Should I be paying them at all???

[moonhead]

Hi,

 

I just got off the phone with a debt collection agency. I have been paying them £1.00 per month as a temporary arrangement.

 

I racked up this with HSBC and it comes to about £6000, about 3 years i defaulted and since then, this debt has changed a few hands.

 

As i have other debts of a similar size, aswell to other HSBC accounts i had, i wasn't entirely sure which one it was for so i asked him...

 

He said it was for credit cards, which i did have debts on credit cards, but i asked which ones, and he said he doesn't know! this doesn't help me!!!

 

Is there a loophole here i can exploit?

 

Maybe they do have the paperwork..but if they don't..do i need to be paying this? They should be aware of the exact details of what this debt is covering no???

[Rayne]

Straight off, CCA them cos if they have no paperwork the alleged debt is unenforcable.

[Rayne]

Oh and never speak to them on the phone again, never go through "security" with them and insist everything from now on is in writing.

[moonhead]

Can you definately CCA a debt collection agency..as i wasn't sure?

 

When I do that..what am i looking to get back? will it get me into trouble with them?

[Nottsdave]

Hi Moon

 

Take the advice offered I know its hard to beleive but this site will sort you out.

Have faith read and digest then go get em.

 

Notts

[jobmid]

yes you can cca a debt collection agency what is the debt for a loan, credit card, overdraft we would need to know this to give you the correct advice as overdrafts dont have a cca

were you by any chance dealing with metropolition debt collection?

[Rayne]

In answer to the first, yes you can. What will probably happen is they'll send you a letter saying its passed on to the OC (Original Creditor) but that it will take time...bull, they have 12+2 days from letter, which you should send recorded, WITHOUT your original signature, and enclosing a £1 Postal Order. When they realise that they have no CCA, they'll likely offer you a heavily discounted F&F settlement figure, and when you don't reply to that one they'll most probably write again sayinf "bye, sorry we weren't able to extort any money out of you"

 

Just had a quick re-read of your original post, and am I right in saying this one is for a credit card? I would also hit the OC with a SAR as well, find out how much of the original debt is made up of unlawful charges, and claim them back.

[PGH7447]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html

 

template N

 

costs £1 pay by postal order and send it recorded, do not sign it.

 

send this to the DCA, they then have 12+2 days to provide an agreement, after this time you can withold any payments as the account is then in dispute

[moonhead]

It's owed to Rockwell..

 

Thanks for the link

 

I've had every intention of paying back my debts, but as I have a few with different agencies, and indeed have settled some , some were written off, and this has been going on for 3-4 years now, and they keep selling it on to different agencies, i have lost track of who has what debt!

 

He said it was for HSBC Credit cards, which makes sense, but i never had one card with a 6k limit..so asked which cards it relates to (as there was more than one)..and he said he didn't know!!!

 

if they don't reply within the time frame..from what i've read on other threads..the debt is still owed?

 

if they do give me what i ask for, and all is good for them, are they likely to start asking me for the full balance?

[Rayne]

They can ask, beg, huff, puff, threaten to blow your house down, but at the end of the day, the ONLY person capable of demanding you make full payment is a Judge...and that is a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way off yet, and most likely has a 98% probability of never getting to that stage anyway.

 

EDIT: Tanslation, you pay what YOU can afford, not what they demand from you.

[Joijo]

if they do give me what i ask for, and all is good for them, are they likely to start asking me for the full balance?

 

This is the part im worried about but when i sent letter N off to the couple of companies it felt so much better. I sent one of the companies an account in dispute letter and the other one will be sent on friday if i have heard nothing by then.

[moonhead]

Also, is the CCA enough?

 

Should the debt collection agency provide some kind of proof that they are entitled to be collecting for x amount of credit cards and what the numbers for those cards actually are?

[Rayne]

Bottom line is:

No CCA = NO PAYMENT

I'm not advocating debt avoidance, especially if you know yourself that the money is owed, but without that CCA they can do nothing...except make raspberry noises into the wind.

[moonhead]

ok..it's worth a shot then

 

whats also weird, is that i ordered my free copy of my credit file this morning. I defaulted on a few things back in 2005..and they aren't on there anymore!!! there are 2 things..and i know what they are for...but the credit card stuff isn't on there...weird! i'm sure it used to be when i last looked!!!

