Argos CCA received??

[johno23]

Hi All

 

I am new to this forum but have been reading many stories and have been very impressed by everyone who is so committed to helping each other.

I have got in to financial difficulty with all the rises recently and decided to send off for a CCA request for my Argos card. I am up to date with payments and have received the following from Argos!

 

Please can someone advice if it is valid and if not what would be my next course of action to take, including the letter I should send next.

 

I also received Terms & conditions that have been copied on to A4 that says booklet t&ts 9/05/06 but my application form was signed feb 04.

 

many many thanks!

[WelshMam2009]

Can you attach as an image instead of a thumbnail please John as it is impossible to read. Also, was the agreement taken out before or after April 2007??

 

EDIT: Ignore last bit as I see you signed in 2004!!

[johno23]

how do you attach it as an image!

 

sorry being numb!

 

thanks

[WelshMam2009]

how do you attach it as an image!

 

sorry being numb!

 

thanks

 

No probs...if you upload the pics to photobucket and then copy the urls.

 

Click on the 'mountain' button (4th from bottom right in advanced mode) this will allow you to insert the url (make sure http:// doesn't appear twice) and voila...your pic will appear!!

[johno23]

here goes! learning well

 

thanks welshman

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2009 by johno23

[WelshMam2009]

OK, I'm still learning and I hate it when application forms are submitted as being the executed agreement as, in my opinion, these are pre-contractual agreements.

 

As far as I can tell this is missing quite a bit of the prescribed terms.

 

To start with, there is no mention of your credit limit or APR.

 

Also, they appear to have supplied no t&c's which might have been on the back of the application form??

[johno23]

thanks for that Welshman!

 

they sent me a copy of the t&c booklet from 2005.

 

So would you say this may be a valid agreement or is it unenforeable!!

Edited March 18, 2009 by johno23

[WelshMam2009]

On the face of it it doesn't appear valid.

 

HOWEVER...

 

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 defines what may be sent in respect of a CCA request. Quite often, as in your case, you will receive a copy of your application form together with the terms and conditions and this satisfies the regs.

 

Nonetheless, complying with the regs does not render your agreement enforceable by itself.

 

If you now wish to dispute the account then you need to tell them so and stop making any further payments. However, you also have to be prepared for a battle.

 

These are the prescribed terms which I believe are relevant for credit card agreements...taken from the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983:

 

SCHEDULE 6

PRESCRIBED TERMS FOR THE PURPOSES OFSECTIONS 61(1)(A)AND127(3)OF THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

 

 

PRESCRIBED TERMS

 

Credit limit

3. Agreements for running-account credit.

 

A term stating the credit limit or the manner in

which it will be determined or that there is no

credit limit.

 

Rate of interest

4. Agreements for—(a) running-account credit

 

A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit

to be provided under the agreement.

 

Repayments

5. Consumer credit agreements.

 

A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his

obligations under the agreement to make the

repayments, which may be expressed by reference

to a combination of any of the following--

(a) number of repayments;

(b) amount of repayments;

© frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) dates of repayments;

(e) the manner in which any of the above may be

determined;

or in any other way, and any power of the creditor

to vary what is payable.

Can you remember signing anything else??

 

It may be as well to send off a Subject Access request (search the forum and you'll find details on how to do this under Data Protection Act) as this should release all of the paperwork but will cost you £10.

 

There is also the CPR 31.14 route, which is normally undertaken prior to litigation and I'm honestly not sure of the details of this (again you can search the forum).

 

In short, what you have is not an enforceable agreement. However, you don't know for sure if they have one on record until such time as you force a disclosure.

 

EDIT: PS Rate of interest is not the same as APR as the latter includes all other charges.

[johno23]

Thanks Welshman really appreciate your time and advice!

 

no nothing else was signed! what letter would be best to write to them.

Can anyone else confirm if it is INVALID!!

 

feeling a little nervous about what to do next.

