upset

6- 1 day stomach upset

7- 2 days stomach upset

I think we would all agree excessive over 2 year period. The problem i have is that they have a policy stating after 3 occasions of sickness that they would be a meeting between manager and herself to discuss this she had no meeting and they had the option of doing this twice at the end of 2007, she was told in the meeting that the company did not feel it was Necessary as she was going through difficult times but if she had had the warning she would of kept an eye on her attendance but the company deem it not Necessary they it shouldnt be included. The next point is they have a sickness scoring system in place over 1 year but decided to use one other 2 years.

The 3rd problem i have is that my wife applied to change from part time to full time in nov 2008 and was told they would look at her records including attendance to make there decisions and at that time deem acceptable since then she has not had any time off.

The next problem i have is i asked for the time period over which the Efficiencies and quality were taken which she did not know although we have quality feedback foe 8 months march through to dec 2008. She was also marked down 5 points for quality as she was spoken to once over this period, we have asked for documented proof which they cant supply but looking through her record she has 6 defective parts out of 25,000 giving her 99.7% the target for her area taken from her apparisal is 98.5% which leds to believe why would she need to be spoken to as above target and the 6 defects spread evenly over the year.

She scored highly in all areas accept her attendance but was never discipline over her attendance and is one of the most highly skilled people on that process with excellent quality and Efficiencies no disciplinary record and no lates.

I am at a loss , please help

Edited May 9, 2009 by Stephen154

[Stephen154]

Bumped

[elche]

Hi Stephen, some general information about red from an earlier post:

 

REDUNDNACY

 

Redundancy is one of the six potential fair reasons to dismiss you. If you bring a claim for unfair dismissal and your employer can show that there was:

 

a) A genuine redundancy situation; and

b) A fair procedure was followed; and

c) No alternative employment was available; then you will lose your unfair dismissal claim.

 

A GENUINE REDUNDANCY SITUATION

 

The Employment Rights Act defines redundancy situations. Your employer cannot just ‘label’ your dismissal a redundancy without showing that a ‘real’ redundancy situation existed.

 

Remember that it is the role and not the person that is made redundant. Broadly speaking a genuine redundancy situation will exist if:

 

• The entire business closes

• The part of the business / place of work where your role was based is closing

• Your role disappears

• Fewer people are needed or will be needed in the particular role

 

The above will be the ‘first limb’ of your employer’s defence in arguing that you were made redundant. An Employment Tribunal will expect the employer to be able to produce some objective evidence to support their assertion that they were suffering one of the above situations.

 

B) A FAIR PROCEDURE

 

You may have a specified redundancy procedure outlined in your contract or if your employer recognises a union, via a Collective Agreement. If such agreements do exist, then your employer should ensure they are followed during any redundancy situation.

 

Assuming that no such agreements were in place, then integral to a fair procedure will be consultation between you and employer BEFORE a definite decision has been made to dismiss.

 

If more than 20 employees are to be made redundant, then statutory rules exist regarding consultation You should seek specialist advice if this applied to you.

 

Assuming that less than 20 employees were made redundant, then a ‘fair’ consultation should have included:

 

• Ways to avoid the compulsory redundancies altogether e.g. seeking volunteers, cutting costs, ceasing overtime etc

• Ways to reduce the numbers of people to be made redundant

• Mitigating the consequences

• If a method of selection is to be used (i.e. redundancy from ‘pools’) then you should have been consulted on the proposed scoring methods and given an opportunity to comment on your scores.

 

Consultation must be meaningful. This means a genuine two-way dialogue between employers and employees. Thus, if in a consultation meeting you suggest an overtime ban and the employer unreasonable refuses to consider that then it could make the redundancy process unfair.

 

It is the method of selection that we need to examine in your case. With the utmost respect, her attendance record was poor, and provided absences cannot be linked to an underlying illness that is covered by the DDA. or the employee exercising stat rights such as Dependent Leave, then the employer is entitled to include this as an objective scoring category.

 

 

If you feel the scores are unfair, then you should raise this in any minuted meetings, and also in any appeal offered.

 

 

Ultimately, if you bring a UD claim, and can show the scoring was flawed, then you may succeed, and the converse applies to your employer.

 

 

Any union, legal expense insurance, CAB, Law Centre etc?

 

 

 

Good luck

 

 

Che

[hitchy1]

Hello,

my wife has been given notice of her redundancy and attended a meeting today to discuss this further.