 

where'd it go!

[Rayne]

Not all CRA's hold the same info so it would e worthwhile approaching all three of the major ones

[moonhead]

ah..i see

 

ok..i'm going to do the letter now..

 

last question..i fear i've bored you muchly already but..

 

if i send the letter..what do i do after the 12 plus 2 days? is there another letter i need to send?

 

do i continue paying them a pound a month just to keep them happy? think i might anyway tho

[Rayne]

If you wish to then yes, by all means, but it should be worth noting that until such time as they produce a properly executed CCA, you're under no obligation to even converse with them, let alone give them money for the sake of giving it, which is what you would in effect be doing. The fact that you continue paying though would also be in your favour IF, and its a MASSIVLY HUGE if, things ever went to Court. You're able to demonstrate your fairness and willingness to pay something that, until that CCA is produced, is completely unenforcable at law.

 

After the 12+2 days you're more than entitled, assuming they have failed to produce said CCA, to cease paying them anything at all, to converse with them, to even acknowledge their very existence.

 

Just remember, NO PHONE CALLS, HAVE EVERYTHING IN WRITING

 

EDIT, and no yu haven't bored me at all lol

[PGH7447]

It's owed to Rockwell.. No it isnt, you do not owe this crummy company anything

 

Thanks for the link

 

I've had every intention of paying back my debts, but as I have a few with different agencies, and indeed have settled some , some were written off, and this has been going on for 3-4 years now, and they keep selling it on to different agencies, i have lost track of who has what debt!

 

He said it was for HSBC Credit cards, which makes sense, but i never had one card with a 6k limit..so asked which cards it relates to (as there was more than one)..and he said he didn't know!!! CCA them then as stated earlier

 

if they don't reply within the time frame..from what i've read on other threads..the debt is still owed? yes it is but they can not enforce it

 

if they do give me what i ask for, and all is good for them, are they likely to start asking me for the full balance? yes but you then offer what you can afford not what they demand, they have no legal right to demand anything you cannot afford, that is for the courts to decide

 

at this stage you then sar hsbc and see if anything as been added that should not have been and you reclaim it back

[ScabHunter]

do i continue paying them a pound a month just to keep them happy? think i might anyway tho

 

I should add here that in my opinion it is an extremely bad idea to make these kind of token payments to a debt collector in default of a CCA request.

 

Consider the following scenario. You send off a CCA request. 12+2 days elapse. You keep paying them £1 a month because you think it might keep them "happy." This carries on for three years, costing you £36.

 

At that point you give up, and decide to spend the £1 on yourself instead. After all, they have still not provided an enforceable CCA. Six and a half years after you made your CCA request, an agreement surfaces.

 

Now, the alleged debt is not statute barred, as the last payment was made three and a half years ago. A court claim is issued against you, and is successful. You now have a CCJ, and your £36 donation made over three years has now cost you £9000 (£6000 plus more interest and charges added on by magic). You will have this weight on your back for decades.

 

Had you not made the £36 donation, the alleged debt would have been statute barred.

 

Do not pay a DCA in default of a CCA request. Start the limitation clock moving as soon as you can. If you feel you want to pay them something, save it up and offer a full and final settlement, and do make sure that the paperwork is watertight, to stop them chasing any remaining "balance."

 

SH

[Joijo]

What does Statute Barred mean?

[Rayne]

SH, I personally hadn't considered that particular scenario, thanks for the correction

[ScabHunter]

What does Statute Barred mean?

 

Once there has been a period of six years during which no payment or written acknowledgement of an alleged debt has occurred, the alleged debt is statute barred. No legal action can then be taken to recover the money.

 

Statute barring is permanent. It does not matter if a debtor makes payments, or acknowledges the debt in writing after the expiry of the six year period - once statute barred, the debt cannot be un-statute barred.

 

The time limit is five years in Scotland, and mortgage debt has a longer limit of twelve years. That is the basics of it.

 

SH

[moonhead]

Thanks for all the great advice

 

Sending round a big box of virtual chocolates;)

 

If this amount is a combination of credit cards..then they have a fair few CCA's to come up with when i post this letter off tomorrow! i wish them luck! its changed agencies at least three times..here's hoping to they got lost along the way!

 

ahh..i can but dream!

