chris2806 v Halifax

[chris2806]

Hi all, this is the third credit card company I'm after.

Times are tough and have CCa'd them in the hope of an unenforceable agreement.

their first response was current T&C

and further to my follow up letter in which I said the account was in dispute I have recieved this:

Any idea what I should do next? just wait?

 

[havinastella]

Not much more you can do.

 

Just remember, if you sent a CCA request, they 'May' have fulfilled that obligation. They don't have to send you a signed copy of 'your' agreement.

 

Jogs

[chris2806]

Hi all just got a copy of CCA in post will add below, will someone take alook for me a suggest a response, have not bothered to copy the terms and conditions as they are the "current" ones as they say in the letter, but the signed cca, does this look ok? hope not!!!

thanks

chris

 

will repost letter without ref further down

 

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Edited April 21, 2009 by chris2806
left in personal details

[maroondevo52]

Hi, Chris.

 

All I can see is your letter, best remove the account number.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[chris2806]

this is page 1, printed (copied onto) on the back is page 2

 

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv190/2806dreamer/halifaxcopyofccaletter10001.jpg

 

page 2

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv190/2806dreamer/halifaxcopyofccaletter10002.jpg

[chris2806]

letter from halifax

 

cant post with changes for some reason, old one keeps coming back

 

but it is a short letter saying:

 

"please find enclosed a copy of your credit card agreement and the current terms and conditions for the aboive credit card account

yours sincerely"

 

thats it

 

appreciate your help

regards

chris

[cerberusalert]

If page 1 & 2 are genuinly the same document it would be enforceable, but I'm not convinced that they are, It just doesn't look right.

 

It seems odd to me that they would only use a third of the reverse page just to print the prescribed terms.

[chris2806]

just noticed that there is no date under "customer" signature, could that be of any help?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Chris2806!

 

The Agreement looks a bit suspect.

 

It's an Application Form plus some Terms they appear to have plucked from somewhere else and simply copied them to the rear of the Photocopy of your Application Form.

 

Size and shape is all wrong, but the following observations are of interest:

 

(1) On the Application Form in (9) DATA PROTECTION ACT they say:

 

...as set out in Condition 17 overleaf,...

 

So, where is Condition 17 in the Terms & Conditions then?

 

Looks like something was on the rear of the Application Form, but the Terms & Conditions they have sent are not likely to be it.

 

(2) In the Application Form (11) THE AGREEMENT it says:

 

I have read and agree to be bound by the enclosed Terms & Conditions.

 

That does not say the Terms & Conditions are overleaf, perhaps suggesting the key Terms, i.e. the Prescribed Terms, were within another Document.

 

There's nothing on the Application Form that shows any Prescribed Terms, the only mention of anything being overleaf relates to DATA PROTECTION.

 

The AGREEMENT Section refers to Terms being in another Document, which would not be enforceable if so, because the Prescribed Terms must be contained within the four corners of the Agreement, they cannot be found in another Document and embodied into the Agreement.

 

This is covered in s61(1)(a) of The Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Prescribed Terms must be contained - see s61(1)(a).

 

General Terms can be embodied - see s61(1)(b).

 

Unless they have the Original Application Form, and that is two-sided with the Prescribed Terms on the back, then this is not enforceable as it stands, it's an Application Form and not an Agreement...they've tried to make it look like that, but not very convincingly.

 

In basic terms, the copy of the Application Form does not seem to relate to the copy of the Terms & Conditions. There's nothing that links them together that I can see.

 

I would send them a SAR and a £10 Postal Order, and see what comes back from that. Ask them for absolutely everything they have, tell them to send the lot no matter how it is stored (Paper Copy, Microfiche or Computer Files).

 

After that, then consider using CPR 31.16, see this Thread:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html#post1868913

 

The key is to keep banging away at them, and keep demanding to be sent an actual copy taken recently and directly from an original copy of your properly executed Regulated Credit Card Agreement.