Firstly she was told her job was at risk but when she phoned the HR manager next day she was told there was no job for her there any more.

When we looked at her scores she scored low on attendance.

shes had 7 occasions off sick in 2 years.

1 - 17 days death of her mother

2- 4 days sickness

3- 2 days when she found out i needed heart operation.

4- 2 days stomach upset when i had ct scan

5 -2 days stomach upset

6- 1 day stomach upset

7- 2 days stomach upset

I think we would all agree excessive over 2 year period. The problem i have is that they have a policy stating after 3 occasions of sickness that they would be a meeting between manager and herself to discuss this she had no meeting and they had the option of doing this twice at the end of 2007, she was told in the meeting that the company did not feel it was Necessary as she was going through difficult times but if she had had the warning she would of kept an eye on her attendance but the company deem it not Necessary they it shouldnt be included. The next point is they have a sickness scoring system in place over 1 year but decided to use one other 2 years.

The 3rd problem i have is that my wife applied to change from part time to full time in nov 2008 and was told they would look at her records including attendance to make there decisions and at that time deem acceptable since then she has not had any time off.

The next problem i have is i asked for the time period over which the Efficiencies and quality were taken which she did not know although we have quality feedback foe 8 months march through to dec 2008. She was also marked down 5 points for quality as she was spoken to once over this period, we have asked for documented proof which they cant supply but looking through her record she has 6 defective parts out of 25,000 giving her 99.7% the target for her area taken from her apparisal is 98.5% which leds to believe why would she need to be spoken to as above target and the 6 defects spread evenly over the year.

She scored highly in all areas accept her attendance but was never discipline over her attendance and is one of the most highly skilled people on that process with excellent quality and Efficiencies no disciplinary record and no lates.

I am at a loss , please help

 

Can you Clarify if your wife has had any formal meetings or indeed any formal warnings. Even a verbal warning needs to be issued in writing. ie was she allowed representation and has she been given the opportunity to have a fellow employee or trade union representation. The main thing here is the company guidelines and policies and these should be stated in the terms and conditions or company handbook. Redundancy is still a form of dismissal and certain conditions need to be complied with. What are the company's procedures and have they been followed to the letter? if not there is a case for unfair dismissal. The company have to show that they operated a fair selection policy in making a redundancy, if it is a large company they should give a period of consultation in which the issues can be discussed before making a final decision. If you feel the process is not fair or that the decision had already been made, then there is something to fight against. All of this should be in writing to the employee.

 

Log on to ACAS you will get some good info.

[Stephen154]

My wife had a meeting with the company but it was not formal and no minutes were taken.

She was told she could appeal against the deceision but that about it really. She took someone in with her but the company could not answer any of her questions reagrding her redundancy other than the system was fair etc etc.

She has a letter recieved today from them telling her she is only at risk of redundancy but when she asked before last weeks meeting she was told she had no job at her employer S, so i didnt matter what she said at that meeting it wouldnt have made any differance to the outcome.

1, Why didnt they discipline her about her attendance as stated in there sickness ploicy?

Didnt feel it was neccessary they said then they make her redundant on that sickness score.

2, Quality marked at 15 points can you tell me the time scales and show me my quality records?

Couldnt tell her the time scale and only produced 8 months of records which when looked at gives my wife an above the quality average score.

I feel she has been unfairly dismissed based on them not following there sickness policy and not scoring correctly plus they will not provide the score of the next person (so looks like she would always be 1 point short)

Thanks

Edited May 11, 2009 by elche
Exact names best left out.

[hitchy1]

My wife had a meeting with the company but it was not formal and no minutes were taken.

She was told she could appeal against the deceision but that about it really. She took someone in with her but the company could not answer any of her questions reagrding her redundancy other than the system was fair etc etc.

She has a letter recieved today from them telling her she is only at risk of redundancy but when she asked before last weeks meeting she was told she had no job at siemens congleton, so i didnt matter what she said at that meeting it wouldnt have made any differance to the outcome.

1, Why didnt they discipline her about her attendance as stated in there sickness ploicy?

Didnt feel it was neccessary they said then they make her redundant on that sickness score.

2, Quality marked at 15 points can you tell me the time scales and show me my quality records?

Couldnt tell her the time scale and only produced 8 months of records which when looked at gives my wife an above the quality average score.

