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    • Hi, the vehicle went to Audi Chingford on Thursday 13th May. I did state beforehand that I only wanted a diagnostic. The technician out of courtesy opened the drain letting huge deposits of water escape the seals. Video evidence was provided via AUDI cam. The link for the audi cam has been forwarded to BMW and Motonovo. I spoke to branch manager explained the situation and he stated he would sent me an email outlining the issue. Audi state this is not really an issue and more of a design flaw. However, the seals still have water ingress. I purchased the vehicle with £0 deposit on a 60 months HP plan for £520.00. The vehicle total was £21000. I did not go for any extended warranty. I live almost 70 miles away from the aftersales centre in Peterborough. I have previously uploaded the document I forwarded to BMW however it was in word format. I have had to buy a new tyre almost three days after purchasing vehicle. BMW still have not compensated me for the v62 cost as they said they would. 
    • I would suggest that you stop trying to rely on legal theory – as you understand it. Firstly, because we are dealing with practical/pragmatic situations and at a low value level where these arguments tend not to work. Secondly, because you clearly have misunderstood the assessment of quantum where there are breaches of obligations. The formula that you have cited above is the method of loss calculation in torts. In contract it is entirely different. The law of obligations generally attempts to remedy the breach. This means that in tort, damages seek to put you into the position you would have been in had the breach not occurred. In other words it returns you to your starting position – point zero. Contract damages attend put you into the position that you would have been had the breach not occurred but this is not your starting position, contract damages assume that the agreement in dispute had actually been carried out. This puts you into your final position. You sold an item for £XXX. Your expectation was that you your item would be correctly delivered and that you would be the beneficiary of £XXX. Your expectation loss is the amount that you sold the item for and that is all you are entitled to recover. If you want, you can try to sue for the larger sum – and we will help you. But if they ask for evidence of the value of the item as it was sold then I can almost guarantee that either you will be obliged to settle for the lesser sum – or else a judge will give you judgement but for the lesser sum. This will put you to the position that you would have been had there been no breach of contract. I understand from you now that when you dispatch the item you declared the retail cost to you and not your expected benefit of £XXX. To claim for the retail value in the circumstances would offend the rules relating to betterment. If you want to do it then we will help you – but don't be surprised if you take a tumble.  
    • I was caught speeding 3 times in the same week, on the same road. All times were 8-12mph higher than the limit. I was offered the course for the first offense and I now need to accept the other 2 offenses. I just want to be ready for what might come. Will I get the £100 fine and 3 points for each of them or do I face something more severe?  These are my only offenses in 8 years of driving.
    • I'll get my letter drafted this evening. Its an item I sold, which I'm also concerned about, as whilst I don't have my original purchase receipt (the best I have is my credit card statement showing a purchase from Car Audio Centre), I do unfortunately have the eBay listing where I sold it for much less. But as I said before this is now a question of compensation: true compensation would seek to put me back into the position I was in before the loss ie: that title would remain with me until my buyer has accepted this, and so compensation should be that which would be needed to replace the lost item. But in the world of instant electronic payment, it could be argued that as I had already been paid, the title to the goods had already transferred, and I was required to refund the buyer after the loss. And so, despite my declared value being the retail price - that which is needed to return me to my pre-sales position, the compensatory value should be the value I sold it for, which being a second-hand item from a private seller is lower. I still believe that I should be claiming for the item's full value, rather than how much I sold it for, as this is the same for insurance: we don't insure the value we paid, but rather the value of the item to put us back into the position we would be in if we ever needed to claim. Its for the loss adjuster to argue the toss
    • amusing that 'bad economic judgement on behalf of prior party ISN'T a major reason to wingers to move to deform yet immigration is, where record levels of such has been driven by the right wings terrible brexit and the later incompetent dog whistle 'proposals largely driven to whistle to the right wingnuts Just seems to confirm the are clueless numpties 'wetting their own shoes   Has farage bought a property in Clacton yet?   yet concern for the NHS is listed as a major issue even by those saying they are moving to deform  
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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Good point. I'm thinking of inserting it after the current para 13 of my Witness Statement.

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Ok folks, the document at post #597 has been updated (to save disk space). Para 14 has been amended slightly.

 

I think it's good enough. I'll keep you posted.

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S62,

 

Another line of attack is to ask MdR for the name of the person who actually located the document, so that you can seek permission from the court to summons them to be cross examined on the detail of how the document was stored and located.

 

At present this is completely absent and you could invite the Court to draw adverse inferences from MdR's failure to call any witness with first hand knowledge of the storage and retrieval of the document.