 

Tell them you would like to come and inspect the alleged Agreement.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[chris2806]

Hi BRW

wow, thats a great help, I will SAR them and take your advise.

really appreciate your help.

thanks again

chris

[chris2806]

Hi all just got this in the post today, no mention of my latest SAR request, would someone be good enough to have a look and advise.

one page letter:

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv190/2806dreamer/halifaxthreat11may.jpg

 

Am thinking of sending this if you think it's ok (put together with help of other posts):

 

Dear Ms Gurnell,

Re your letter dated 11th May.

I have written to you on several occasions stating that I would only deal with this disputed account by letter, which you ignore, ( also Joe forest & cathrine Blackburn)

You are unlikely to get a response from me by telephone as I screen all calls, so a waste of time really.

You may or may not know that this account is in dispute as you have failed to send an actual copy taken recently and directly from an original copy of your properly executed Regulated Credit Card Agreement.

 

I was sent a copy that was very suspect, as conditions started at number 6 ! also other discrepancies – so not yet seen a true copy.

 

I am prepared to visit your offices to view the alleged document.

 

In your letter you suggested a home visit from a third party, Please be advised that I am only prepared to communicate with you in writing and therefore, if it remains your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.).

 

Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property, and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass. You would also be conspiring in a trespass if you sent someone to visit me nevertheless. Should it be necessary, I will obtain an injunction.

 

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Chris2806!

 

Many thanks for PM, will respond here, as it's best to keep things in the open CAG Forum so that others can see what is being said.

 

Your letter looks fine, but I would send it to The Company Secretary of the bank, at their Registered Office. You need to establish their Company Name, and then check the address here:

 

Companies House

 

No idea who Ms Gurnell is, but assume it's a minion or even possibly a computer name, as many banks do not even use real names when sending threat letters...and a letter saying they will visit when they know this is in breach of the OFT Debt Collection Guidelines is indeed a threat.

 

From now on, send it all to The Company Secretary, and cut out the middlemen. That way, they cannot deny they did not get your letters, and that they were sent straight to the person tasked with receiving Documents.

 

Send it Special Delivery, as you need to get proof of delivery. Thereafter, should anyone actually arrive, they are trespassing...so call the Police if they do not disappear immediately.

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

Re Letter dated 11th May 2009 from Ms Gurnell (copy enclosed).

 

I have written to your organisation on several occasions stating that I would only deal with this disputed account by letter. Thus far, my clear requests have been ignored. For reference, my previous letters were sent to Joe Forest and Cathrine Blackburn.

 

Calling me is pointless, because I screen all calls, and do not answer any numbers that I do not know, or where the caller's number has been hidden.

 

This alleged account is in dispute as you have failed to send an actual copy taken recently and directly from an original copy of a properly executed Regulated Credit Card Agreement.

 

I have been sent a very suspect copy of an alleged Agreement, where I noted many discrepancies. Thus far, I have yet to be sent a true copy, let alone one copied directly from the original.

 

I am quite prepared to visit your offices to view the alleged document. If this can be arranged, please let me know.

 

In the above letter, it was suggested that you have plans to send an employee or agent to my home. Please be reminded that I am only prepared to communicate with you in writing. Therefore, if it remains your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under The Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidelines, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have absolutely no wish to make an appointment with you.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.).

 

In view of the above, please take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives, or your agents to visit me at my property and, if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass. You would also be conspiring in trespass if you sent someone to visit me nevertheless. Should it be necessary, I will obtain an injunction.

 

I trust that I make myself perfectly clear.

 

Yours faithfully,

Chis2806

 

Notes: sent via Royal Mail Special Delivery with signed proof of delivery.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[chris2806]

Hi all an update

gone from power 2 contact

to Moorcroft who have been sent the same letters

no further forward really, but not too much grief either

will have to wait and see

[chris2806]

Update - now gone to Robinson way, who after several letters have simple resend the application form with the dodgy T&C.

have replied pointing out the missing t&c etc as pointed out above by "banker rhymes with" so will wait and see, they have been quite efficient at getting back to me.