why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[diddydicky]

i've got no money

 

perhaps didn't explain myself too well- what i meant to infer was that the courts have not yet come to a uniform interpretation of the new system (in specific relation to deciding these CCA debt cases ) whjuch we are talking about

 

it is clear that some courts are interpreting matters one way and some in another

[pt2537]

I have to say that I don't agree with that - I don't know any Lawyers - Solicitors or Barristers who would agree that the CPR is still bedding in - with the greatest of respect 10 years is more than ample for a "new" procedural code to be fully established.

 

When I first studied Civil Procedure, as part of my degree, in 1985 and then again in 1986 as part of the Law Society Finals course it was the old RSC/CCR - when I first practised it was the old RSC/CCR - when the new CPR came in - there were some changes but in terms of practice nothing massively different. When I left practice a couple of years ago the CPR was fully functioning and fully established.

 

There really is nothing to be bed in - 10 years is actually a long time in Law...if the CPR had been running for 18 months I might have agreed with you....

couldnt agree more,

[I've got no money]

i've got no money

 

perhaps didn't explain myself too well- what i meant to infer was that the courts have not yet come to a uniform interpretation of the new system (in specific relation to deciding these CCA debt cases ) whjuch we are talking about

 

it is clear that some courts are interpreting matters one way and some in another

 

Well in terms of what the law is the Courts have in the sense of S127 (3) have interpreted the law clearly - there are House of Lords Authorities on the point - in those cases there is no scope for a divergence of judicial opinion.

 

The position, I would agree, is more problemmatic in cases where the court has a discretion to allow enforcement of an improperly executed agreement as there doesn't appear to be any precedent on the point as to when the court should or should not allow enforcement - that may be a point in the Chester cases - I don't know.

[lexis200]

i wasn't suggesting that only people with money should "take the risk" nor was i suggesting that anyone should use this as a means of "dodging a debt"

 

nor was i suggesting that you leave things to chance or take pot luck(although you will be)

 

my meaning was that whatever course of action you take , after reading advice on these forums or indeed by consulting a solicitor you are going to take a risk

 

Taking to task of these dodgy agreements is relatively new and there is no clear cut evidence as to which way the courts are leaning, some are anti creditor some are anti debtor

 

you may have the best argued case in the world but if the judge or registrar is not ofay or has personal opinions about one side or the other- you could find yourself on the losing end

 

to expand my (unqualified ) advice so to leave no doubt in your mind i would therefore say to you if you don't accept the fact that you ARE going to take a risk in taking these cases to court then you would be well advised not to do so because NO ONE on here (or even a solicitor) can guarantee the right outcome however strong you feel your case is.

 

 

hope that clears up the confusion!

 

I have no illusions that you might have a watertight argument that still falls flat (although I would assume if it's a personal opinion ruling the judge when you have the law backing you you could appeal?), my point is that I wouldn't be setting foot in a courtroom without being as sure as I possibly could be that I had what I needed to win. I wouldn't be taking that risk if I didn't have to.

 

Also, I'm sorry if I offended you with my first paragraph before - that was a completely general remark and not meant at all as a personal one. If it was taken as such I do apologise.

[jayjay11]

Can someone please check the default notice sent by tsb on my thread CCa 1974 and credit cards

They have still not complied with CPR and account is still in dispute should they default? Advice please.

Edited May 16, 2009 by jayjay11

[diddydicky]

thats ok lexis

 

stay well clear of appeals- again im nto qualified but i think you are talking megabucks to appeal

[the_shadow]

Can I just ask, should the N244 be in triplicate with all evidence the same as per normal N1 claims?

 

Cant seem to find the answer

 

S.

[pt2537]

yes and a cover letter needs to be sent setting out who the court should serve the application on too;)

[the_shadow]

yes and a cover letter needs to be sent setting out who the court should serve the application on too;)

 

Wow thanks for the hyper quick reply... eurovision night sucks on tv doesnt it

 

S.

[The GodMother]

it says on the N244 who needs to be served with the documents so no need for a covering letter.

[I've got no money]

it says on the N244 who needs to be served with the documents so no need for a covering letter.

 

That's very true but you'd normally send a covering letter - that way you have a record of the date you sent it.

 

It's a matter of personal preference - I've always done a covering letter but don't say on it who needs serving but some people, like PT obviously do - I s'pose it makes it easier for the court...he may have had some problems with his local court and finds it works best that way

[The GodMother]

That's very true but you'd normally send a covering letter - that way you have a record of the date you sent it.

 

It's a matter of personal preference - I've always done a covering letter but don't say on it who needs serving but some people, like PT obviously do - I s'pose it makes it easier for the court...he may have had some problems with his local court and finds it works best that way

 

 

Iam not saying what PT said was wrong but i was just pointing out the forum has these details.

 

I find my courts are useless enough with even the most basic of things, like being open when they say they are or even answering a call and maybe just maybe sending the correct documents to the correct person. So trying to confuse them more with a covering letter will be a bit to much for them to deal with i think.

[pt2537]

Iam not saying what PT said was wrong but i was just pointing out the forum has these details.

 

I find my courts are useless enough with even the most basic of things, like being open when they say they are or even answering a call and maybe just maybe sending the correct documents to the correct person. So trying to confuse them more with a covering letter will be a bit to much for them to deal with i think.

actually, if you do not tell the court who to serve the application on GM, how will the court know where to send the application as on a N244 there is no box for Address of the claimant unlike on the N1 or part 8 forms so the court needs to be told, hence the cover letter;)

[pt2537]

That's very true but you'd normally send a covering letter - that way you have a record of the date you sent it.