Edited March 18, 2009 by johno23

[N.P]

Hi johno23,

 

I`ve just had a look at your so-called agreement, and personally I can`t see anything which looks like terms to me.

 

It would seem you have an `Application Form` which they call an agreement, and is therefore un-forceable, OR should be. We may be able to keep this out of the Courts for some time. I haven`t paid towards mine for over a year now, and as you`ve seen from my own thread has done the rounds, quite a bit.

 

I`ll dig something out in a minute, and past it up for you to play with.

 

Ciao for now

 

 

 

N.P

[N.P]

By the way, these companies have a habit of sending out their current Terms & Conditions, not the edition which relates to your application/agreement, so there`s a point you`ve notched up already against them.

 

Are there are charges applied to this account?

[N.P]

Right, here we go.

 

This is a letter I sent to Bryan Carter Solicitors, after Fredrikson International gave the Argos account to them to sort out.

 

I have never wrote directly to Argos with a dispute letter, so you`ll need to edit it to suit your taste.

 

 

 

 

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

 

DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER

 

 

 

 

Dear Sirs, Empty Heads and Morons,

 

Reference: ARG/xxxxxxxx

 

 

Re: My request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

This account is in Dispute.

 

On 24 July 2007 I wrote to Moorcroft Debt Recovery Ltd requesting that Moorcroft Debt Recovery Ltd supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account. Some eight (8) months later, in response to this request, Fredrickson International Ltd supplied me with a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The cover letter was dated 6th March 2008.

 

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553

 

The prescribed terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following:

 

1) Number of repayments;

2) Amount of repayments;

3) Frequency and timing of repayments;

4) Dates of repayments;

5) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states:

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

Further more, since the prescribed terms referred to above do not appear within the agreement your client has supplied, the agreement is rendered totally unenforceable, as the prescribed terms must be contained within the agreement and not a separate document, case law confirms this opinion

 

I refer you to the judgment of TUCKEY LJ in the case of Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

 

”[11] Schedule 1 to the 1983 Regulations sets out the "information to be contained in documents embodying regulated

consumer credit agreements". Some of this information mirrors the terms prescribed by Schedule 6, but some does not. Contrasting the provisions of the two schedules the Judge said:

 

"33 In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest miss-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement. More detailed requirements, which

are designed to ensure that the debtor is made aware, so far as possible, of specified information (including information contained in the

minimum terms) are to be found in Schedule 1."

 

Therefore the prescribed terms cannot be contained within a separate document outside of the agreement

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

As it stands, the document supplied by your client is not a valid credit agreement nor is it enforceable by any court

 

 

What I Require

 

Firstly, I require all correspondence in writing from here on; any persistent attempts to contact me by phone will be reported to Trading Standards, the Financial ombudsman service and the Office of Fair Trading. In addition I may report your conduct to the Solicitors Regulation Authority and the Law Society

 

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that your clients do not hold a signed copy of a credit agreement containing the prescribed terms. Therefore the fact that they do not hold such document means that you cannot obtain an enforcement order in court. The case of Wilson-v-FCT sets this out as previously referred to above.

 

Should you believe that you have grounds to enforce this agreement, please provide me with a signed copy of the credit agreement that you would consider relying upon? Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

Since the agreement your clients have supplied as it stands is unenforceable, should you be unable to produce a compliant agreement it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for you to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages.

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days.

 

I trust this out lines the situation.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

 

TYPE YOUR NAME - DO NOT SIGN!

 

 

 

 

Edit it first, then copy and paste it back up and we`ll check it over first, before sending it away.

 

It has served me well over, and over, so you should get a reply of some sort, LOL. Only, be prepared for some hassle from DCA`s, Solicitor`s etc, but we`ll despatch them as they turn up.

 

Hope this help.

 

 

 

N.P

[johno23]

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER

address

 

19/03/09

Dear sir/madam,

Account Ref:-

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

This account is in Dispute.