 

Dad

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S62,

 

Another line of attack is to ask MdR for the name of the person who actually located the document, so that you can seek permission from the court to summons them to be cross examined on the detail of how the document was stored and located.

 

At present this is completely absent and you could invite the Court to draw adverse inferences from MdR's failure to call any witness with first hand knowledge of the storage and retrieval of the document.

 

Dad

 

I concur... if they are seeking to claim this is the "original" and you dispute this fact a complete audit trail should exist for said document, any major filing system will have an in/out logging record whether manual or digital and this MUST be backed up with a proper witness.

 

After all, aren't you dealing with a sophisticated financial institution here...

 

S.

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You need to know if it was Special Delivery or Recorded Delivery.

They say it was found 'on or around 3rd Feb'

 

Saying 'on or about' with such a crucial time scale is not really acceptable.

 

If found on 3rd Feb it would have had to be posted that day by Special Delivery to definitely arrive on the 4th as SD is a guaranteed next day service.

 

Recorded would only be an option for an idiot to use in these circumstances!

 

You could also ask for the paper trail which must have been created to locate the document as well as the location of the 'off site facility' to see if that location tallys with the location of the post office where they went to post it from.

A register is kept of the times that people enter and leave storage facilities normally.[fire regs?]

I'd want a witness statement from the minion that found the agreement.

 

[A forensic exam might find his prints on the document --if you believe CSI on Five USA on Freeview that is-LOL]

 

They claim it was sent via Registered post (for that read Recorded Delivery)

 

Recorded Delivery is NOT a guaranteed "Next Day" service. The only guarantee is the signature (and that is not always available).

 

The receipt of posting, which one assumes the sender would keep for proof and also to check receipt, shows the Location sent from and the time and date. It also has a section which asks if it was posted after last collection.

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Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Only some little typos to polish off & me being pedantic :)

 

Closing " at the end of para 2.

 

comma after which were that para 3.

 

para 6. "It is with respect the Appellant's position" doesn't make sense does it?? Or is that me

 

Para 7. Witness Statement not capitalised like in the rest of the doc

 

para 9 & 10(x2) & 13(x2) & 15. Respondent not capitalised as above

 

p.12 Witness Statement not capitalised

 

p. 14 possession apostrophe needed for Respondent's

 

Brilliant Shaky & best of luck - can't wait to see the outcome .....

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A very minor point, which may not be relevant (?) is that the "sender" of the registered/recorded/SD document would need to retain receipt of posting (in addition to the proof of posting) for accountancy purposes, unless the finder of the document subsidises their employer! FWIT.

T

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Hello Folks!

 

I trust banks about as far as I could throw a Canary Wharf full of them, so I just cannot imagine that some will not be tempted to simply re-create the records they need, including signatures and names. The harder they work churning out re-created originals :rolleyes:, the more convincing it will seem to pliable Judges who simply won't believe it was all dated from 2010 onwards, let alone 1970 onwards.

 

Given some of the recent Court cases, I suspect many are busy creating records to try and show how jolly clever they have been in the past. IOW, if a Witness does appear in Court, armed with a great big folder of copies of other Agreements similar to the one being contested in Court, saying they took these copies from their extensive records, what is a blinkered Judge going to think?

 

If a Consumer stands up and says they are all recent recreations, how can they prove that, when the banks won't be willing to prove otherwise, but will rely instead upon sheer weight of (new) material. Indeed, I can imagine the banks sending an innocent Witness, who did honestly grab the material from their Archives, not knowing it had all popped into existence only a few Months beforehand.

 

Any attempt to pin them down, and they will drip and moan about the disproportionate cost and effort required to tease out the actual employees with true first-hand knowledge for proper cross-examination.

 

Given how useless so many of them have been to actually come up with any proof of their record keeping, I just do not believe they had armies of real people being so amazingly diligent doing all their filing for them in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s!

 

The Witless Statement by Poopcon de Rancid is ample evidence of how they will slither, twist and turn to avoid saying or doing anything when someone gets close to the truth. They will do what ever it takes to avoid the issue and, in turn, present themselves as a very hard target to hit between the eyes.

 

The thing I would really like to see, is all the behind the scenes correspondence that goes on between the banks and the Courts. Is there any way we can demand full access to such material? I somehow doubt it, but no harm asking.

 

Cheers,

BRW

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Hello DD!

 

I think you've missed my point.

 

The people they will send will honestly believe what they are required to Witness, i.e. that they were told to go and retrieve the documents, found them, and here they are in Court.