I feel she has been unfairly dismissed based on them not following there sickness policy and not scoring correctly plus they will not provide the score of the next person (so looks like she would always be 1 point short)

Thanks

 

Sounds like the decision was made in advance. You need to follow the appeals process or you weaken any chance at tribunal, as they would question why you hadn't done so.

In the appeal letter you need to state all the reasons why you feel it was unfair. You should also ask for a copy of the minutes taken at the meeting and any other relevant letters.eg when and how was she first informed?

Base your appeal on

Sickness - No formal warnings and therefore in line with company policy.

Redundancy - Not sufficient consultation process, also what other positions have they considered? have they asked you to consider and provide any alternatives?

Why they failed to answer any questions?

Why the letter says threat of redundancy but she has been verbally informed already - does she have a witness to the conversation?

Siemens is a large organisation so if you don't have a copy of their Terms and conditions, ask for it. If they haven't followed their own procedure to the letter, they face a very good chance of losing a tribunal based simply on process.

There is a lot of good info on the internet, if you search on google under 'redundancy employment law' you will get some good info.

[Stephen154]

They have said there are jobs avalible in other areas of the company but my wife would have to apply for the positions and all are 30 miles away from current location. The problem is she is not qualified for any of them and she told them that , the hr manager said you might of been qualified , at that point the wife said i have worked on your line for the 14 years you should know what i am qualified to do.

She was informed by brief and letter 2 months ago with her section that they could be made redudant asked for vols from within.Then 2 weeks ago got a letter along with others in her section.

She was i the only one being made of risk of redudancy and she was the only one with the scoring record.A meeting was arranged for the week after this was the informal one to one where she put her points across but the compny didnt want to listen to her points of views and she even offered part time , job share , si-batical , maternity cover but not acceptable. She was told to ring the companies agency and put her self on the books and work could pick up in a couple of months and she would be top of there list as a temp worker The cheek!!!

The company are trying to follow the acas rules by having this meeting and only saying at risk but nothing she says can get them to change there minds even when there dont answer the questions and follow they policies.

[Stephen154]

They consulted with employee reps about scoring system and briefed the sections and sent out letters telling people about how thw company needed to shed jobs and there were going to use a scoring system to achieve this but never spoke any employees directly in my wifes section about there positions being at risk until she got the letter stating she was at risk but everyone else in her section got a letter telling them they were safe

[hitchy1]

They consulted with employee reps about scoring system and briefed the sections and sent out letters telling people about how thw company needed to shed jobs and there were going to use a scoring system to achieve this but never spoke any employees directly in my wifes section about there positions being at risk until she got the letter stating she was at risk but everyone else in her section got a letter telling them they were safe

 

Try looking on theattached website for advice.

 

http://www.emplaw.co.uk/[/url]

 

Might be worth getting a professional view before you act. I did this some years ago in a similar situation with a large company. Won the case but only because i had professional help. Its worth getting a view from somebody who deals in this arena as it can be quite daunting in a tribunal. A solicitor will give you a realistic view of the chances regardless of how hard done to you will feel, and will get their charges as well (providing you win)

Good luck

[elche]

A solicitor will give you a realistic view of the chances regardless of how hard done to you will feel, and will get their charges as well (providing you win)

Good luck

 

Costs are very rarely ordered in ET cases, although Tribunal's do have discretion to make an award in cases where one party has acted unreasonably.

 

Normally solicitors fund ET claims via contingency fee agreements i.e. they take a % of your award if you win.

 

You should check any insurance policies for legal expense cover as regards the funding of your claim.

 

Che

[Stephen154]

Do you mean house insurance and such like?

I have taken advice and they where on about contingency fee agreements.#

Thanks for your advice anymore will be welcome.

[hitchy1]

Do you mean house insurance and such like?

I have taken advice and they where on about contingency fee agreements.#

Thanks for your advice anymore will be welcome.

 

Sorry, don't let me misguide you. My costs came to about £2000 which i would have had to pay even if i lost. The decision to continue was based on the fact that the solicitor was convinced the other party couldn't win as they hadn't followed their own or even advised redundancy practices.

If there are clear breaches of policy and process and you can highlight these, then there is no reason why you cant apply for tribunal and defend yourself. The problem might be with the fair selection process. You will clearly think it is unfair which is natural, but a completely neutral person might have a different view.

Sometimes you may have policies and schemes that provide legal services, if not find a solicitor who can give you a realistic view and get an indication of the costs before making a decision. As you get more info it should be easier to decide which route to follow.