 

On 10/03/2009 I wrote to you requesting that Argos supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account.

In response to this request I was supplied a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement also does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553

 

The prescribed terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following--

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

 

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

Further more, since the prescribed terms referred to above do not appear within the agreement you have supplied, the agreement is rendered totally unenforceable, as the prescribed terms must be contained within the agreement and not a separate document, case law confirms this opinion

 

I refer you to the judgment of TUCKEY LJ in the case of Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

 

”[11] Schedule 1 to the 1983 Regulations sets out the "information to be contained in documents embodying regulated

consumer credit agreements". Some of this information mirrors the terms prescribed by Sch 6, but some does not. Contrasting the provisions of the two schedules the Judge said:

 

 

"33 In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement. More detailed requirements, which

are designed to ensure that the debtor is made aware, so far as possible, of specified information (including information contained in the

minimum terms) are to be found in Schedule 1."

 

Therefore the prescribed terms cannot be contained within a separate document outside of the agreement

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

 

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

 

As it stands, the document supplied by you is not a valid credit agreement nor is it enforceable by any court

 

 

What I Require

 

 

Firstly, I require all correspondence in writing from here on; any persistent attempts to contact me by phone will be reported to Trading Standards, the Financial ombudsman service and the Office of Fair Trading.

 

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that you do not hold a signed copy of a credit agreement with my signature on it, the reasons for this is that I never signed one. Therefore the fact that they do not hold such document means that you cannot obtain an enforcement order in court. The case of Wilson-v-FCT sets this out as previously referred to above

 

However should you believe that you have grounds to enforce this agreement, please provide me with a signed copy of the credit agreement that you would consider relying upon? Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

Since the agreement you have supplied as it stands is unenforceable, should you be unable to produce a compliant agreement it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for you to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages. I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

 

Regards

 

many thanks NP amended template to the one above!

 

what do u espect to happen when they receive this letter.

 

I have no charges on as yet.

 

I sent off CCa rewuest letter on 10th recorded, recieved the letter above dated 16th March 09 with an application form signed feb 04 and t&c copy of a booklet dated July 05.

 

I am up to date with all payments up to know, but really struggling financially at present.

[N.P]

It`s up to you as to what you want from this.

 

I`m defending basically, as my account was sent to a DCA.

 

The above letter will let them know you are disputing the CCA.

 

If you still paying then they can`t do anything, as you haven`t defaulted.

 

If you ring them up and explain your struggling, they may try and con you into a new agreement which will supercede their dodgy one.

 

As it is, you have an agreement you can defend against.

 

It`s your call?

 

We don`t condone debt avoidance on CAG, but no one`s perfect. Just hollow if you need help

 

 

 

N.P

[N.P]

Of course, they will say the CCA complies with legislation and give you grief about what will happen should you skip payments, but again, it is your call.

[saintly_1]

Have moved thread to the general debt forum

 

 

 

saint

[johno23]

Thanks NP

 

will send the letter off and see what happens!

 

will keep you all posted.

 

If Unenforceable will be making no further payments!

 

Really sick of struggling financially, paying interests here and there, lost so much on recent house prices and paying over the odds for petrol, food, tax etc!!

 

Time to fight the banks off while we have some ammo!!

[N.P]

Have moved thread to the general debt forum

 

 

 

saint

 

Thanks for that saint, me awld bean

 

 

 

Thanks NP

 

will send the letter off and see what happens!

 

will keep you all posted.

 

 

One more thing, have a good read of the letter. Make sure you understand what it means. If they think you are bluffing they will know. Check any spelling errors and make sure the spacing and layout are professional.

 

Send it Recorded Delivery or Special Delinvery if you can afford it. That way you`ll KNOW they have received it. Did this with all your outgoing letters.

 

Sometimes when I copy and paste letters up, the spacing, font and colours go all funny.