 

It's a matter of personal preference - I've always done a covering letter but don't say on it who needs serving but some people, like PT obviously do - I s'pose it makes it easier for the court...he may have had some problems with his local court and finds it works best that way

yep the court refused to issue the application

[Mydogsawestie]

Hi pt2537 & IGNM Sorry to hijack your thread....i have been following your threads and information for awhile now and wondered pt2537 if your posting of http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/134001-suggested-letter-where-claimant.html would help me in my circumstances with regards to raising an N244 myself

 

here is my thread and where I am at.... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/185814-court-papers-help-required.html

 

Really appreciate your help and guidance if you've a minute. Thank you.

[The GodMother]

actually, if you do not tell the court who to serve the application on GM, how will the court know where to send the application as on a N244 there is no box for Address of the claimant unlike on the N1 or part 8 forms so the court needs to be told, hence the cover letter;)

 

The courts have never asked me for the address for the person to serve docs on and have even told me there staff are highly trained and as result know to look the address up on file.

 

Being highly trained in other areas i dont think is essential.

[pt2537]

The courts have never asked me for the address for the person to serve docs on and have even told me there staff are highly trained and as result know to look the address up on file.

 

Being highly trained in other areas i dont think is essential.

what? for pre action disclosure under CPR 31.16?

 

Personally and professionally i feel this is incorrect

[I've got no money]

I think that GM and I have got the wrong end of the stick - we're talking about N244's generally - what PT is talking about (and of course what the thread is about) is Pre Action Disclosure - where of course the whole point is that the Court hasn't got the parties addresses because the action hasn't been commenced yet...so if you don't tell them on the covering letter they don't know wheree to serve the application

[The GodMother]

I think that GM and I have got the wrong end of the stick - we're talking about N244's generally - what PT is talking about (and of course what the thread is about) is Pre Action Disclosure - where of course the whole point is that the Court hasn't got the parties addresses because the action hasn't been commenced yet...so if you don't tell them on the covering letter they don't know wheree to serve the application

 

Sorry if it was my fault but i assumed the question was about a case already in action- like as ive got no money has said a N244 generally. If it was meant for a 31.16 disclosure then obviously i would have put a covering letter in advising full details of the address for service of document.

 

My fault maybe i should have fully read the question.

 

Also something i never seem to understand why do they need things in triplicate when iam always been sent one back?

Edited May 17, 2009 by The GodMother

[the_shadow]

actually, if you do not tell the court who to serve the application on GM, how will the court know where to send the application as on a N244 there is no box for Address of the claimant unlike on the N1 or part 8 forms so the court needs to be told, hence the cover letter;)

 

Yep thats what I thought too, as its being served on Barclays t/a barclaycard there isnt enough room for the address

 

S.

[the_shadow]

Sorry if it was my fault but i assumed the question was about a case already in action- like as ive got no money has said a N244 generally. If it was meant for a 31.16 disclosure then obviously i would have put a covering letter in advising full details of the address for service of document.

 

My fault maybe i should have fully read the question.

 

Also something i never seem to understand why do they need things in triplicate when iam always been sent one back?

 

The copy that comes back has the court stamp on it.

 

S.

[The GodMother]

No no stamp just a compliments slip

[jobhunter]

Hi

 

Is its sensible to use Letter 1 in regards secured loans of around £20,000?

 

My parents took out a £20,000 secured loan from Black Horse in 2006, which consolidated an existing loan from the same lender (from 2003) and added an extra £4,000. Should I send two separate requests?

 

The later loan agreement (a copy of which I have) clearly makes reference to the earlier loan. My thoughts are that if the lender cannot prove both loans enforceable, my parents might not have to pay off over £19,000 which they apparently still owe and which, I believe, should never have sold in the first instance to a 64 year old.

 

I also note that copies of agreements we have include PPI, although my father seems to think he did not take out insurance. My father has been off work since 2006 after being violently attacked in his minicab. He has not made a claim, so I am not sure whether it is possible to begin a claim after more than 2 years.

 

Many thanks PT et. al. for the invaluable advice on these fora. It is all very much appreciated.

Edited May 21, 2009 by jobhunter
Error

[the_shadow]

Hi

 

Is its sensible to use Letter 1 in regards secured loans of around £20,000?

 

My parents took out a £20,000 secured loan from Black Horse in 2006, which consolidated an existing loan from the same lender (from 2003) and added an extra £4,000. Should I send two separate requests?

 

The later loan agreement (a copy of which I have) clearly makes reference to the earlier loan. My thoughts are that if the lender cannot prove both loans enforceable, my parents might not have to pay off over £19,000 which they apparently still owe and which, I believe, should never have sold in the first instance to a 64 year old.

 

I also note that copies of agreements we have include PPI, although my father seems to think he did not take out insurance. My father has been off work since 2006 after being violently attacked in his minicab. He has not made a claim, so I am not sure whether it is possible to begin a claim after more than 2 years.

 

Many thanks PT et. al. for the invaluable advice on these fora. It is all very much appreciated.

 

I'd suggest you get a copy of the PPI insurance terms as quite a few policies I've seen dont cover people over 60, if this is the case with this one its possible mis-selling.

 

The terms would also tell you if you can make a claim after such a long period of time.

S.

[jobhunter]

Thanks for the reply Shadow.

 

The things is after reading this forum for over 12 hours solid, I am still unsure which Letter to send first, Letter 1 on this thread, s.77/78 letter elsewhere or something else..

 

I expect the either of the first 2 letters should come with the PPI details. We are not sure whether PPI was even taken out, as my parents were asked to visit Black Horse offices to sign the paperwork and, they think the paperwork might be different to the copies we have.

 

Thanks again.