[hillards]

I've had every intention of paying back my debts...some were written off...they keep selling it on to different agencies

Put this into perspective - you had credit cards that went into default, therefore you owed the ORIGINAL CREDITOR (OC), and probably made arrangement to pay what you could.

THEY sold the debt on to a debt collection agency (DCA). In effect, the OC wrote the original debt off, claimed tax relief, and was happy to accept perhaps 10% of the value for the DCA to take this information from them.

You owe the DCA NOTHING, they have taken a chance that you will believe that they are entitled to demand momey from you, that they could send a bailiff to take your goods if you don't pay, that they may obtain an attachment of earnings, that they will give you just 7 days to cough up, and will take further action if you don't. This may involve their legal team, and could add further costs. It's all threats, nothing certain in MAY or COULD. Who are they to say that you only have 7 days to comply, or else - else what?

Are they legally entitled to demand money from you, or is this a mugging? By sending a CCA request, to the company making demands for payment, you find out if the paperwork they have is enforceable, that they have a leg to stand on legally. It's being shown that very few CCA's are properly executed, and some DCA's can't even provide a copy of the thing anyway.

if they don't reply within the time frame..from what i've read on other threads..the debt is still owed?

As someone has already mentioned. Making even a token payment will keep the time window open should this drag on for many years, and some cases do.

if they do give me what i ask for, and all is good for them, are they likely to start asking me for the full balance?

They will keep asking for the full balance, over and over, passing it aound the many DCA's to keep the pressure on. They do sell accounts to each other and this adds to the frustration.

So - if you've already shown that they cannot enforce the debt, you do not have to pay them. It's been very much like someone stopping you in the street, saying you once borrowed a tenner from their mate but their mate didn't get it back and nwo they want it 'cos that same mate borrowed a tenner from them - would you believe that? Why believe it if someone sends a letter with a very similar story? We've bought this debt from ABC, you now owe us - at very least they should prove they have any right at all to even be asking.

Given that you can show they have no right to collect on the account, the matter can be put to rest. However, you agree that there was a debt originally, the money has not been paid back, so can remain on your credit reference for a while.

My view is that you did owe the OC, for various reasons they disposed of the account. If they took that decision then that's their problem, they could have had a pound a month coming in form this one accoun t, and maybe in future you would win the lottery and pay it off.

Their internal DCA could happily follow this up from time to time, but should not get silly and start court action, unless they had good reason - like seeing in the paper that you had won the lottery...

I disagree that external DCA's should even exist. They are nothing but chancers who buy up bulk debt details for peanuts, then make demands for the full amount. They rely on consumer ignorance and make it sound like they have super powers - and that's where they need taking down several many pegs!

Thankfully, CAG is here and more people are finding out what hot air is being spouted by the DCA's. With any luck, they'll all get shut down as their tactics are disgusting.

If anyone is to blame it is the OC, for being so quick to write an account off. OK, I can see the argument about it not being viable to keep accounting for small amounts being paid by debtors, but it is their responsibility and their decision when it's written off. That being the case, it should be the end of the matter. How the DCA's came to latch on to buying accounts is beyond me...

 

EDIT - Missed some...

I missed the final part of my 'rant/argument' against the DCA's - so they bought the debt details from the OC. They paid a percentage of it's original value, perhaps 10%. On an original amount of, say, £1,000 still owing, they pay £100. How come they can then DEMAND payment of all £1,000 ?

The OC will have written off the account. They claim tax relief on doing so, I've no idea what amount that is, but must be worthwhile, or they would do do it. For the sake of it I'll say 10% and agree to be corrected if it's more or less. So, the £1,000 owing was now a matter of £900, as the OC has claimed £100 in relief. The DCA are therefore incorrect in demanding the full £1,000 as the true value was actually lower.

On top of this, the DCA has paid the OC 10% of the original value, which I suggested was £100. Added to the tax relief, this has now come down to £800. The OC has already had £200 of 'value' against the debt.

That means if the DCA do manage to get the full amount, the debtor has paid them too much...

Some DCA's like to make offers, pay us 90% and we'll call it quits AKA a full and final settlement figure. Yes, I can see why that's attractive to them. It's still a whopping profit on what they paid for the account in the first place...

I can see this as being a valid part of any defence in going to court, if a DCA was ever that stupid.

Edited January 7, 2009 by hillards
Missed the final part - sorry.