 

Keep us posted and have a good read of my thread as to what sort of communication you should expect. Most of it is just general chit chat, and making fun, but there`s still some good letters in to use.

 

Ciao for now.

 

 

 

N.P

[N.P]

Thanks NP

 

will send the letter off and see what happens!

 

will keep you all posted.

 

If Unenforceable will be making no further payments!

 

Really sick of struggling financially, paying interests here and there, lost so much on recent house prices and paying over the odds for petrol, food, tax etc!!

 

Time to fight the banks off while we have some ammo!!

 

 

 

I know EXACTLY what you mean. I was paying Argos over £117 a month and about only £25 was coming off the actual bill. The rest was interest and PPI, which I could say was filled in by some clown in the shop and just got me to sign.

 

They say it`s good to work, but then you just get ripped off by this damn Country.

 

It`s like the Government are trying to Bankrupt us all.

[N.P]

By the way, on the CCA you`ve scanned, there are some vertical numbers down the center and right hand side.

 

These could be account or idenifying numbers for Argos. I`m not sure you want to show them, if you know what I mean?

 

You could erase them and repaste the link.

 

Just a thought.

[johno23]

Yes wil keep you updated, at least I have upper hand, after all its defaulted as the credit agreement is not set out correctly. If it ends up in court i can just say i felt it was unfair the amount of interest being charged when not signed fo and included in agreement.

 

so all good! May the battle commence!

At least I now know i will not be battling this on my own

[N.P]

Check this out, how`s this for a weapon for you?

 

 

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 -

Section 127. Enforcement orders in cases of infringement.

(1) In the case of an application for an enforcement order under—

(a) section 65(1)(improperly executed agreements), or

(b) section 105(7)(a) or (b)(improperly executed security instruments), or

© section 111(2)(failure to serve copy of notice on surety), or

(d) section 124(1) or (2)(taking of negotiable instrument in contravention of section 123), the court shall dismiss the application if, but (subject to subsections (3) and (4)) only if, it considers it just to do so having regard to—

(i) prejudice caused to any person by the contravention in question, and the degree of culpability for it; and

(ii) the powers conferred on the court by subsection (2) and sections 135 and 136.

(2) If it appears to the court just to do so, it may in an enforcement order reduce or discharge any sum payable by the debtor or hirer, or any surety, so as to compensate him for prejudice suffered as a result of the contravention in question.

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

(4) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) in the case of a cancellable agreement if—

(a) a provision of section 62 or 63 was not complied with, and the creditor or owner did not give a copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it, to the debtor or hirer before the commencement of the proceedings in which the order is sought, or

(b) section 64(1) was not complied with.

(5) Where an enforcement order is made in a case to which subsection (3) applies, the order may direct that the regulated agreement is to have effect as if it did not include a term omitted from the document signed by the debtor or hirer.

No Terms, unenforceable agreement = game over

[johno23]

Cheers NP

 

I have deleted the ref numbers from application form and reposted.

 

Hope they are no more!!

[ashmk]

Hi John,

 

Ive recieved this in the past. Its unenforcable and they know it. I havent heard from them (argos and now cabot) in quite some time since sending the unenforcable letter (although cabot the new owners seem to think it is enforcable according to there backward legal team, yet they have admitted to me they will never goto court, so as far as im concerned the matter is now closed)

[WelshMam2009]

Hi John,

 

Ive recieved this in the past. Its unenforcable and they know it. I havent heard from them (argos and now cabot) in quite some time since sending the unenforcable letter (although cabot the new owners seem to think it is enforcable according to there backward legal team, yet they have admitted to me they will never goto court, so as far as im concerned the matter is now closed)

 

Agree...what they've sent is uneforceable but it complies with the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 by all accounts.

 

However, what you need to know is if an agreement (not the supplied application form) actually exists. It may be on microfiche somewhere and they are just too lazy to dig it out. To this extent, a SAR is the next logical step after disputing the account.