 

The people we won't see, will be the ones with first hand knowledge. They will remain nameless and wholly unaccountable, and they will use slippery Lawyers to avoid such staff being called, let alone named.

 

The banks are considerably less honest than many realise.

 

Cheers,

BRW

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Re your post 609, BRW:

 

I think if any one of quite a number of us are taken to court by MSDW it will be us who will be turning up with a large folder of their agreements - all differently re-created. :D (Sorry to digress, S62.)

 

I wonder if they actually would produce a witness saying they had grabbed it from the archives, because we don't actually believe it has ever been in the archives, do we? So for someone to come forward and say that if they hadn't actually done it would mean getting someone to lie under oath. I expect the corporate lot might lie under oath but to actually get someone from, say, the typing pool to go along and totally make something up knowing they would be cross-examined would be dangerous I think.

 

DDx

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As I posted previously..

 

You could also ask for the paper trail which must have been created to locate the document as well as the location of the 'off site facility' to see if that location tallys with the location of the post office where they went to post it from.

 

A register is kept of the times that people enter and leave storage facilities normally.[fire regs?]

 

This 'register would have the names,signatures dates and times of entry and exit--and possibly the registration number of their car.

 

A senior management bod would have had to place the iffy document--if this is indeed what happened-into the appropriate file/folder in order for it to be 'found' later.

 

A senior management bod would be unlikely to visit such a facility in the normal course of their activities.

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Brief update : Witness Statement was served on Respondent's solicitors at 08:45 hrs today by fax. I also filed it personally in Court. Hard copy in post to respondent..

 

ALSO : I updated para 11 to reference Authorities Bundle File "B" before filing. I've just updated the copy WS at post #597 to reflect this.

 

Just shows it's always worth double checking your references before filing :)

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Just been reading a post by oilyrag on this thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclaycard/195090-fingers-barclaycard-5.html#post2798970 (Post 93)

WRT the Carey v HSBC case. He brings to attention the view of HHJ Wakeman that, not only should the claimant produce an original agreement in court but also that all variations sent to you should have been accompanied by a copy of that agreement.

 

If Amex are saying that this agreement was buried deep in their archives, how are they going to demonstrate that a true copy of the agreement was sent with all the variations they have sent you over the years??

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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S62,

 

Another line of attack is to ask MdR for the name of the person who actually located the document, so that you can seek permission from the court to summons them to be cross examined on the detail of how the document was stored and located.

 

At present this is completely absent and you could invite the Court to draw adverse inferences from MdR's failure to call any witness with first hand knowledge of the storage and retrieval of the document.

 

Dad

 

Hello Dad. This could be a excellent move to deploy for trial - but what about the Permission to Appeal / Appeal hearing next Monday ? It's booked for 20 mins and is also for directions.

 

I'm thinking the first hurdle is get permission for the Expert Witness. It seems to me the Expert Witness report - will be definitive. It will be a binary 1 or 0 , True or False.

 

It seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) who did what, when, where, is to a certain extent peripheral to this all important litmus test. Sure there is the issue of "porky pies". The mission this morning was to drop that Witness Statement on them. To challenge their story.

 

Comments appreciated..

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By the way, this agreement stuff is only one point in the appeal. So let's see if they can "pull a monkey out of a hat".

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I've got that listed in the Amended Skeleton I served in November, section 4.6 Guidance...

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Well, if they continue with this, as you say, the agreement is only one point in the appeal, but you are getting some other good ammunition and I particularly like the 'paper trail' idea. I'd be astonished if they did actually send someone from management to 'plant' it but if they did they'd be on the register as Middenmess says, and what a funny place for them to be going. On balance though I think it's unlikely they thought they would be challenged about all this so they probably just created it and brought it to Court.

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S62

 

Don't know if you have answered this before, but is the original different to the copies they have relied on for the original judgment

 

It is in some respects. I don't wish to comment on that further. The real issue is whether that Document is a 12 year old original or some other re-production.

 

Forensic testing will be thorough.

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Well, if they continue with this, as you say, the agreement is only one point in the appeal, but you are getting some other good ammunition and I particularly like the 'paper trail' idea. I'd be astonished if they did actually send someone from management to 'plant' it but if they did they'd be on the register as Middenmess says, and what a funny place for them to be going. On balance though I think it's unlikely they thought they would be challenged about all this so they probably just created it and brought it to Court.

 

I agree.

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What a coincidence, that a case goes to appeal, and eureka they just find that one in time for the hearing.

 

Not only that - I had warning they'd be doing so at the last minute. It's a well rehearsed routine they use.

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